Hello all.....
This is my first post on paizo. i am a regular poster on the WOTC boards as PunkRockBard. i often discuss the planes, pretend i'm a slaad lord, and cry/moan/pout about Yugoloth treatment 3rd edition.
Lately...there has been some controversy over the possibility of a FC III on Yugoloths. WOTC has been unnervingly quiet on the issue despite various inquiries. You'd think they could just tell us if it was in the works or not. It would put many at ease..even if the answer is dissapointing.
Anyhoo...if such a project were to come about....what would You all like to see done with it (feel free to join in James and Erik!).
Some things i'd love to see are...
1.) The Yugoloths placed across the three middle planes (Hades, Gehenna, Carceri) instead of mainly on Gehenna. This would give the Yugoloths' environments as much diveristy as Demons and Devils.
2.) The Diseased Lords statted, illustrated, crunched, and fluffed! Since their mention in first ed. MM II...i have been intriqued.
3.) The Barnaloths!
4.) Anthraxus as the Oinoloth. Sorry, that Mydianchlarus
bores me.
5.) Nothing against The General of Gehenna, but i'd like the Oinoloth to be his/her/its equal. I always saw the General as the racial cult of personality and the Oinoloth as the de factor ruler and face-symbol of yugoloth rulership in the middle planes. Currently, the Oinoloth is just a figure who rules the leftovers in Hades (i think more 'loths oughtta inhabit their native plane see above) i always interpreted
"Oinoloth" as the singular, ultimate Yugoloth. Oughtta be treated as such!
6.)Yugoloths have more personality than mercanaries. Let's see it.
What about You all???
There's a lot of love for yugoloths on these boards, don't you fear! I'd love to see some attention given to everybody's favorite Lower Planar mercenaries.
I'm skeptical about sufficient interest to justify an entire book -- yugoloths just don't engender the same passion that demons and devils do.
What might work (IMO) is a book on all the lower planes -- covering yugoloths and slaadi (my personal favorite) as well as other stuff neglected by the Fiendish Codices (ooh, I've always wanted to use that word).
Regards,
Jack
slaadi, modron, gehreleth, yugoloth and hordling all can be accomodated in this, as well as any residents of acheron and pandemonium that warrant being dragged into it (i know the slaadi and modron are 'neutral' but they really are sufficiently alien that they are hard for 'normals' to deal with (as well as the formorians, imho)
A jumbled wishlist of things I'd like to see (and in lieu of a book, which I'll happily develop on my own mind you):
1) I'd want multiple, conflicting origin legends about the 'loths to be presented. They've got a story they tell themselves that's true, there's a story they tell themselves in self-delusional self-importance, there's the story their makers never deigned to whisper to them, and there's the story that they tell the rest of the multiverse. Which one is objectively true? Well that my friends would be telling.
2) Baernaloths - their role above the orthodox yugoloth heirarchy as spiritual puppetmasters/advisors, and a discussion of their position as the firstborn fiends of primordial Evil
3) An explanation of the 'loths as the "Godless fiends", and an exploration for their absolute racial enmity for divinity in virtually any form
4) An exploration of the dichotomy of their own self-importance, greed, and selfishness that somehow coexists with their own racial pseudo-religion that puts them as cogs and willing puppets of a universal Evil that spawned them
5) An actual development of Mydianchlarus, and yes, a picture of the Oinoloth. Give him history, give him goals, give him whispered rumors as to what he said that terrified Anthraxus to the point that he stepped down willingly from the throne [And I explored the aftermath of Anthraxus's fall, and a possible return, in the following story http://www.planewalker.com/fiction/entry.php?intEntryID=10706 ]
Anthraxus sat amid the drifting, windblown stalks of the Field of Eyes there on Oinos, searching for a fragment of vision that might pertain to his past; something to prove who he was, or to disprove the secret that Mydianchlarus had told him.
“Anthraxus, you are not now, nor have you ever been who you think you are.” The Ultroloth had said to him. “The Hags who made you what you are, they altered your memories, ripped you apart and built you up again. They did not simply make you into what you are, they –made you- in every way imaginable. So, mighty Oinoloth, if you are not Anthraxus, the one who crawled his way up from mezzoloth so long ago, who are you?”
The hags were dead, butchered by the hand of Xenghara. Xenghara was an exile, and in his wanderings he'd been unable to find the Angel of Desolation. The other Altraloth was hiding, both for his own protection, and perhaps if the multiverse was as cruel as it should be, Xenghara was hiding from Anthraxus simply to torment his fellow archfiend. In all likelihood the other was hiding somewhere within the inner rings of the Outlands, perhaps forever beyond the scope of his kin to find him. Answers to his doubt hung out of reach, even if the other archfiend might have them all.
“Why won’t you speak to me?” Anthraxus asked, talking to himself. “Answer me Methikus. I sculpted my body, carved into my own flesh to resemble you. I reflected you who was inside of me, guiding me, empowering me, acting through me… I had purpose for a time.”
The Baernaloth whom he had played willing host for, Methikus Sar Telmuril, the Flesh Sculptor, he did not answer him. Since these doubts had rippled through his mind he had felt hollow inside, devoid of the presence of the Baern.
His emulation of the Sanguine Weaver had begun shortly after he had ascended to Ultroloth status. He had emulated that particular Gloom Father, attempting to forcibly remake himself into that one in both craft and visage. In the end he had sought out infection, if that term could be used, and the Lord of Corporeal Terrors had chosen him, elevated him, dwelt within him, defined him.
But was it as he remembered? Or was he even them a hollow thing, seeking to define himself, seeking identity, seeking a voice to talk to him, he who was hollow, he who was nothing and never had been? How much of what he remembered had ever happened?
“I don’t know. And you no longer speak to me…”
6) Development of various unique 'loths, both the altraloths, and a number of powerful ultroloths, arcanaloths, etc.
7) We need to bring Apomps the Triple Aspected into 3.5...
8) Dispense of the bizarre idea of the 'loths being almost all in Gehenna, and not the major powers of the Gray Waste. They never abandoned the Waste like some 3e sources seem to insinuate, they spread out like an infection from the Waste, inserting themselves like metaphysical viruses into the flesh of Gehenna (to the point of now spawning directly from that plane as well), and they seek to do the same to Carceri. They view the three NE planes as something of a racial birthright, or perhaps a way of proving their worth to their own cold, distant, uncaring Baernaloth progenitors.
3.xe has done very little for the NE fiends, though the Crawling City was a nice touch. They need to be fleshed out further.
YES! We must garner as much support for this as is humanly possible. Or fiendishly possible I guess...
We all know that there is support out there for FC3; we just have to prove to WotC that sales will justify the expense of developing and producing the book. Perhaps a good way to jump-start the process would be an adventure or three in Dungeon magazine. Are ye listening friend James Jacobs?
There is so much untapped (as of yet) potential out there for the NE fiends that it almost staggers the mind. To me if they can put out (and I'm sorry to do this) "Cityscape," they can surely funnel the resources to something that's actually interesting and asked for. If anyone out there knows anyone in the know, please put in a word for us yugoloth supporters!
Remember: "Fiendish Codex III: Mercenaries of Gehenna" = happy gamers = big $$$ for WotC = EVERYBODY WINS!
People say there's not much info to do an FC3 for yugoloths alone.
Well, if we keep thinking that then there'll never be a definitive compendium on yugoloths in this edition of D&D or future editions, either.
What we need to realize that what information we have from 1E, 2E, and 3E about yugoloths can make about half an FC3 (if not a whle one), with the other half being purely new material. This is a chance for WotC to MAKE yugoloths more interesting to those that remain ignorant about them.
It would be really sad and downright idiotic for WotC not to publish an FC3 on yugoloths. I only hope WotC does the right thing, for once.
I'm a big fan of the fiendish codex line, and I'd in an instant pick up one about the yugoloths. I'm itching to send my PCs on a little trek to the crawling city.
Right now there is a particular Marilith they are after, who is a servant of Orcus that has recently given her alligience to Grazzt, and the party wants her very dead. They should be off to the triple realm of the Abyss to find her soon, and when they pick up the trial I think that they'll discover that a particular Molydeus has "asked" her to do some mercenary recruiting for the blood war in the crawling city, so my dream of a visit to the crawling city will hopefully be realized. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to map that place. Too bad there wasn't some more info on those Yugoloths for me to help plan this adventure with.
Sorry for the delayed response, everyone. i love all of Your ideas.
i do agree that a FC III is a bit riskier than one on devils and demons...that being said....it is probably more doable than any of the other planar species.
As for titles...i really don't think a plane should be given...since i believe that the 'loths claim all three neutral evil planes as their own. "Mercenaries of the Planes" is a title.
So far...the front cover of FC I is a marilith...and a pit fiend (i think right?) is on FC II. What should go on FC III?
i vote for Charon. Or Anthraxus....if they wanted to be -really- old school. But yeah...Charon could be pretty sinister.
I'd say they'd be more likely to put a mezzoloth or nycoloth on the cover, just because more people are familiar with them and they are "generic" yugoloths. That fits more with the placement of "generic" demons and devils on the other FCs (mariliths and pit fiends, rather than Demogorgon and Asmodeus, or some other unique beings).
I doubt they'll make the FC III, but I'd jump for joy if they did.
As for titles...i really don't think a plane should be given...since i believe that the 'loths claim all three neutral evil planes as their own. "Mercenaries of the Planes" is a title.
I'd be partial to "Lords of Misery" or "Lords of Despair".
So far...the front cover of FC I is a marilith...and a pit fiend (i think right?) is on FC II. What should go on FC III?
I'd say an ultroloth, potentially flanked by some lesser 'loths.
So far...the front cover of FC I is a marilith...and a pit fiend (i think right?) is on FC II. What should go on FC III?
I'm partial to an arcanaloth. Ever since faces of sigil, I just love those buggers. Not the top dogs, but much more interesting to look at than an ultroloth if you ask me.
Hhmm interesting input...
If not Charon....a marraenoloth could be cool....imagine a long robed figure holding out a skeletal hand for payment. Cool mojo!
So, we know where demons and devils draw their magic energy from. Devils from the profligate souls damned to hell, and demons from the chaos of the abyss, right?
Where do yugoloths get their energy from?
If there is an official answer, I don't know it. But if damned souls fuel the powers of devils that seems like a compact being upheld lawfully, and makes sense for lawful evil.
If chaos is a pulsing beacon of illimitable mutation from a dark place harnessed by demons, that would make sense for chaotic evil.
Stands to reason then that yugoloths, being neutral evil, true evil, would be empowered by evil itself, as demons feed upon chaos and devils dine upon tragic contracts. Where would this nourishing evil emanate from as a source? A plane? Or from evil acts committed hand over fist? If the latter were true it might explain why they occasionally hire themselves out as mercenaries... they want to be near a chance to 'do evil' in the purest sense, unfettered by the particular leanings of law and chaos. Wouldn't want to know what they do to a fallen enemy in battle. Would not want to know.
A devil might impress himself by mutilating someone, "Look how bad I am! I'm just DREADFUL, aren't I?"
A demon might mutilate someone to follow a deep seeded need to see things come undone.
A 'loth might rend a body to shreds just to 'do the work'. The commission of evil acts might be their idea of blissful zen. An evisceration may be but a feel-good stress reliever but no more so than say, pushing a leaning tourist into the Grand Canyon. Gotta do the work.
Well put. That's what I was imagining. Evil for evil's sake.
Being a mercenary for devils and demons allows those lawful and chaotic twits to do all the hard work in setting up the beautiful conflict the 'loths shall profit from. Why waste time winning wars? Simply assist and speed the devil and demon lords' best attempts at self exstinction and be fueled by this exstinction with each merciless slash. We all know who'll still be standing there when the blood mist settles. Zealots come and go in this world, but doing wrong goes on and on.
Hear ye! Hear ye! Heathansson and The Jade are available for think tanks. Buy now and SAVE!
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Well put. That's what I was imagining. Evil for evil's sake.
It's like Iago in Othello. Cassius was a Balduresque character, and Iago, like Loki, hated Cassius for always getting promoted up the chain when you just KNOW that IAGO was the brains of the whole outfit.
And Iago was just evil for evil's sake. He was beyond vengeance by that point. He just wanted to destroy and bask in the afterglow.
Iagoloth. >:)
Organs outside the boy are terrifying because it can really happen. You're tapping into some intimidating stuff there, which is ideal for Yugs.
D&D players have done more to logically flesh out fiends and their heirarchy than history ever could, though we owe the concept of the architecture of hell to Dante and the pact making to Marlowe. But the 'real world' tie-ins are often just the name and D&D players really did tinker the rest.
You're right though, if we're creating our own names now for our own fiends, you'd think the names would be a bit more inspired. They're a bit cookie cutter, as you point out.
Chlymidianos comes this way! Barhalitosis could not save us!