Sorry to come back so soon seeking more input, but I really enjoy the intelligent repartee this site offers, and I have another, more general topic with which I could use some input, namely: Treasure distribution.
All too often, I find that treasure in my campaign gets whacked up according to who is the most vocal, manipulative or insistent, rather than who is most deserving. Certainly, I find that treasure doesn't always end up where I imagine it when I design the adventure;
so, in two parts:
a) What's a DM to do to facilitate and see that there is some justice (I try not to be the sixth player during these times, but often find myself piping up "shouldn't the druid get the gauntlets of Ogre Power?") or should I just let the chips fall as they may?
b) please share any anecdotes of treasure distribution, horror stories or great moments in teamwork so I can see exactly how disfunctional my group is on a relative scale *grin*
TIA,
-Z
I have found that the choices a party makes are decided by the most vocal, manipulative and insistent player. This goes further to the point where these individuals are directing the DM to do what they want while the more easy-going individuals are along for the ride.
I have seen NPCs used well, regarding these players, can be very effective. By pointing out the actions of said individuals, such action is brought to light.
Another tactic I use is have a rival NPC group show these behavior patterns. When the party finds the dead guy ladden with gear near the entrance of the dungeon and the dead bodies of the others littered about the complex, it might dawn on them that they need each other. If this fails fall back on the NPC yelling "That guy at the entrance must have killed the others or just hoarded all of the equipment."
a) (I try not to be the sixth player during these times, but often find myself piping up "shouldn't the druid get the gauntlets of Ogre Power?")
Why would the ogre need a Str booster? Wouldn't a Wis booster be more appropriate?
Anyway, I sympathize with you on this whole topic. I've found that every time I DM a new game I find myself getting impatient after 15 minutes of PC-PC rp revolving around loot and saying "Why don't you just split the coins evenly and everybody take the items that they use best?" Usually the players take my advice and stop bickering over treasure hauls from then on.
But I've only played with a couple exceptionally immature players, and never more than one per campaign which is perhaps your problem? If this is the case, you have two options:
1: Calmly explain to your players the mutual benefits (survival) of each player taking the items that he/she can use best.
2: Take a bathroom/snack/coffee break while your players bicker over the loot you just gave them. Some people learn best by doing, not listening to the experience and wisdom of others: maybe your players will just need to bicker for a few campaigns before they realize that they're putting too much time and energy into this part of the game.
As a final note, ask yourself if your opinions about treasure distribution are really necessary. Assuming the problem is not that of immature players, maybe your players just like to divvy things up differently. I asked at the post's start why you think a druid needs a Str booster, and I'm serious. I've found that many new players assume that a character should round out their stats, whereas the consensus among experienced gamers is that it's more important to focus on a character's stats that are most used.
Food for Thought,
TS
If the Druid where going to the "Shifter" kinda druid i would understand the need for strength but i have to agree with the "why do you need that " idea, i love to RP that stuff out... though at the same time i have never had my party argue over loot mid dungen.. most of the time i have them to freaked out that they are all gonna die so they run like mad trying to get out. but normaly i let them fight over it, i got lucky and have very fair and understanding players... well at least as far as loot goes... the Above statement was well said take a short break let them fight then ask whats going on after words, they might get the hint and be more team like later :)
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I don't make a strong effort to balance treasure between players as the DM. I think the best you can do is to make sure you break up the treasure into roughly equivalent chunks to encourage distribution. I have required my players to do character audits, where they tell me all the magic items that possess. I can use that information to specifically target treasure for an under-equiped PC.
The worst experience I had as a player was in a high level campaign where I was running a cleric and the group found one of those stat bumping books for Wisdom (and a +5 book at that). I had taken great pains to max out my Wisdom, and the +5 book would have pushed me into the mid-30's, and my save DC's into the high 20's. I figured it went without saying that my character could best use the item.
Then the party fighter suggested that maybe he should get the item because it would qualify him for a minor feat and increase his Will save by a marginal amount. I told him I would give him the book if he would give me his +5 weapon, and that ended that argument.
I don't make a strong effort to balance treasure between players as the DM. I think the best you can do is to make sure you break up the treasure into roughly equivalent chunks to encourage distribution. I have required my players to do character audits, where they tell me all the magic items that possess. I can use that information to specifically target treasure for an under-equiped PC.
This is pretty much what I do. Since I seize characters sheets at the end of a session (unless they've got paperwork they want to do in their off-time), I pretty much have a chance to review their character sheets for balance and the like. I'm not a big fan of dumping a chest in front of them and saying "Here ya go. Have at it." I like to work in rewards and the like in a more role-playing fashion.
Thanks again for the great advice and encouragement.
I like the "taking a break" during treasure distribution idea, and I agree. I tend to sit firmly in the "well-rounded" character camp, but I feel that puts me in a minority, and I don't DM (despite whatever control-freak issues I may be working out *wink*) to make the players play like me.
In this current campaign, the druid (a lizardman) is the party's secondary fighter, and with a walking around AC of something like 25, in many ways he is more of a "tank" than the spiked chain wielding, dextrous fighter, and I would like to see him doing more damage, even if a little. The irony of it, is that they walked right by another set of gauntlets two sessions ago.
It is true about the general level of maturity, and I am blessed that in a group of five (six including me) guys I have known since HS (we are all in our mid thirties) that I have at least two players that show a lot of maturity and dignity consistently at the table. Unfortunately they are the quiet, unassuming ones, and I don't want to see their good play & gamesmanship go unrewarded.
Edit: PS: I put the character's PC's into PCGen and update them every once in a while to track wealth, encumbrance and keep the honest players honest so to speak.
I prefer to take a slightly different approach. In my games, we decide issues that might become a problem before play begins. For example, if a die rolls off the table or lands cocked, we have a rule that it must be rerolled. Concerning treasure, I have the players (as opposed to the characters) decide beforehand what method they'll use to divide treasure. Nothing bothers me more than a big argument over spoils in the middle of a game. I realize there's not much roleplaying involved in this method, but it sure keeps things moving and nobody gets upset about anything. Additionally, I like to include magic items or other items specifically tailored to each character. If nobody else can use it, nobody else wants it.
|
An interesting situation occurred in my game last week. Our party found a cloak of charisma, and we were trying to decide whether the rogue should have it (to boost his charisma-based skills) or my cleric (who is ever boosting his turning modifier), since there were no charisma-based casters or the like. We found an elegant solution: the cleric wears the cloak in dungeons (where the rogues diplomacy and bluff is less likely to come into play) and the rogue wears it in town. Why not share?
I guess I'm lucky--I have an intelligent, mature group of guys (late twenties to late forties), and if there's ever an argument about treasure distribution, it is always between characters rather than players--and it makes for some really fun RP. I just get to sit back and enjoy the show.
--Fang
We figure out the total GP value of everything, then allow the PCs to buy loot from the group. It's cumbersome, but it keeps everyone relatively balanced. It allows people who want the best stuff for cheap to pick from the pile, while other people horde and convert leftover loot to GP so they can custom buy treasure. Everyone does well under this system.
An in-game solution may be to throw a curse on the treasure-hog's loot next time he starts acting up. That might teach him about greed a bit. You can even make it a dynamic curse, set off by his greed, that no one else, who took the item for more rational reasons, would suffer from.
If ever there is a way to resolve something in-game (which there almost always is), that's the way to go.
In my past group, the players pooled the total wealth of the treasure and broke it up evenly. If someone wanted that +1 sword, it's value was subtracted from the amount of coinage they would get once divied up (which was always done on an equal-shares basis). If the person ended up getting more gp worth than the others, he would then "owe" the party something, meaning he would forfit a certain amount of gold, until his debt was paid. That forfitted coinage was then split equally amongst the other party members.
well, here is a couple suggestions:
cursed items that also have benefits; a mixed blessing
Intelligent items that dont like some character races or classes, etc.
Theives steal stuff in cities; can start threads of recovery plots or perhaps rouge type pcs can seek to buy back items for a price, ect or the stuff can just be missing.
Mobs can tell some character with the best stuff is the highest threat; have them shout it out; get that guy with the stuff; this would make people spread treasure around just to survive.
encumberance; some item acts like a lead brick if the character owns any like item; hey; its magic.
hope this helps.
You could also tailor specific treasures to specific PCs. It's not something you should do all the time, but it's nice if every once in a while each PC finds something that was made just for them. In the gauntlets example, perhaps the gauntlets of ogre power are somehow heated from within by the nature of the enchantment. Not too comfortable for a warm blooded creature, but a cold blooded lizardfolk would find them a real pleasure to wear. Or maybe the decoration on the item in question just suits him more. Lame examples, but you get the idea.
Just make sure you balance it with generic treasure that anyone could use in between these tailored trophies and make sure each PC gets at least one. Especially if it's something they're going to keep around for a while.
I 'm just noting "plauge" and "rouge". I can hear Fake Healer grinding his molars now hehehe
An interesting situation occurred in my game last week. Our party found a cloak of charisma, and we were trying to decide whether the rogue should have it (to boost his charisma-based skills) or my cleric (who is ever boosting his turning modifier), since there were no charisma-based casters or the like. We found an elegant solution: the cleric wears the cloak in dungeons (where the rogues diplomacy and bluff is less likely to come into play) and the rogue wears it in town. Why not share?
Clever strategy, but depending on the item in question there might be one that requires an attunement period before a character can use it (not an issue in this particular example, of course, but there are other items where this would be a problem.)
a) What's a DM to do to facilitate and see that there is some justice (I try not to be the sixth player during these times, but often find myself piping up "shouldn't the druid get the gauntlets of Ogre Power?") or should I just let the chips fall as they may?
IMO, it is not the DM's job to "facilitate" treasure distribution. It should be left entirely to the PCs to decide how treasure will be divvied up.
b) please share any anecdotes of treasure distribution, horror stories or great moments in teamwork so I can see exactly how disfunctional my group is on a relative scale *grin*
The only way I know to divide treasure that is truly and consistently fair is to add up the total value of all the treasure, assign each PC their share, and let them buy the items they want from the party. If two PCs want the same item, they can flip a coin, roll dice, or outbid one another for it.
You could also tailor specific treasures to specific PCs. It's not something you should do all the time, but it's nice if every once in a while each PC finds something that was made just for them. In the gauntlets example, perhaps the gauntlets of ogre power are somehow heated from within by the nature of the enchantment. Not too comfortable for a warm blooded creature, but a cold blooded lizardfolk would find them a real pleasure to wear. Or maybe the decoration on the item in question just suits him more. Lame examples, but you get the idea.
Just make sure you balance it with generic treasure that anyone could use in between these tailored trophies and make sure each PC gets at least one. Especially if it's something they're going to keep around for a while.
To some extent, I do this already. Part of why it became an issue recently is because the fighter, who wanted the gauntlets as well as an amulet of natural armor (which he got both) had convinced the party to sell the item I had specifically tailored for him and then made a big speech to the effect of "I sacrificed that item, which would have been my share, so you all should give me those two items". (which together constitute 1/2 the hoard)
I suggested the method which has been enumerated above a few times, wherein the treasure is divvied by value, with players taking either cash or an equivalent share in items, but the suggestion has been largely overriden by the two more vocal players.
Since then, I have mostly let them do it whichever way they want (and face the consequences), but especially as they (and the items I create/distribute) grow in power, equality is more important to me.
Like I said, I want to avoid putting my beak in, but this one player continually manipulates the others.
During that last treasure negotiation, one of the players had to run home literally for a few minutes (gf emergency) and Fighter-guy tried to allocate the treasure while the guy was gone. I shut that down quickly.
I also tried pointing out as politely as I could that his character was not the party leader, nor had the charisma to effectively argue the way the player did, but since distribution has become largely meta anyway, I felt somewhat specious making that argument.
I think that many of the above suggestions will go a long way towards curbing/conditioning his behavior.
Thanks again!