I´m thinking about integrating the optional rule for Vitality and Wound points from UA into my game. Has anybody here used it already and cares to share his opinion ?
I hope it adds an element of uncertainty and thus, excitement to combat, while at the same time making the game a little bit more “realistic” – for me, it is a bit more plausible for a creature to have a pure bodily life force (aka Wound Points) and a measure of his experience in combat (AKA Vitality Points) than only Hit Points measuring both at once. Not that D&D combat (or the D&D game in general) is realistic or even tries to be – but I think this rule could make the suspend of disbelief a little bit easier.
I wonder if this system holds when you get to the extremes: A Great Wyrm Red Dragon gets his Con of 31 times 8 (for being colossal) = 248 WP, in addition to his 660 VP. I´m not sure if this is adequately reflected by raising his CR by 1. But then, he is CR 26 to start with – it will probably make no difference if the party is up to the challenge at all.
While reading the optional rules, I saw some points I will change:
Healing: You heal for a night of rest a number of wound points equal to your constitution modifier (but at least one), not your level – that makes more sense to me, especially as I view the OR as a bit more realistic as the original. Vitality point recovery remains as written.
Magical Healing:
The healing effects will heal the full amount, as per spell description, of Vitality points, and Wound Points as follows: One point per die of healing, and one more point per three points of bonus (from caster level, usually). So, a cure moderate wounds would heal 2d8 + caster level Vitality Points and 2+(caster level/3 (rounded down)) Wound points. The caster level bonus will continue to count towards WP healing until the next number fully divisible by three is reached – so, a 6th level Cleric using cure light wounds would be able to cure 3 WP.
That serves to make WP very important, and wounds all that more dangerous. This system favors weak enemies dealing not a lot of damage, as even they can cause grievous injuries with one lucky hit.
Toughness feat: This will add 3 VP and one WP.
Any other ideas on this?
Stefan
I've used VP/WP in Star Wars, and hated the system. Indeed, between that and the starship combat systems, I now will not run Star Wars d20 as written - it needs heavily house ruled before I will touch it. (And, since I'm not keen on heavily house ruling systems, that means I don't run SWd20, which is a real shame.)
The problem with the system is that it does exactly what you said it does: it makes combat, and especially critical hits, much more random, and much more dangerous. Which runs counter to what I feel Star Wars should feel like, and runs very much counter to what I want a game to feel like.
However, since that seems to be what you're going for, I suppose that's no bad thing.
Things you have to look out for:
1) Anything that increases the likelihood of a critical hit. In particular, the Improved Critical feat must be changed to increase the threat range by 1, rather than doubling it.
2) Anything that increases the critical multiplier. These need changed over to increase the threat range instead.
3) Anything that adds damage, and particularly lots of damage. Rogues' Sneak Attack is likely to be a real problem, since a critical hit on a sneak attack will then become almost akin to an insta-kill. But you may also find that Power Attack is a bit too good. (That said, the latter problem is maybe only an issue if you also use Armour-as-DR, in which case it's a killer.)
4) You might want to allow a character to spend an Action Point, or perhaps 2, to reduce a critical hit to a normal hit. This becomes especially important when your PCs face the BBEG and the Jedi Guardian rolls a critical hit with his lightsaber on his first attack, turning your carefully designed climax into a joke. Which, yes, actually happened to me.)
(My gut feeling is that VP/WP will work a lot better at low-mid levels than at high levels. But I have no experimental data to back that up.)
The only other thing I can suggest is to take a look at Spycraft 2.0, which also uses the system. Apparently, it has taken the system and refined it a great deal, fixing most if not all of the things I don't like about it. But I can only report that second-hand - I haven't checked out that game myself.
the d&d system was designed so cure and inflict spells are two sides of the same coin - in other words, inflicts should act the same way wounding a target as cures do healing one. this can greatly increase the power of opposing clerics, who should be able to deal wp damage with just a touch. something to keep in mind...
tog
Things you have to look out for:1) Anything that increases the likelihood of a critical hit. In particular, the Improved Critical feat must be changed to increase the threat range by 1, rather than doubling it.
2) Anything that increases the critical multiplier. These need changed over to increase the threat range instead.
Yes, these points are adressed in the UA as well. They indeed rule that crits get no multiplier, and that instead the crit threat range is increased.
3) Anything that adds damage, and particularly lots of damage. Rogues' Sneak Attack is likely to be a real problem, since a critical hit on a sneak attack will then become almost akin to an insta-kill. But you may also find that Power Attack is a bit too good. (That said, the latter problem is maybe only an issue if you also use Armour-as-DR, in which case it's a killer.)
Sneak Attack crits will deal 1 extra point of damage per die they would deal normally. This will still be threatening without overpowering the rogue.
Perhaps I will divide the Power Attack Bonus by 3 or even 5 for crits, much like in healing.
4) You might want to allow a character to spend an Action Point, or perhaps 2, to reduce a critical hit to a normal hit. This becomes especially important when your PCs face the BBEG and the Jedi Guardian rolls a critical hit with his lightsaber on his first attack, turning your carefully designed climax into a joke. Which, yes, actually happened to me.)
Hmm... something like action points, hero points, karma points, force points or whatever seems to be called for, anyway. I will think on this.
Having a climax ruined like this is awful. I feel with you.
The only other thing I can suggest is to take a look at Spycraft 2.0, which also uses the system.
I will see if I can get a peek at it somewhere. Thanks for your ideas and hints.
Stefan
the d&d system was designed so cure and inflict spells are two sides of the same coin - in other words, inflicts should act the same way wounding a target as cures do healing one. this can greatly increase the power of opposing clerics, who should be able to deal wp damage with just a touch. something to keep in mind...
tog
Yeah, that can be nasty. But as I´m currently DMing an evil group, it is ok, I think.
Stefan
I posted about this on my blog when we considered it for our game; here's what my friend Zach had to say.
Hey guys just wanted to throw in my two cents on the hit points question. Up in San Francisco we have gave Vitality/Wounds a try, and all thought it was a phenomenal system. It makes action more cinematic, and it's far more realistic. Vitality is HPs, and reflects stamina, dodging, blows deflecting off armor and just about any cinematic device you want to throw in, and gets better at each level just as HP's always have, but your CON or Wounds remains the same or rises slowly through Ability boosts. This is far more realistic I mean how exactly is your ability to take damage raising at each level? Despite the fact that Criticals go straight to Wounds the system actually increases survivability of characters since without a Critical all damage goes to Vitality first and then Wounds after Vitality is exhausted. Anyway it is your game and I hate to intrude, but I have found it to be a great system.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I tried it and didn't enjoy it. Particularly at low levels, it gives mooks like kobolds and goblins a lot of staying power. Plus, it was a headache having to make the save the first time WP damage was dealt to see if the creature was fatigued (and then remembering the fatigue during the course of the battle). It slowed the game a lot and didn't add a lot in exchange for the reduction in speed.
Keep in mind that the rules as written suffer from a certain level of whack-a-mole syndrome. IIRC, when you are taken below 0 WP, you don't die, you make a fort save instead. If you succeed, you go back to 1 WP. This means that foes (and PC's) with good Fort saves are going to keep popping up ("I'm not dead yet!").
On the other hand, it does make toughness relevant...
For a more gritty, MUCH less player-friendly variant, I ran a campaign in which characters at 1/2 hp were automatically fatigued, and characters at less than Con (or 1/4 hp, if lower) were exhausted. These rules applied to monsters, too, of course, with the exception of constructs and undead (which made that latter MUCH scarier). Also, anyone reduced to the next stage (fatigued, etc.) had to save vs. Fort or be stunned 1 round.
Chivalrous combat is out the window in this variant. The trick is to stun a guy, then whale on him while he's weakened and can't properly defend himself. Everyone quickly abandoned Fighter in favor of Rogue. I added hero/action points to reduce player fatalities, but they still had to think very carefully before attacking. And it was a LOT of fun, although no good at all for dungoen crawls (I ended up making a lot of custom adventures).
I tried it and didn't enjoy it. Particularly at low levels, it gives mooks like kobolds and goblins a lot of staying power. Plus, it was a headache having to make the save the first time WP damage was dealt to see if the creature was fatigued (and then remembering the fatigue during the course of the battle). It slowed the game a lot and didn't add a lot in exchange for the reduction in speed.
It will surely add some bookkeeping. I will have to see if it is worth the trouble.
Keep in mind that the rules as written suffer from a certain level of whack-a-mole syndrome. IIRC, when you are taken below 0 WP, you don't die, you make a fort save instead. If you succeed, you go back to 1 WP. This means that foes (and PC's) with good Fort saves are going to keep popping up ("I'm not dead yet!").On the other hand, it does make toughness relevant...
Well, this "whack-a-mole" effect could happen (what is this whack thing referring to, anyway?). You disabled at 0 WP, take a standard action, fall unconscious and are dying, make the DC 20 Fort save, and are back to consciousness and being disabled. With a good Fort save, you could do this risky gamble for a while - but miss one save, and thats it.
So, I will house-rule this differently: If you are at 0 WP, all you can do is crawl away from combat and heal yourself - if you are conscious at all. One more hit, and you are dead.
Thanks for the input.
Stefan
For a more gritty, MUCH less player-friendly variant, I ran a campaign in which characters at 1/2 hp were automatically fatigued, and characters at less than Con (or 1/4 hp, if lower) were exhausted. These rules applied to monsters, too, of course, with the exception of constructs and undead (which made that latter MUCH scarier). Also, anyone reduced to the next stage (fatigued, etc.) had to save vs. Fort or be stunned 1 round.
The problem with using fractions is that low-hp classes are at a severe disadvantage - have one area-effect spell affect the party, and all the d4 and d6 types are at least fatigued, if not exhausted using that system. From there, it is only a short way until they are out of combat entirely.
And it requires even more bookkeeping, I think.But this leads me to redefine the effects of being wounded: Instead of subtracting 2 from STR and DEX, I will make it a -1 on all rolls across the board - lessens bookkeeping and recalculating bonuses etc. It is a bit harder than the original rule, but so what? I´m generous with my players otherwise.
Thanks for the idea.
Stefan
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Well, this "whack-a-mole" effect could happen (what is this whack thing referring to, anyway?). You disabled at 0 WP, take a standard action, fall unconscious and are dying, make the DC 20 Fort save, and are back to consciousness and being disabled. With a good Fort save, you could do this risky gamble for a while - but miss one save, and thats it.
Sorry, that's probably a bit too Americ-centric of a reference. Whack-a-mole is a kids type arcade game where these little plastic moles pop out of holes and you whack them with a big rubber mallet. You can't stop the moles from coming up, just deal with them short term until they pop up again.
The DC 20 Fort save is high for low level character, but once you get to mid/high levels, it's pretty easy for those with good Fort saves.
So, I will house-rule this differently: If you are at 0 WP, all you can do is crawl away from combat and heal yourself - if you are conscious at all. One more hit, and you are dead.
I would probably house rule that the person is unconcious but stable. The usual whack-a-mole tactic is to make the save, wake up, drink a healing potion, return to combat.
I'd recommend running a practice combat with your group once to make sure you understand the rules. It seems simple, but a lot of questions come up under this system.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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But this leads me to redefine the effects of being wounded: Instead of subtracting 2 from STR and DEX, I will make it a -1 on all rolls across the board - lessens bookkeeping and recalculating bonuses etc. It is a bit harder than the original rule, but so what? I´m generous with my players otherwise.
I think that will make your life much easier.
Good luck with the system. Please update us with the final version you adopt and how it runs.
I´m thinking about integrating the optional rule for Vitality and Wound points from UA into my game. Has anybody here used it already and cares to share his opinion?
I used it in the Star Wars RPG, and I love it. Yes, a Ftr1 can take down a red dragon in a single blow (not really), but that would have to be a very lucky hit.
Unfortunately, it looks like a lot of work to make all the right changes in all the right places.
My two cents,
Jack
Sorry, that's probably a bit too Americ-centric of a reference. Whack-a-mole is a kids type arcade game where these little plastic moles pop out of holes and you whack them with a big rubber mallet. You can't stop the moles from coming up, just deal with them short term until they pop up again.
I see :-)
I would probably house rule that the person is unconcious but stable. The usual whack-a-mole tactic is to make the save, wake up, drink a healing potion, return to combat.I'd recommend running a practice combat with your group once to make sure you understand the rules. It seems simple, but a lot of questions come up under this system.
Both good ideas I will make use of, thanks again.
Stefan
I think that will make your life much easier.
But this leads me to redefine the effects of being wounded: Instead of subtracting 2 from STR and DEX, I will make it a -1 on all rolls across the board - lessens bookkeeping and recalculating bonuses etc. It is a bit harder than the original rule, but so what? I´m generous with my players otherwise.
In practice, the -1/-3 is exactly what we did. :) And it did teach low-hp PCs to stay out of combat at all costs unless they had a huge tactical advantage. Combat became increasingly rare, until the PCs were using it as a course of last resort, and every fight was soon memorable. Not the D&D we all grew up with, but an interesting variant when you're about hacked out.
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I've had to do a lot of finessing myself with this system, but have found great success in my recent Red Hand of Doom campaign.
These were some modest changes I made to the Vit/Wd system:
1. PCs & NPCs gain 1 additional Wound point per 4 class levels.~ A minor balance to the increasing damage at higher levels, especially as creatures gain higher Con scores but the PCs and classed NPCs retain rather low Wound pools.
2. A creature is only fatigued when it has taken 1/10th or more of its total Wd pool~ Helps offset a tiny Wd (1 pt) fatiguing a creature with a Wound pool of 20 or higher (Important when you have 100 pt Wd pools with Gargantuan & Clossal creatures)
3. Kept the healing rule that caster level heals Wound while the xd8 heals Vitality, but allowed excess healing in either Vitality or Wound to roll over into the other pool.
4. Revamped the Fort save system to the following:
-Keep track of all Wound damage, including negatives, and use the following system (once at 0 Wd or beyond).
-Instead of the UA's listed saves, isntead use the character's Total Negative Wound as the base DC (i.e. if they roll below it, they die).
If the player exceeds the base DC by less than 10, they are unconscious and bleeding to death (DC increases by +1 each round until stabilized).
If the player exceeds the base DC by 10 to 19, then they are stabilized and unconscious.
If the player exceeds the base DC by 20, they are still conscious and disabled.
-The player rolls at the beginning of each of their turns, and each time they take damage.
~I find this eliminates the situation Sebastian outlined, although NPCs and PCs experience a lot more survival via stabilization. Eventually, the damage is going to catch up to a person, and if they've pushed themselves too hard, they might end up dying with a poor roll or too much damage.
I've posted my house rules a while back on these boards, and while I've made a few more changes, I did mention some things involving Regeneration & Damage Reduction.
My players love the system, though I liked the OP's suggestion about using your Con modifier to heal Wound, rather than your level- that certainly keeps the gritty feel to the Wound pool by making the frail 20th level mage take as long to heal from vicious wounds as his 1st level counterpart.
Messageboards ate my post... so I have to try again.
So, I will give an overview of my version of Vitality Points and Wound Points – as far as I am now with it. I will implement it next Monday and see how it works.
Basics:
WP equal Constitution Score, VP equal “classic” Hit Points.
Normal hits are deducted from VP, overflow is deducted from WP.
Critical Hits are deducted from WP directly, DR is ignored.
Critical hits don´t cause multiples of damage anymore, multiples beyond x2 increase the Threat Range on a one-on-one basis (old 20/x4 = new 18-20).
Additional Damage Dice, e.g., from a Rogues Sneak Attack, cause in case of a crit one point damage per die. Additional Damage, e.g. from Power Attack, are divided by three in case of a crit.
If a character accumulates WP damage in excess of his con bonus, he is at –1 on all rolls. If he accumulates Damage in excess of half his WP, he is at –2 on all rolls.
If he takes Damage in excess of half his WP from one attack, he has to make a Fort Save against 10+damage taken or fall unconscious instantly. He can make another Fort save each round to regain consciousness, with the DC raising +1 each round.
If a character falls to zero WP, he falls unconscious immediately and is considered dying.
He has to make a DC 15 Fort save, +1 for each point of damage in excess of his WP (if he takes 10 points WP damage when he has only 5 left, the DC would be 20).
If he fails the save, he dies a number of rounds later equal to his CON bonus, but at least one, unless he gains magical healing.
If he makes it by less than 5, he is still dying and has to make another save next round, with the DC raised +1.
If he makes it by more than 5, he stabilizes and is not considered dying anymore.
If he rolls a natural 20, he regains consciousness, and can do the following: crawling away from the situation, drink a healing potion (the latter takes two rounds at least).
Healing: A skilled healer can save a dying character. He has to make a healing check, DC 15 + excess damage + number of rounds lapsed. This takes one round and provokes attacks of opportunity. It does not matter if the dying character made or failed his save – he is dying anyway.
Magical Healing: Healing spells heals VP as given for HP in the spell description. They heal WP at a rate of one per die and one per three caster levels, with the caster level being counted up to the next level divisible by three over the maximum VP healing level (so, a Cure Light Wounds cures a maximum of 3 WP at caster level 6 – one for the 1d8 and two for the caster level. Excess WP healing heals VP, but not the other way round.
Cure Minor Wounds cures no WP damage, but stabilizes a dying character. Other Cure spells heal one WP less if used on a dying character (this point is "used up" to stabilize the dying character)
Recovery:
If a stabilized character is not tended by a healer, his condition can worsen again. He has to make a Fort Save every hour against DC 10, +1 for every hour that passed. If he fails that save, he is dying again. If he makes the save by less than 5, his condition is unchanged, and he has to make further saves. If he makes the save by more than 5, he is stabilized again, but may still worsen again. If stabilized, the save DC drops to 10 again.
He then has a 10% chance, modified by the constitution bonus, to start recovering. If he starts recovering (as per normal rules), he is no longer in danger of dying.
Healing and recovery: A dying character successfully treated by a healer is no longer in danger of dying. He has a 10% chance, modified by the constitution bonus, per hour to regain consciousness. He recovers WP normally.
Natural healing: The character starts recovering VP only if he has at least one WP.
Otherwise, VP heal at a rate of one per hour per level.
WP heal at a rate of one per point of constitution bonus (minimum one) for eight hours of sleep (once per 24 hours).
For a full day of resting in bed, these rates double.
If a healer tends the injured character, these rates double.
So, at best, a character regains four VP per level per hour and four WP per point of CON bonus per day.
(Side rule for healers: Each patient cared for beyond one increases the Heal DC by one, by two if a patient is dying – dividing your attention can have grave consequences – literally… If several healers work together, the number of patients is divided evenly for healing checks, but the best skill is used for all checks)
Toughness: The character gains 1 WP and three VP each time.
Every character gains 1 WP for every four levels.
And I will use Action Points as per UA, with the added uses that 1 AP can be used to turn a critical hit into a normal hit
, and 1 AP to stabilize yourself if at 0 WP. (not in the same round, of course)
Comments ?
Stefan
Update:
Yesterday was the first session in which I wanted to use the rules outlined above. My players were not to keen on that, claiming that these rules take away much of the "superhero" feeling they say is one of the main differences of D&D compared to other fantasy RPG systems. We decided to give it a try anyway, for at least two sessions.
They had only one fight, against a Grell, which would have been tough if the Duergar was not immune to paralysation. But the immunity coupled with his AC of 24 made him the tank in this fight, while the other two were paralysed with the first hit. Only one PC took Vitality point damage, four points. As he has only 13 Con to start with, this was quite dangerous for him.
But the Grell concentrated its attacks an the last enemy standing, until it took Vitality Point damage, at which moment it fled, taking another hit in the process.
This one fight was not enough to really judge if the rules are usable, but I think that I can use these rules to maintain a threat even when using low-power creatures (a Grell is CR 3, but it was still a viable threat). For me, it makes the suspense of disbelieve easier if not every enemy has to be at the same power level as the PCs. We will see what comes of this.
If you are interested in what is happening in my campaign, you will find that here. It is not much by now, as we are only in our third session.
Stefan