I haven't seen anyone else post about their PCs joining Rowyn but I was curious if any other DMs are facing this dilemma. So far, they are mainly motivated by greed, which Rowyn seems to be offering them. I plan on testing their loyalty a bit by having Rowyn ask the PCs to plant evidence against Lavinnia for the murder of the harbormaster when they go to her house to "rescue" her from the Bullywugs. She will also encourage them to steal anything they can while they are there.
From there, it will depend on how the PCs act. However, if they stay with Rowyn, I plan on having her essentially switch places with Lavinnia for the rest of the adventure.
Anyway, to my question. If anyone else is dealing with this, how are you handling the switching sides?
During character creation back when there was just the players guide, one of the PC's chose to have her as a childhood friend, so I am facing this delimma as well, the female PC, is charismatic and often the problem solver of the party, so they are inclined to follow her, she is a childhood friend of Roweyn's, so she discovered what happened, Rowyn told half truths, to the group, which because of the PC,they bought hook line and sinker.
It was easy enough to make a villan out of Lady Vanderborne, concidering how her little group of adventures, treated the PC's. Rowyn said she needed the protection, and the group has decided to help her for now.
It was easy enough to make a villan out of Lady Vanderborne, concidering how her little group of adventures, treated the PC's.
Yeah, my group didn't care for the Jade Ravens either. They really were dissing on the idea that a druid was even leading the group. (They really don't like druids).
That and the fact that Lavinnia was "stingy" (she wasn't, they're just greedy) has led them to where they are. I am hesitant to even play out the Harliss connection to the Bullywug attack because I can't see my group even caring.
Yes, the group recognized the fact that they were superior adventurers to themselves, just yet. However, they were really put off by how ill treated they were, it wasn't like they had picked a fight or anything.
So they decided she was the better of two evils, its bad when they had no one to identify with. It was never about the money for the PC's in my group, they like the idea of adventuring, of making a name for themselves, and living up to the legacy of there parents.
It was a harsh blow, and I am not sure HOW they will handle discovering that Rowyn is evil.
I haven't seen anyone else post about their PCs joining Rowyn but I was curious if any other DMs are facing this dilemma. So far, they are mainly motivated by greed, which Rowyn seems to be offering them. I plan on testing their loyalty a bit by having Rowyn ask the PCs to plant evidence against Lavinnia for the murder of the harbormaster when they go to her house to "rescue" her from the Bullywugs. She will also encourage them to steal anything they can while they are there.
From there, it will depend on how the PCs act. However, if they stay with Rowyn, I plan on having her essentially switch places with Lavinnia for the rest of the adventure.
Anyway, to my question. If anyone else is dealing with this, how are you handling the switching sides?
In Dragonlance one of teh themes was 'Evil Feeds upon Itself (though it also feeds on Good)'. If your players start working for evil I'd recommend letting them but making the problems with serving evil clear. Betrayal is probably the easiest and quickest way to get the players to change their minds. Have their new patron take a disliking to one of the party members - some one not fawning enough or maybe a danger to the patron. She insists that the other players kill their compatriot (in her sleep or some such) and maybe some of her goons will help them along with the task. That ought to get them to rethink their allegiance in a hurry - though if they go through with it then your players clearly want to go down the true evil road - you might want to quietly abort STAP at that point and possibly work on an evil campaign where they do yukky things befitting evil people in a pirate city.
If they get unhappy with that you can restart STAP after telling them to make some Hero's this time and not loose mercenary scum.
At first I was kind of hoping my players would side with Rowyn, but one of them is playing a paladin so probably not.
I would just play the rest of the STAP with Rowyn being evil and the party working for her. I'm sure not even Rown wants the Savage Tide to start and they give great adventure hooks for either a Lavinia or Rowyn group.
you might want to quietly abort STAP at that point and possibly work on an evil campaign where they do yukky things befitting evil people in a pirate city.
I don't see why I would have to abort the STAP if they went evil. My thinking was if they go completely evil, I would have them start working for an evil force opposed to Demogorgon's plans, like the already established Malcanthet. Of course, they would be working through her agent, Rowyn. From there, I think it would go along fine. Other ideas could be any of the other demon lords, since I don't think any of them are interested in Demogorgon establishing a toehold on the prime material plane.
However, I do plan on seeing just how serious they are about their greed by offering them money to do morally questionable tasks. Perhaps an assassination of a city watch guard who won't accept bribes or maybe threaten his family. It could get fun over the next couple of sessions.
I do not just start over a game, that is wearing on me and my PC's, and I also feel its limiting them, because it would be like something I can not deal with, which is farthest from the truth, they are not truely bad people, they do not steal from the poor, kick babies etc---they are just fed up with how the 'hero' type treated them, and I agreed when I read that I was like. Ouch! because they have always been careful to be polite to others,and to have someone treat them like that, made them upset.
Rowyn painted a very interesting picture for the PC's, this was what she said to them.
SPOILERS ABOUND...
-
-
-
-
<i> Rowyn's eyes widened as she looked to the group gathered before her. She placed the tip of the rapier she held in the wood at her feet and shook her head. "And they call me a pirate." her jeweled gaze lifted. "So you are working for Lavina, they say she had something to do with her parents disappearance, if you get my drift, from what I understand it was a plot between her and her brother, and I have been looking into that as well." a small smirk forming on her full lips.
"Did you meet her lackeys, ah how she enjoys pitting her forces against each other." she said with a sad shake of her head. "So she offered you a pitance, to dance to her tune, so she could pull your puppet strings, that is truely a sad thing, as I would offer you more than that, to work for me, and you know where my alliance lays, to myself mostly, and the higher powers, but at least you'd be able to keep an eye on me." that said teasingly as she glanced to the thief who'd been staring at her the whole encounter.
I do not just start over a game, that is wearing on me and my PC's, and I also feel its limiting them, because it would be like something I can not deal with, which is farthest from the truth, they are not truely bad people, they do not steal from the poor, kick babies etc---they are just fed up with how the 'hero' type treated them, and I agreed when I read that I was like. Ouch! because they have always been careful to be polite to others,and to have someone treat them like that, made them upset.
Rowyn painted a very interesting picture for the PC's, this was what she said to them.
SPOILERS ABOUND...
-
-
-
-
<i> Rowyn's eyes widened as she looked to the group gathered before her. She placed the tip of the rapier she held in the wood at her feet and shook her head. "And they call me a pirate." her jeweled gaze lifted. "So you are working for Lavina, they say she had something to do with her parents disappearance, if you get my drift, from what I understand it was a plot between her and her brother, and I have been looking into that as well." a small smirk forming on her full lips."Did you meet her lackeys, ah how she enjoys pitting her forces against each other." she said with a sad shake of her head. "So she offered you a pitance, to dance to her tune, so she could pull your puppet strings, that is truely a sad thing, as I would offer you more than that, to work for me, and you know where my alliance lays, to myself mostly, and the higher powers, but at least you'd be able to keep an eye on me." that said teasingly as she glanced to the thief who'd been staring at her the whole encounter.
Evil doesn't always have to be the iconic evil. L. Evil is a manipulator, N. Evil is looking out for number one. Those to evils can be evil with out breaking any laws, or actually doing anything truely evil. They could do questionable things and in many cases PC can identify with "leave no witnesses so we can get the drop on the big baddy." type of attitude.
I really like how amiable and manipulative you played her, I did the same thing - and my party was ready to side with her - minus the L. Good Cleric, who took issue with abandoning a contract with Lavina. He suggested finding he brother first, finishing what they said they'd do before actually joining sides with Rowyn.
Then through a great display of compassion and forgiveness (a good bluff check and bad sense motive checks) Rowyn explained that Lavina just misunderstands that they are a guild of freedom fighters trying to expose the corruption of the dawn council. She even presented evidence (some false - some true) to support this and said that poor Lavina was just too foolish to accept that her parents got sloppy and caught by Rowyn organization. And before they could be publicly exposed a "supposed accident" happened. She suspects Lavina and Vanthus are responsible for the crime, and the PC's are nothing more than unwitting tools in a plot to cover up the children's involvement, and to destroy any evidence that implicates the family.
She also implies that vanthu's conscience has gotten the better of him, so he stuck back against his sister, hoping to financially cripple her long enough as to not harm anyone else.
Now she forgives the PC's for buying into her lies, and asks them to "make it right."
All in all there has been a big debate on who is the real villain within the group.
My group has not made it to Rowyn yet, but I can anticipate that the group will not take her offer.
I have a LE warlock and NE rogue in the group, but the rogue took the place of the informant, and thus, was betrayed by Vanthus and left for dead under Parrot Island. Now he's pining for revenge against Vanthus and the Lotus Dragons, so he will definately not be cutting any deals. The warlock as a LE character is actually very loyal to his companions, not because they do the right thing, but because they are under the employ of Lavinia, and she has treated them fairly and paid them well, so he sees no reason to betray that trust at the moment.
When my PCs first met Rowyn, there were some other issues at hand. First, they had managed to capture a LD and interrogate him. I won't go into detail about the conversation, however, they agreed to set him free and gave him the information that Vanthus killed Penkus.
I reasoned that this information would trouble Rowyn, who would now have a reason to believe that Vanthus may have been playing her like he had been playing his sister.
Despite this, I still had Rowyn send another ambush against the PCs.
When my PCs finally found her, her guild was in shambles and the PCs had all the evidence they would need. Her cash cow, Vanthus couldn't be trusted. She figured if she could get the PCs on her side, they could steal from the Vanderborens as easily as Vanthus. So she made a last ditch attempt, offered them a healthy bribe and waited to see what they would do. My PCs blinked.
They new she had set up the assassination of the Harbormaster by this point. (They figured it out from the map). I even had her tell them to spy on Lavinnia and she asked them to help her rebuild her guild. They agreed to it all.
When my PCs first met Rowyn, there were some other issues at hand. First, they had managed to capture a LD and interrogate him. I won't go into detail about the conversation, however, they agreed to set him free and gave him the information that Vanthus killed Penkus.
I reasoned that this information would trouble Rowyn, who would now have a reason to believe that Vanthus may have been playing her like he had been playing his sister.
Despite this, I still had Rowyn send another ambush against the PCs.
When my PCs finally found her, her guild was in shambles and the PCs had all the evidence they would need. Her cash cow, Vanthus couldn't be trusted. She figured if she could get the PCs on her side, they could steal from the Vanderborens as easily as Vanthus. So she made a last ditch attempt, offered them a healthy bribe and waited to see what they would do. My PCs blinked.
They new she had set up the assassination of the Harbormaster by this point. (They figured it out from the map). I even had her tell them to spy on Lavinnia and she asked them to help her rebuild her guild. They agreed to it all.
Yes I had something similar to this happen. Vanny was using Rowyn and she found out about it and decided the best way to fix her problem was to just let the family so itself in, and withdraw what support she had given, and play the part of the scorned lover.
We had to stop just before meeting Rowyn. While my group has been fairly greedy and selfserving, I suspect they will not join her. I ran part The Mad God's Key adventure before starting this adventure path. As a result of that the party's Spelltheif has joined the Green Dagger guild. At this point they see the Lotus Dragons as a rival guild. I think their plan is to get rid of all the Lotus Dragons and move the Green Dagger guild into the complex.
Well, its official. Their BAAAD. They just got back from Krakens Cove and reported to Rowyn. (I had her send them to track down Vanthus). After telling her about what happened, she asked them to plant evidence that Lavinnia planned the the assassination of the Harbormaster and loot her house. Not only did they agree, they started coming up with suggestions.
I'm going to let them pretend they are not evil for awhile before I take the blinders off.
They are firmly committed in framing the entire Vanderboren family for all of the current troubles in Sasserine.
Actually, I'm relieved. They seem to really like Rowyn and have no problem screwing over Lavinnia. Now all I have to do is insert Rowyn anywhere Lavinnia would have been placed and the adventure will run fine, if a bit more evil.
Well, its official. Their BAAAD. They just got back from Krakens Cove and reported to Rowyn. (I had her send them to track down Vanthus). After telling her about what happened, she asked them to plant evidence that Lavinnia planned the the assassination of the Harbormaster and loot her house. Not only did they agree, they started coming up with suggestions.
I'm going to let them pretend they are not evil for awhile before I take the blinders off.
They are firmly committed in framing the entire Vanderboren family for all of the current troubles in Sasserine.
Actually, I'm relieved. They seem to really like Rowyn and have no problem screwing over Lavinnia. Now all I have to do is insert Rowyn anywhere Lavinnia would have been placed and the adventure will run fine, if a bit more evil.
Ah yeah our party is much the same, they actually want a crack at the adventuring band that they encountered that works for Lavina, (gee I wanted them to seem brash but not to the point of all the PC's taking offense) the party healer, a assasmir who is N, decided that she couldn't praticipate in such a thing, but she would go along to heal anyone hurt, mainly because of her vows, and lack of armor. She's still a tough cookie, and since Rowyn's discovered that little fact about her, she likes having her close, an instant healer without having to deal with the church.
(gee I wanted them to seem brash but not to the point of all the PC's taking offense)
My PCs were more annoyed than anything else. However, they did ask if they could take out any of the other adventurers during the raid on Lavinnia's. Only one of my PCs admitted to me of having some moral misgivings about framing Lavinnia, but she agreed in the end.
The only real change I made to the adventure as written was to not mess with the whole "race back to save Lavinnia". I was worried that if I mentioned that, they would have deliberately gone slower. I also didn't like the idea of Harliss sending her first mate after Rowyn, when it was Vanthus she was pissed at.
So, now in my campaign, the Wormfall assassins were hired by Vanthus before he went to Krakens cove because he had failed to kill off the party to date, and the Bullywugs were hired by him to help him pick up some obscure passage about the black pearl that his parents had collected during their travels.
It worked for my PCs so I'm running with it.
|
So they decided she was the better of two evils, its bad when they had no one to identify with. It was never about the money for the PC's in my group, they like the idea of adventuring, of making a name for themselves, and living up to the legacy of there parents.
It was a harsh blow, and I am not sure HOW they will handle discovering that Rowyn is evil.
Hey, reality is a.... Well, I can't rightly use that sort of language on these here boards, but I think you catch my meaning. ;)
Let them find the truth out for themselves. Sure, Rowyn spin a good tale, and use the PCs if she can, but if the PCs enter her service due to duplicity, they'll be a might peeved when they discover the truth. Such pathos! Such role playing potential! What more could you ask for?
My advice.... Just roll with their actions, the situation will sort itself out one way or another on its own. :)