I need a little help with a rules discussion revolving around entanglement from a web spell.
I have a cleric PC in my game caught inside a web spell and she failed her saving throw. Adjacent to her is an unconscious and dying party member who is not in the web (but is, of course, prone). She is holding a wand of CLW. She would like to know if she can touch the dying PC.
From the SRD:
from Web
...Anyone in the effect’s area when the spell is cast must make a Reflex save. If this save succeeds, the creature is entangled, but not prevented from moving, though moving is more difficult than normal for being entangled (see below). If the save fails, the creature is entangled and can’t move from its space, but can break loose by spending 1 round and making a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 25 Escape Artist check. Once loose (either by making the initial Reflex save or a later Strength check or Escape Artist check), a creature remains entangled, but may move through the web very slowly. Each round devoted to moving allows the creature to make a new Strength check or Escape Artist check. The creature moves 5 feet for each full 5 points by which the check result exceeds 10. ...
Entangled
The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell.
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It seems to me that this means that you're just entangled but you can still swing a sword and use a wand and touch someone at your feet. You just can't walk.
This seems silly. I hate to mix movies in too much, but I imagine failing your saving through playing out like Frodo in the Shelob's lair. He definitely couldn't have touched his toes. He spent a full round action trying to get free and then suffered a movement penalty from difficut terrain thereafter. Perfect!
Any thoughts or clarifications on how it does (and should) work in D&D?
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The webbed cleric can cast the spell, but needs to make the concentration check as noted in the entangle entry.
Since he failed his save, he is entangled AND subject to the other effects listed in the spell (whereas if he SUCCEEDED, he would simply be entangled).
Neither the entangled entry nor the web spell description states the character is unable to cast spells or cannot touch an adjacent willing recipient.
Imagine that the web material is elastic enough to permit upper body movement, but with difficulty, and makes moving from the location impossible.
I personally would ignore the movie thing altogether. If you must use it then realize that the effect you are seeing in the movie could be a different ability all together.
From the reading of the rules I would say that the Cleric COULD cast a healing spell on the prone comrade in the square adjacent to him. He would have to make a concentration check of DC 15 + the level of spell he is casting to do so.
In general I make a call based solely on the rules. Once I have done that I then try to describe the action in a manner that is interesting but consistent with the rules outcome. So something like...
"The sticky strands cling to you and hamper your every movement. You realize that it would take much more effort to tear yourself completely free, but that is not your goal. With the strength of your faith and your friend lying before you in need you are able to free yourself just enough to reach him. The web seems to try to stop even your spellcasting itself but you are able to focus and bring forth the healing power of Lathander."
Or something like that... point is make the call on the rules then work the description to match. This keeps things fair and balanced which is what the rules are for and still interesting from the description.
Sean Mahoney
Yes, this is what I was thinking of. Can cast the spell. Can't move. Doesn't need a concentration check because it's a wand.
I'm just disappointed in the spell I guess. I mean it's this huge mass of webs in a 20 foot radius going from floor to ceiling all over everywhere and all it affects are your legs??
The icing on the cake is that the web was cast by another PC and it's dismissable so I probably don't need to worry about it too much. But darn Peter Jackson implanted his visions in my psyche and it's hard to shake them off sometimes, so I thought I'd ask the assembled sages here.
Thanks for the responses.
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I'm just disappointed in the spell I guess. I mean it's this huge mass of webs in a 20 foot radius going from floor to ceiling all over everywhere and all it affects are your legs??
Well, no, if all it affected was your legs, it shouldn't have any effect on your spellcasting. I think the situation is that it covers your entire body but, being a web (and thus slightly stretchy), you have some range of movement (allowing you to cast and attack) but not enough to actually GO anywhere.
Yes, that's right. At first, I thought you would still need a Concentration check to use the wand, but I looked in the DMG, and they are spell trigger, not spell completion, so your cleric is good. If it was a scroll, he'd still need the check.
I agree that this is one of those situations that seems hard to explain. I would personally invision numerous strands stuck all over the body, from every which way. Each is slightly elastic, and allows any individual portion of the body to move, though with some impediment. However, the cumulative effect of all the strands effectively anchors the character in place. Everytime he tries to walk away, the strands stretch just a bit, then pull him back. However, he can use the elastic nature to just barely reach his friend with the tip of his wand if he strains hard enough. Hey, he may even be able to twist into a position that he'd normally fall in, but the strands also support him just enough.
Entanglement spells are extremely potent (I halfway think they are too low level, but simply kept there because of tradition; but that's another thread!).
EDIT- Since we're on the topic, let's take a look at the entangle spell. Part of its description reads, similar to web, "The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check."
Does that mean that it takes a full-round action to make the check, or can it make the check and move at half speed all in the same round?
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Entanglement spells are extremely potent (I halfway think they are too low level, but simply kept there because of tradition; but that's another thread!).
I think entanglement spells are fair, personally. Because they are relatively low level, they are fairly easy to save against and, with Heighten Spell, they retain their usefulness even in the higher levels. Very versatile spells, really. Certainly worth adding to your repertoire.
The actual entangle spell, however, might be ever-so-slightly overpowered since it is a first level spell with a 40 ft. radius. But, eh, c'est la vie.
Yes, that's right. At first, I thought you would still need a Concentration check to use the wand, but I looked in the DMG, and they are spell trigger, not spell completion, so your cleric is good. If it was a scroll, he'd still need the check.
I agree that this is one of those situations that seems hard to explain. I would personally invision numerous strands stuck all over the body, from every which way. Each is slightly elastic, and allows any individual portion of the body to move, though with some impediment. However, the cumulative effect of all the strands effectively anchors the character in place. Everytime he tries to walk away, the strands stretch just a bit, then pull him back. However, he can use the elastic nature to just barely reach his friend with the tip of his wand if he strains hard enough. Hey, he may even be able to twist into a position that he'd normally fall in, but the strands also support him just enough.
Entanglement spells are extremely potent (I halfway think they are too low level, but simply kept there because of tradition; but that's another thread!).
Yeah, ok I see what you're trying to describe. And I definitely agree that engtanglement spell are pretty powerful and a web spell that held someone helpless on a failed save (except for the full round strength check to break free) would certainly be better as a higher level spell.
And Fatespinner, you're right of course that the concentration check on spellcasting is an effect on more than just legs.
Perhaps there should be different spells, or increasing effects with a higher caster level. The lower level one would work as described except that you would only have cover with 20 feet or web between you, not total cover. Higher level would give you the cover as described and render someone helpless on a failed save.
Or something.
Or maybe I should just get over it. ;)
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Does that mean that it takes a full-round action to make the check, or can it make the check and move at half speed all in the same round?
My ruling on this one:
Making the check and moving is the full-round action, so yes, you could do it all in the same round. My evidence to support this standpoint is that skill checks and ability checks are typically a standard action. Therefore, the check would be the standard action and the movement would be the move action for the same round.
I thought so. I remember a druid once trapping a cryohydra and the party simply destroying it because I thought that each individual component of that required a full-round, which seemed a bit too good.
I only halfway think that entanglement spells are too powerful. There are many mitigating factors. Entangle, for example, is only useable in vegetated areas (not usually in dungeons), and it's hard to miss your allies due to the huge radius, making the spell a bit of a liability. I don't count the save as too much of a balance factor, since that's a highly variable, relative point.
Web, on the otherhand, is useless in many outdoor areas, since it needs diametrically opposed surfaces to function. While a forest or any area under a tree's canopy could theoretically work, dungeons and other indoor areas remain a safer bet.
There is also its vulnerability to fire, and the ever present liability that entanglment spells cause. When used recklessly, they can hamper the party as much or more than their foes.
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...and the ever present liability that entanglment spells cause. When used recklessly, they can hamper the party as much or more than their foes.
My friends and I once played an all-elven game where the party consisted of a wizard, druid, 2 rangers, and a fighter. All of us had bows (and knew how to use them). If we were outdoors, entangle ruled the day as we rained arrow-death on every enemy in the radius. Indoors, web provided the same effect. It was so nasty.