Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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AOW SPOILERS
Over the weekend, I ran HoHR, but the problem I encountered is applicable to all games, not just the AoW. The players made it through the first level of the Sodden Hold and used about about 80% of their resources in the process. Upon reaching the room with the shaft down to the next level, they decided to rest. In that room. In the dungeon. Despite the fact that they were in the middle of a city with a ton of inns around. And despite the fact that they knew there was a level below the one they had just cleared out.
Their reasoning:
1. It's a choke point and highly defensible.
2. They figured they weren't any safer in an inn because they were already being targeted and persecuted.
3. They didn't want any of the gang to escape or restock areas they had already cleared.
Now, I admit, these are somewhat valid points, but my view is that their severe lack of resources (particularly spellcasting) coupled with the possibility of getting rushed by the remaining creatures in the area outweighs the benefits above. I wasn't in the mood to kill them for being so stupid*, so I told them that if they camped there it would result in a tpk. They still didn't believe me, but finally decided to take my advice and went back to their inn.
How do you deal with players in this situation and how do you convince them not to camp in stupid places short of shouting this is a stupid place to camp?
*I admit, part of the reason they do stupid things like this is because in previous sessions where they have camped in the dungeon, I have felt similarly unmotivated to kill them or they have been in a disorganized dungeon. Plus, it's a lot of work to come up with a good counterattack plan mounted on the fly by the inhabitants of the dungeon.
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I'm about to run HoHR and have thought about similar things. The group that I play with won't even think about camping out in that room, however -- they will want the luxury of the nice bed. They would feel really weird camping out right outside the large room with salt water-logged dead bodies.
I would have said -- go for it. Let them do it. The way I see it, it wouldn't have to be a tpk situation. It would only be that way if the enemy knew that they were there. (Maybe they did and you didn't mention that in your post.) I would have probably kept them awake by having a few of the inhabitants coming "home" after their patrols. If you can manage to get one to escape, they might think about the sense in resting there.
Basically, don't kill them to make a point -- but that doesn't mean that you have to go easy on them.
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There could be a lot of reasons buzzing round their brains, not all of which are relevant to you, or your DM-ing style.
The players could well have memories of overly-lenient or overly-harsh DMs. Both can, paradoxically, encourage this style of play.
Obviously, if the players feel in no danger from the dungeon denizens, or don't believe you, as DM, would dare sabotage your own campaign with a TPK, then they won't retreat. Why bother?
However, they may stay put because they feel they're doomed if they do, doomed if they don't. If they are used to NPCs and monsters scrying on them, teleporting to their lodgings and murdering them in their beds, then why bother?
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I personally love camping out in dank, cold, unventilated caverns, sewers, and the like, and I love making a campfire in a room that will fill up with smoke to the point where it's physically dangerous.
I wish there were bigger monstres than sewer rats down there.
Forget staying at the Holiday Inn, man. The sewer is where it's at.
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Another fact is that you are playing a published Adventure Path, where the players know they are expected to play a series of encounters, of increasing difficulty, intended to suit their current level, whilst providing them with the requisite XP to suit the next adventure.
As such, their metagame voices may be telling them "Don't worry; whatever we might meet, it's bound to be something appropriate to our current level, and therefore something we can beat!". "No point being careful!".
This appears to be a problem that reared its ugly head in 3rd Edition; it always existed to some degree, but 3E really opened the floodgates, by feeding a whole generation of new players the idea that, rather than it being their job to think 'in-character', and search for ways to avoid getting killed, it was the DM'S job to spoon-feed the PCs encounters that they couldn't lose.
Just think; how many times have you heard a player tell the DM what constitutes a fair, balanced encounter? How many combats have stalled, while the group's "Rain Man" reels off a word-perfect stat-block, for the benefit of his peers, and they have a 10-minute union-meeting, before informing you that your scenario isn't 'level-appropriate'?
An alternative to this is a 'Living-World' style campaign, where the DM seeds the campaign area with creatures of all power levels, from nuisance to apocalyptic, winds it up and lets it go. The players are free to roam where they will, and "let the dice fall where they may". To be fair, there need to be several 'safe-zones' for the low-level PCs to cut their teeth on (heavily patrolled areas would tend to have fewer, low-power monsters than the mountains on the frontier), but the players have to make active decisions, rather than assume the DM is setting all CRs at their approximate level.
This should see more cautious play from all concerned...
Camping in the dungeon is perfectly feasible. If there's room to camp, and the PCs have made sure they have at least one person on watch at all times, they never have to leave the dungeon.
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That's the kookiest bunch of stuff I've ever heard, Snorter.
I've been disemboweled at 2nd level by a troll (first p.c. death).
I've been aged to the point of senility at 3rd level by a 1ed. ghost, who I was fighting ALONE.
I've survived a 1/2pk by an ADVANCED owlbear at 1st level.
Gosh, what are they teachin p.c.'s these days?
There are alot of ways to discourage players from camping for the night, without having to TPK. One way, send little nuissance monsters at them all night, at about 1 or 2 hour intervals. This method makes it so they can't get a good night sleep and get the penalties for lack of sleep. After a night or 2 of them not sleeping, maybe they will get the idea that it isn't a safe place to sleep. Remember, you can't get your spells back until you have a full 8 hours of rest. You don't get to reap the healing with out a full nights rest either. So, just send one or 2 monsters at a time and something one character can't handle, yet the party can. Keep it up over the course of their camping and they won't be staying there after all.
My 2 coppers
Would a special ops team plunk down in the middle of an enemy base while on a mission, even if they set up a well-guarded area? Not likely.
I made a mistake a few months ago when in a situation like yours. The party decided to sleep in a yuan-ti. They cleared out the first few rooms, then decided to sleep in the barracks for the night. The session stopped there. I wasn't happy with the way the game was going (and it wasn't the first time I had issues with the characters and their course of action), so I made the mistake of becoming the vengeful DM. The next session, all the yaun-ti descended upon the party with full force, killing all but the mage (who polymorphed into a fly and escaped). Luckily, the players were all buddies of mine, or I think I would have lost my group over that little stunt.
The proper course of action, I now believe, would have been to voice my opinion of the situation, and they probably would have retreated to town and everything would have been fine.
In a situation where your party pulls a move like resting in the dungeon, whether for good reasons or stupidity, you have to think about whether the enemy would be likely to counterattack, in what fasion, and also what precedent you'll be setting with this action. In a large, sprawling dungeon (more along the lines of a region of the Underdark, and thus more like a wilderness than a dungeon), camping with a watch isn't too bad of an idea.
In bases, forts, hostile cities, etc., it's extremely stupid under any but the most dire circumstances (meaning you're trapped behind enemy lines, and just try to find a place to hide and hope you aren't noticed).
In a typical dungeon with organized, intelligent inhabitants, the likely course of events should be as follows:
Discovery: Dungeons aren't static. Unless the party has taken pains to hide their presence and location, they're likely to be discovered. Even if they do take such pains, the chance remains, dependant on the nature of their foe. Someone on patrol or simply wandering from place to place (dependant on the foe and where the party is resting), is likely to discover the party. If their discoverer is confident, he may try to capture or eliminate the party on his own (likely resulting in his death). If not confident in his ability to subdue the intruders, the discoverer likely attempts to get reinforcements. If the party should slay their discoverer, they have gained a respite, but should sincerely consider leaving, as the absence of their discoverer will be noted by the dungeon's other residents before too long.
Attempted Capture/Elimination: When it is noted that one of their number is missing, someone in the dungeon should issue a search for the absentee. This could simply be another person sent to look into what's taking so long (in which case, the party more or less replays the initial event of this chain), or a full-blown scouting party, ready for potential threats. If a simple check is performed and that member of the dungeon also fails to report with haste, the dungeon residents will know that something is going on, issue a scouting party, and set about informing whatever command structure exists as to the potential danger.
The party should be able to beat the scouting party sent to find them, but only barely, and perhaps with moderate or severe casualties. Nevertheless, this should serve to let them know that they really aren't wanted and should leave with all haste.
Alarm Raising: The search party should be given a few minutes, as appropriate for the situation, to complete their sweep. When they fail to return, the command structure is notified, and the dungeon goes to full alert, mobilizing whatever battle plans the denizens have. This should give the party a few minutes to slip out during the structured chaos, with no meaningful encounters (if any, they should simply serve as DM prods to get the party out of the dungeon ASAP).
Full Assault: If, for some reason, the party is still in the dungeon when the denizens have mobilized themselves, they will find themselves the targets of wave after wave of enemies. After the first or second wave encounters the party, the rest of the dungeon inhabitants should be able to figure out where the party is, in which case a large force is likely to arrive within a few minutes, which will likely spell doom for the PCs.
This structure gives the party several chances to escape without a TPK, while still conveying the sense of danger they should feel in such a situation. It also sets a good precedent for the party. They should be encouraged to think about the situation they are in, and make the appropriate conclusions. Resting in a tomb filled with mindless undead, constructs, and traps is likely safe, since they aren't going to wander around or organize. Dungeons of animal-intellect or disorganized monsters are less safe, but not likely to mobilize themselves as described above. Resting within an enemy fortification, inhabited by militant, organized, and hostile creatures, is about the dumbest thing you could do.
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I don't mean to be the devil's advocate here, but...
It's hard to talk about this without an exact example, but if you withdraw past the hypothetical bottleneck of the "dungeon entrance," it would be silly to think that an organized tribe of orcs/kobolds/goblins/yuan-ti/what-have-you wouldn't garrison and defend it with an extreme force concentration.
So getting back in as it were, could be just as bad as hunkering down in a well-defended room, if not worse.
I know that if I was king orc and subject to an incursion and withdrawal in such circumstances, every last orc would be on high alert at the dungeon entrance for the second go around.
And any orc who was caught sleeping would wake up as an adornment before my kingly orcish throne.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Thanks for the responses. In regards to some of the questions raised, the party does post guards at night and the foes are smart enough and have enough information to recognize the invastion before the party rests fully.
I guess maybe what bugs me about camping in the dungeon is that I feel like it calls for some sort of response, particularly with an organized intelligent foe. I think Saern did a terrific job summarizing the response and that is how I would like to run things in an ideal world. The problem I find is when the rubber meets the road, the amount of thinking I need to do (how does this organization respond to this invasion given its resources and the terrain) is disproportionate to the amount of time I have to do it in (the amount of time it takes the players to figure out their spells for the next day).
I have used variations on the kill-off-the-scouts-until-someone-important-notices-you method, but the difficulty with those is that they waste a substantial amount of game time. And maybe that's my other issue - I can't stand random encounters because with they eat up a lot of game time for no good reason. The idea of stringing together single scouts then scouting parties then assault teams is a good one, but a bit of a grind on game speed.
Anyway, I appreciate the responses. I was worried I was missing something easy and obvious to drive it into my players' heads that camping isn't the best idea.
There are alot of ways to discourage players from camping for the night, without having to TPK. One way, send little nuissance monsters at them all night, at about 1 or 2 hour intervals. This method makes it so they can't get a good night sleep and get the penalties for lack of sleep.
That's an okay way to handle it, IMO, as long as the DM is being fair about it. In other words, there actually are plenty of "nuisance monsters" in the area, those monsters actually have the ability to detect the PCs, those monsters would actually have the desire to engage them in combat, etc.
Otherwise, the DM is just being a petulant jerk.
After a night or 2 of them not sleeping, maybe they will get the idea that it isn't a safe place to sleep. Remember, you can't get your spells back until you have a full 8 hours of rest.
That's true for arcane casters, but not divine. :)
How do you deal with players in this situation and how do you convince them not to camp in stupid places short of shouting this is a stupid place to camp?
I might just prevent them from resting. Have them roll a WIS check (DC fairly low) or K:Dungeoneering and tell the party that they're so stressed from the possibility of imminent doom that they would fail to garner any benefits from attempting to rest in the dungeon. If the players fail to heed their own characters' advice, make it a reality. You don't have to kill anyone, just set up such a racket trying to batter down the door or dig through the wall/floor/ceiling that no one regains hit points or spells. If you're feeling merciful, allow them to make a quick escape and they should get the idea.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I don't mean to be the devil's advocate here, but...
It's hard to talk about this without an exact example, but if you withdraw past the hypothetical bottleneck of the "dungeon entrance," it would be silly to think that an organized tribe of orcs/kobolds/goblins/yuan-ti/what-have-you wouldn't garrison and defend it with an extreme force concentration.
So getting back in as it were, could be just as bad as hunkering down in a well-defended room, if not worse.
I know that if I was king orc and subject to an incursion and withdrawal in such circumstances, every last orc would be on high alert at the dungeon entrance for the second go around.
And any orc who was caught sleeping would wake up as an adornment before my kingly orcish throne.
That's my players position and is a valid point. Once again, I am my own worse enemy because when I ran RtToEE, I brutalized them when they retreated from an area and gave me 3 days to have the NPC bad guys entrench. I game very close to a tpk with foes that were 1-2 CR's below the party level.
Maybe the issue comes down to whether the PC's can control the strategic position or whether the NPC's can do so. It seems like the answer to that question is less static than I would like and that the biggest challenge on my end is figuring out how a dynamic organization responds to either scenario.
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That's the kookiest bunch of stuff I've ever heard, Snorter.
Kooky?
When I hear the term 'kooky', I think of a ditzy blonde, like Goldie Hawn?I've been disemboweled at 2nd level by a troll (first p.c. death).
I've been aged to the point of senility at 3rd level by a 1ed. ghost, who I was fighting ALONE.
I've survived a 1/2pk by an ADVANCED owlbear at 1st level.
Gosh, what are they teachin p.c.'s these days?
They sure ain't teachin' them survival skills, that's for sure.
You only have to see the threads where someone asks "What's all this talk about 10' poles...?" to see that.There was also an editorial in Knights of the Dinner Table, where Jolly was bemoaning the fact that young players kept asking him why he had half the kit on his equipment list, and seemed genuinely in awe, when they found they didn't have to dumbly blunder into every trap, but could be pro-actively searching and disable them.
I routinely bought/stole/confiscated packs of thieves' tools, no matter what class I played. They're not THIEVING tools, anyway, they're SURVIVAL tools, just like every woodsman feels the need to have a gizmo with 100 different doodads on it, these packs were essential, basic kit.
I also didn't restrict myself to just writing 'thieves' tools' on my sheet; I actually had a list of exactly what was in it (based on an article in White Dwarf 45). You knew exactly how many screwdrivers, picks, prybars etc you had (especially if you left one in the jailer's skull...). Regardless of skill level or DC, some traps can be bypassed, or triggered to fire at empty air, needle-holes filled with chewing gum, falling blocks wedged with pitons or props, etc.
That's how we survived!
And that's why I think the 'Disable Device' DCs are a bunch of arse.
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Well done, Saern!
You captured my thoughts very well.
One thing that occurs to me; while we (or at least I) are very quick to denounce players metagaming (in the sense of "We know we can survive, because we know the opposition is the right CR"), we often forget the flipside of this; namely, that DMs can also metagame, by allowing their precious NPCs/monsters more information than they should have.
I would expect a dungeon boss with at least half a brain to be aware of the layout of his lair, along with secret passages, traps, conveniently-sized rooms.
However, many DMs can find themselves coordinating their attacks a little too well...maybe relieving some frustration at all the times the PCs have waltzed through an encounter that should have given them pause?
A good example of this is in spell targetting; does the DM go for the 'logical' target, or the one he secretly knows has the worst save? After all, the evil cleric doesn't know that the PC fighter is actually high Wis and has Iron Will, does he? He ought to think "Meathead!", and fire away with command, cause fear, hold person, etc. And if he fails to succumb, shouldn't he simply suspect that the PC rolled well for his save, and waste another attempt? While the party rogue, who does have the willpower of a toad, is ignored (much to his relief).
Also, if we are to ask the players to forget about CR and EL, and accept the possibility that some enemies may be out of their league, then should we not also ask the same of their opponents? A boss may not be keen to throw his life away, fighting a bunch of psycopaths, who are so sure of themselves, they don't retreat?
Some expendable troops could be sent to test their mettle, but this could work to the PC's advantage...if the boss sees a high level spell cast, he may overestimate the PC power and retreat from them! He won't know that it was a scroll far in excess of the party level (used with a lucky caster level check).
Or more amusingly, his minions may not take too kindly to being used as sacrificial bait, and agree between themselves to wait a while, before going back with an exagerated account of the PCs abilities...
"It's no good, boss; We tried shooting them, but they had this swirly force-field that stopped everything...so we came home"
(Boss)" What colour?"
"Err...it was all sorts of colours, all swirling together, like? All our arrows just disappeared..?"
(Boss)" Gaaahh! Prismatic Sphere! What am I up against?"
(starts packing bags...).
A lot of people have been talking about camping in the dungeon as being tactically unsound and have been using well-organized dungeons as an example. Gary Gygax back in the 1st Ed. DMG talked about this exact same thing, but he looked as several different kinds of dungeons.
I think there are a few things that a few people haven't considered:
1. Some dungeons are indeed static environments. A crypt where all the undead are locked behind iron doors and all the golems are stationed in a particular area is a static dungeon, as is a cave system where the scrags living in the sump at one end don't bother the necromancer working in his quiet cave in the other. Since the two groups leave each other alone, PCs may get away with killing one group and resting in their area without alerting the other group (at least for the 8 hours of rest time).
2. Some PCs may think that they are on a schedule or are racing against the clock. If they feel this way or actually have these limits imposed on them then they feel that resting in the dungeon is the most expedient option.
3. Some dungeons are so far removed from 'safety' that resting away from them is difficult. No one wants to have to retrace their steps through 10 miles of cave to rest for 8 hours. The fact that most of the adventures these days have small dungeons is so that PCs can withdraw to a safe environment.
4. Some spells were more or less specifically designed for dungeon resting. Think about spells like Leomund's secure shelter or rope trick. Then there are spells like illusory wall and alarm. Both highly useful for dungeon resting.
I guess what Im trying to say is that its not always bad to rest in a dungeon.
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Kooky?
When I hear the term 'kooky', I think of a ditzy blonde, like Goldie Hawn?
Well, unless it's also "altogether ooky", of course.
They sure ain't teachin' them survival skills, that's for sure.
(SNIP)
No kidding. I mean, how many KTDs (Kids These Days) have actually thought seriously about how to best survive the opening of a possibly trapped chest*?
IME, you should use an A-frame and a rope to open the chest (the A-frame is to redirect the force vector appropriately), and arrange to be above the floor and diagonally to the rear of the chest. You should be more than 10 feet away if you can manage it, hold your breath, and ready an action to run at the first sound of a hiss. Against the more normal sorts of traps, that will solve most of the problems even if you can't disarm, identify, or even locate them.
BTW, even if your players get creative about this stuff, you shouldn't necessarily react much, since the population sample of D&D players indicates that nearly no thieves will go to these lengths. (Which goes to Snorter's point about DM metagaming, of course.)
* That is to say, "a chest"; the "possibly trapped" part is redundant.
There's a Campaign Workbook article in Dungeon #124 titled "Resting on the Run," which provides optional rules and suggestions for when PCs decide to camp in a dungeon, including rules pertaining to factors that affect the quality of sleep (and, in turn, how many spells or hit points a character might regain).
Re: the hassle of actually carrying out the aforementioned battle plan. The DM doesn't really have to sit and think out how the situation will play out. My recommendation of how to "fake it is this:
Let the party rest an hour or two.
Then some mook comes along, which either runs or fights, but is pathetic. All this does is let the party know that the gig is up.
If the party then seeks to try and get out, let them, although mentioning various sounds, noises, and other things making it apparent that they are in danger. There isn't actually any threat, but they don't need to know that.
If they continue to dally, throw a number of enemies at the party equal to their number and of relatively competative CRs. Note that for the sake of convenience, these scouts don't actually have to have existed before this very encounter, and may in fact be the stat block of another creature with similar abilities, simply redescribed by the DM for ease.
Now if the party tries to leave, again, let them. Once more, they sense that they are on the edge of a knife, but get away all right.
If they should continue to dally for some reason, then just take your stat blocks for the BBEG, his bodyguards, and a bunch of lesser minion and throw them at the party.
That should provide the message you want without the work of actually coming up with a battle plan. Don't worry if your encounters are a little weak; they're just supposed to be saying "Leave!" to the party.
Re: PCs and NPCs metagaming about each other's power levels. I actually like this level of dynamism. It makes it apparent that the other people in the world aren't just numbers on the DMs notes, but actually have thoughts and feelings of their own.
What actions an NPC will take with the party really depend on who they are, who the party members are, and how much information the NPC has regarding the party. However, I typically consider people of 8th level or higher to be elite members of society, and cognizant of this. Like the party members, they hold the assumption that they can generally overcome most opposition they come across. Higher level NPCs will be increasingly more self-confident. However, both PCs and NPCs sometimes find themselves facing an undeniably superior openent (at least in their eyes), at take appropriate measures.
Where is F2K when you need him? He's a big advocate of the Dynamic Dungeon (TM).
My feeling is that a dungeon (or any other adventure local) is a real environment and should essentially be played as such. Part of prep should be at least a basic idea of what the creatures that live in the dungeon are supposed to be doing for the next few days and what they do during a normal day.
Hence I would make the response appropriate to the dungeon in question, the place the PCs choose to stop and just what they have done before halting. In some cases the PCs are perfectly safe. At other times the PCs will face an appropriate reaction from the dungeons denizens.
Its certainly true that the players are caught in a Hobbesian choice here, if they leave chances are the dungeon will be better defended later but they should have thought of that when they launched their attack. At least with my players the usual problem was that they would go absolutely ape in every encounter they come upon until they (quickly) ran out of power – they have learned better.
Generally speaking the adventuring party has only one really good advantage going for it. They are striking fast and with surprise. Their opponents have not had a chance to appropriately plan their defences. The PCs need to make the most use of that and balance their expenditure of power in order to get the job done - as well as learn to recognize when they have crossed demarcation points in a dungeon where they have an opportunity to stop without being in undue risk. If a dungeon is laid out logically these sorts of things can be discerned by the PCs and they can make rational choices regarding when, where and if they should stop and rest.
While the 'dungeon reacts' part of the adventure may seem like a waste I have found that sometimes that is in fact the most exciting part of an adventure. The players are low on resources and that can make for exciting gaming - furthermore they are on the defensive for once and that can be a nice change of pace.
I don't advocate adding critters that appear out of thin air or anything however. I don't think that teaching players how to function in a dungeon should be a matter of the players having to learn what the DM wants. I really don't believe in grudge monsters and that's what is really happening when the DM makes monsters appear out of thin air that are not part of the adventure in order punish players for sleeping in the dungeon. In this circumstance its not at all reality that sleeping in the dungeon is bad its just the DM making a judgement call based on what amounts to a whim.
It's not a hard and fast rule that the dungeon is a bad place to sleep nor is it a hard and fast rule that the defenders will be better prepared the next time the PCs attack. However it certainly could be the case - I think a DM should have some idea what the answers are to these events before he ever runs the adventure and they should logically follow from what lives in there and how they behave normally. In this manner a counter attack is not a random encounter but simply a dynamic part of the adventure as a whole.
I don't advocate adding critters that appear out of thin air or anything however. I don't think that teaching players how to function in a dungeon should be a matter of the players having to learn what the DM wants. I really don't believe in grudge monsters and that's what is really happening when the DM makes monsters appear out of thin air that are not part of the adventure in order punish players for sleeping in the dungeon. In this circumstance its not at all reality that sleeping in the dungeon is bad its just the DM making a judgement call based on what amounts to a whim.
I tend to agree, and to qualify my above post, I was only recommending "fabricating" monsters to reduce stress on the DM, since there were comments about the mental strain of trying to decide how the dungeon would react. In this case, the foes presented to the party are not really meant to be challenging, but just relate the DM's message that the party has choosen poorly by stopping to rest here. It should still make sense for the situation so that logical choices can be made. The opponents go down easy enough, but the party understands that they've been made and need to skedattle (sp?).
But, yes, no grudge monsters. If you have the time to make plans of how the dungeon reacts before hand, do so.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If a dungeon is laid out logically these sorts of things can be discerned by the PCs and they can make rational choices regarding when, where and if they should stop and rest.
Ah, that's where you've made an incorrect assumption - HoHR is many things, but logical is not one of them. ;-)
It is definitely easier to handle the situation when I am running my own material. Published adventures seem to have a lot of extraneous rooms and encounters which is what can throw me for a loop and they are almost always built such that it is impossible to make it through them without resting at least once.
I am also a big fan of the dynamic dungeon and do try to consider how the inhabitants will react to the adventurers. It seems like resting during a dungeon encounter is the element that most strains believability, whether it occurs inside or outside of the dungeon.
That's why it is almost always better to have most of a dungeon delve involve relatively weak encounters and wear down the party by attrition, then have the BBEG be CR appropriate. It just works so much better that way. Obviously, derivations abound, but keeping this as the default model really helps.
And you're right, HoHR isn't necessarily logical in its design, nor are many published adventures. I know they have a word count limit and all, but I often feel that published adventures fall into the trap of having monsters just waiting around for the PCs to come and kill them.
My group just recently realized rope trick was just the thing for resting mid-adventure (amazingly enough within HOHR, but down the tube... they didn't want to traverse that room again for understandable reasons).
And here I was thinking of what the bad guys would be doing knowing there was a group of adventurers somewhere in their dungeon.
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there are certainly situations in which camping in the dungeon is not only not stupid, it's actually advisable. as many have said, often the adventure site is many miles from the nearest "safe" resting area. other times, you have spells or other protections that can make it possible to have some degree of safety in the dungeon. there are times when it's best to do so.
in my adventuring AND dm'ing, i've found times in which the SAFEST place a party could possibly hope to get any rest at all is in the midst of the dungeon. if you find a secret room with only one entrance, and it is warded, locked, and guarded by an active watch all night, that's pretty safe. maybe even safer than you'd get in an inn, where characters tend to let their guard down.
I remember one particular adventure, in Myth Drannor I think, where there was a pathway warded by several very powerful traps that would only spring if creatures with evil alignments tripped them. Needless to say, that made for a very advantageous resting spot and base camp during our time there, once we understood how the traps worked.
there are, of course, also times when it's NOT best to do so. as many have mentioned, when the dungeon complex is occupied by an organized enemy force that makes regular patrols and such, camping in the midst of that is suicidal, as it should be, and dm's should be very clear on those grounds in cases where pc's should know better, and then punishing those who choose to do so anyway.
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There's a Campaign Workbook article in Dungeon #124 titled "Resting on the Run," which provides optional rules and suggestions for when PCs decide to camp in a dungeon, including rules pertaining to factors that affect the quality of sleep (and, in turn, how many spells or hit points a character might regain).
What would we do without you Heathensson? ;-)
Ah, that's where you've made an incorrect assumption - HoHR is many things, but logical is not one of them. ;-)
I've read, but not played, HoHR and I see your point. Truthfully I felt HoHR was my least favourite of the AoWs material.
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There's a Campaign Workbook article in Dungeon #124 titled "Resting on the Run," which provides optional rules and suggestions for when PCs decide to camp in a dungeon, including rules pertaining to factors that affect the quality of sleep (and, in turn, how many spells or hit points a character might regain).What would we do without you Heathensson? ;-)
I'm tired. It's snowing. 2 hour drive home from work.
(lol)
I say let 'em learn the hard way. I had a group going through Night Below and were half way through the derro lair when they decided to rest. I questioned their decision many times ("are you sure you want to rest HERE?") and gave several hints at the consequences but they insisted. The result was a near TPK, the only reason it wasn't a TPK was because I went easy to give them a chance to get the hell outta dodge and recuperate properly.
In an organized lair...c'mon, who are we kidding? Its experiences like that (for better or worse) that will teach the players NOT to metagame.
Inriguing questions.
In reality, it is probably a bad idea. I think the idea that advaneturers who have been causing a racket can all of a sudden stop for 8 hours with no one creeping up on them is illogical.
In practice, sometimes it has to be done. Otherwise dungeon encounters start to suck alot. Maybe, dungeon encounters are not the way to go in general because of this.
This has always been an issue of heated debate amongst players and DMs and it really does boil down one thing: Meta-gaming.
Who's going to win here, the DM or the players?
My advice, don't open this to debate and reasoning. Give them a choice, warn them and then let them face the consequences.
If you as the DM feel that its not safe for the party to camp in the dungeon or if it doesn't fit your idea of the adventure, simply tell them to make a survival or dungeoneering check. The result of the check tells the player its not safe to camp there.
If they press it and ask why, you can try to give them a simple answer. If they stall the game or argue with you or stand around in said dungeon and bicker amongst themselves about why its ok to camp there - attack them.
Just pull out an encounter they already faced and run it again. It comes up behind them from the area they though they cleared. Just jump in and say - roll initiative.
You should never shout at them that something is stupid. Tell them that its not a good idea. If they ask why or demand a meta-game answer, you can simply reiterate that its not safe and at the risk of tipping your hand you'll leave it at that.
Right off the bat I thought - Yes, its a highly defendable choke point, but do you really want to defend a choke point while low on spells or while you're half-asleep or fatigued? No one wants to fight a battle after being shocked awake in the night. If they're not any safer in an inn, its probably even worse in the dungeon.
In my book, if I don't want anyone to escape or restock, then I make sure we're prepared or willing to take the battle all the way to the end or we make arrangments to deal with camping.
It boils down to common-sense. If this were not a make-believe fantasy where the players should ultimately win and survive to be heroes, and the threat of death were very real - would people still camp in a dungeon?
Probably not.
The whole "this-many-encounters-uses-80%" and ECL and CR have really hit dungeon crawls in the hamstrings. I don't remember this ever being an issue in earlier editions. This is all the more reason for players to pay closer attention to pacing and stamina in longer dungeon crawls - the adventures almost demand an in-dungeon rest based on mechanics. The true challenge players face is to hold back on their powers long enough to finish the job and avoid that.
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There's a Campaign Workbook article in Dungeon #124 titled "Resting on the Run," which provides optional rules and suggestions for when PCs decide to camp in a dungeon, including rules pertaining to factors that affect the quality of sleep (and, in turn, how many spells or hit points a character might regain).What would we do without you Heathensson? ;-)I'm tired. It's snowing. 2 hour drive home from work.
(lol)
Sorry mate, no disrespt. Im obviously not on the ball either - spelt your name wrong.
This has always been an issue of heated debate amongst players and DMs and it really does boil down one thing: Meta-gaming.
My sentiments exactly. Well put, Iron_Stormhammer, it is all about common sense. Another alternative is a potion of vitality, I don't think its been added to 3.5 yet, probably because it can create more problems if abused. Its a potion that gives you a full night's rest (recuperating lost spells, h.p., etc.) with one gulp. It is handy to eliminate the "do we rest here?" issue but, like I said, can become a headache for the DM. I had a group stock up on cases of the stuff so they could walk through the dungeon at full power all the time. Anyways, in controlled doses it is useful.