RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Ran into a problem last night with a friend of mine while playtesting the beguiler class...
Feeblemind seems to be a little overpowered to me. It's a 5th level spell that removes all arcane casting ability from a creature by dropping Charisma and Intelligence to 1. It allows a Will save (which most casters are good at) but SPECIFICALLY STATES that arcane casters take a -4 on the save. What protections does a caster have against this spell at these levels? The DM put me up against a mind flayer sorcerer (CR 18, 11th level caster) all by myself as a 10th level beguiler (human). My gear was purchased with by-the-book wealth and I had Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment). I managed to get my save DC for feeblemind up to 24 (thanks to Cloaked Casting). The creature had a base save of +16 but it went to +12 thanks to the spell description. It had a less than 50% chance of saving and the DM rolled an 8.
With no spellcasting ability, the mind flayer was a pushover against my vast array of illusions and melee attacks. I was able to tackle a monster 8 CRS ABOVE ME ALL BY MYSELF because of this spell. Clearly there is something wrong here. Am I missing something? Are there some lower level spells that could be employed to impede this caster-killing spell? Please, any help on this would be fantastic. Thanks!
(Following feeblemind up with a touch of idiocy could reduce a creature to 0 in Intel or Charisma and thus allow a coup de grace as well because feeblemind does not define it as ability damage OR as a penalty. It simply 'reduces' the stat and touch of idiocy applies a penalty on top of that to drop it to 0... right?)
Hrm, that sounds like a powerful ability indeed. The best defence is probably a group of other creatures watching your back, since a lot of spells can rend a single character apart. Feeblemind is indeed one of them for Arcane casters; just like a single Hold Person/Monster can drop the single fighter; as such a spellcaster could probably take on a monster a few CR above him, because Hold goes on Will, which is what most fighters lack.
I don't think that just this one instance makes it overpowered; allthough it does indeed strike me as a powerful spell. You should try in a few other instances; see if it's as powerful there.
Also, I don't think that a penalty can drop an ability score to 0. I though only damage could, although that might just be the few spells I read that dealt ability damage.
No, you can touch of idiocy someone right out of consciousness, which is what would happen if you cast that after feeblemind (otherwise the penalty would be negated, as the ability is "set" at 1).
I agree- it's no more potent than hold spells against a fighter, and weaker than dominate (since that "gives" the fighter to you, the caster). Shouldn't the mind flayer have recieved a SR check in his favor?
I think there may be a spell or two that gives immunity to mind-effecting abilities while it is in effect, but it would have to be very high level.
A ring of counterspells with feeblemind stored inside would work well.
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(Following feeblemind up with a touch of idiocy could reduce a creature to 0 in Intel or Charisma and thus allow a coup de grace as well because feeblemind does not define it as ability damage OR as a penalty. It simply 'reduces' the stat and touch of idiocy applies a penalty on top of that to drop it to 0... right?)
Sounds pretty rude, but you have to expect 5th level spells to result in the occasional save or die. On your Touch of Idiocy point, though:
Your successful melee touch attack applies a 1d6 penalty to the target’s Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. This penalty can’t reduce any of these scores below 1.
(Boldface added.)
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I agree- it's no more potent than hold spells against a fighter, and weaker than dominate (since that "gives" the fighter to you, the caster). Shouldn't the mind flayer have recieved a SR check in his favor?
A ring of counterspells with feeblemind stored inside would work well.
Good point. I guess it really isn't any worse than hold spells or ghoul touch for that matter. The ring of counterspells is a good idea, but I think the price range makes it a bit prohibitive at 10th level (maybe?).
I couldn't find any lower level spells that provided any
degree of protection against spells like this which was part of my reason for posting this. I didn't know if anyone knew something that I didn't (beyond just using owl's wisdom to boost the Will save a little).
And yes, Saern, SR was involved, but I managed to get through that without much difficulty since Cloaked Casting gives me a +2 to penetrate SR at my level and I rolled an 18 naturally. (I think the thing had SR 26 or so... don't recall exactly.)
Doug, thanks for the clarification on touch of idiocy. I was getting a little worried there.
Oh. Guess I missed that part. Good save!
No, you can touch of idiocy someone right out of consciousness, which is what would happen if you cast that after feeblemind (otherwise the penalty would be negated, as the ability is "set" at 1).
I agree- it's no more potent than hold spells against a fighter, and weaker than dominate (since that "gives" the fighter to you, the caster). Shouldn't the mind flayer have recieved a SR check in his favor?
I think there may be a spell or two that gives immunity to mind-effecting abilities while it is in effect, but it would have to be very high level.
A ring of counterspells with feeblemind stored inside would work well.
I'd say Feeblemind is a good deal more nasty then either Dominate Person/Monster or the Hold Person/Monster spells. The Hold spells can be lethal but they do provide a save every round. Dominate Person/Monster is easily countered by any of Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos and by 10th level no party is likely wandering around without this sort of protection.
Feeblemind meanwhile can only be cured by a heal spell or something more powerful and is otherwise permanent. Still it is 5th level spell and this sort of capability is more or less appropriate at this level.
As for the Mindflayer - its supernatural abilities should still work. SRD d20 does not have illithids and I don't have my books handy but I'm suprised it was a pushover. That said adding class levels to monsters usually results in a beefed up monster but not one that is really as powerful as their CR would indicate.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Too bad you weren't playing a cleric. You could have just cast Slay Living, which is a 5th level spell that kills a creature outright with a failed Fort save (which is a bad save for many casters). You wouldn't have to even bother with the whole finishing him off bit.
Too bad you weren't playing a cleric. You could have just cast Slay Living, which is a 5th level spell that kills a creature outright with a failed Fort save (which is a bad save for many casters). You wouldn't have to even bother with the whole finishing him off bit.
Easily countered with Death Ward which starts to become ubiquitous (just a 'sec I got to double check that 50 center in the dictionary) at about 10th level.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Easily countered with Death Ward which starts to become ubiquitous (just a 'sec I got to double check that 50 center in the dictionary) at about 10th level.
I remain unimpressed by the alleged overpoweredness of Feeblemind. Death Ward is a 4th level cleric spell, it's not as if the mind flayer in question would have had it up anyway. 5th level spells are able to kill opponents on a failed save. It's not too powerful an effect - Feeblemind's limitation is that against 80% of opponents, it is not very effective.
Edit for Saern: Changed terminology, statement stands. Feeblemind is inline with other 5th level spells, one of which actually kills outright rather than through crippling stat penalties.
I don't think feeblemind is being alleged to be broken.
The question was, "Is this broken?"
The reply so far has been, "No, it's just really powerful, which is to be expected for a 5th level spell."
Also, consider that a mind flayer sorceror 11 is NOT a CR 18. Regardless of what the CR guidelines (Emphasis on the word guidelines) say, sorceror is not an effective blend for a mindflayer.
Because of the way a mindflayer's abilities synergize with sorceror levels, it doesn't get nearly as much power out of it as its high charisma would imply. In fact, the mindflayer sorc is best off using his spells to buff himself for melee, and then start with the extracting. Mage armor, shield, displacement, blink, blah blah.
Honestly, an 11th level mindflayer fighter is more of a CR 18.
That issue was covered with Zyrxog or whatever his name was in the AoW's HoHR.