Ok, with some nasty ruledigging one of my players came up with a way to make Time Stop last 24 hours.
Cleric of Olidammara 17th lvl, with trickery domain and the 9th lvl spell Time Stop.
Feats; Extend Spell, Persistent Spell(Complete Arcane), Divine Metamagic(Complete Divine)...
Persistent Spell allows the character to make a spell with the personal description last for 24 hours. But it increases the effective spell level with 6.
Divine Metamagic allows the character to spend turn/rebuke undead attempts to cast spells with metamagic feats but negate the increasing of spell level depending on how many turn/rebuke undead attempts spent.
So...What Would You Do? 24 hour Time Stop, man that's insane, Cleric of Olidammara you could rob the entire towns treasury etc...
Ok, sorry for the double posting...
I'd say if nothing else, this is where the Inevitables would come knocking on the door.
I'd say if nothing else, this is where the Inevitables would come knocking on the door.
Where can I find information on the Inevitables. Sounds like an organisation who hunts people that tinker too much with reality?
EDIT: ok, I found them in Monsters Manual... That's cool, they'll definatly have a say in this :D
Don't look in the Monster Manual. The most powerful one it's got is the CR 15 Marut, and none of them are keyed towards violations against time itself. No, what you want to look at is the Fiend Folio. It has the CR 17 Quarut, which specifically tracks down people that disrupt the time-space continuum too much. It says they mainly worry about too many wish, limited wish, miracle, temporal stasis, and, you got it, time stop spells. I think this deffinately falls under that category. Ah, finding in-game solutions to take care of strange power-gaming combinations and loopholes feels good!
Disclaimer- the above is not meant to reflect a negative opinion of power gaming in general, Aubrey. I know you're out there....
You really don’t need too much rules-digging to come up with such cheese. Once you learn about divine metamagic and the fact that it does not raise the spell’s level you tend to think of all the powerful spells you can have last all day long.
I think the solutions suggested by Bloodsbane (and reinforced by Saern) can address the problem, but does not really solve it.
First, any decent 17th level cleric probably travels with an equally powerful party, more than enough to handle any Quarut or Marut that you throw at them. Well, you could send a horde of dozens of Inevitables at them, but as a DM I never resort to pitting players against overwhelming odds, unless the story specifically demands it.
If any player character (with the right feats and domains) could cast 24-hour Time Stops, they would be doing so and as frequently as they could.
The solution, I think, would be to look at the feat’s description. It specifically states: “You can channel energy into some of your divine spells to make them more powerful”. (Complete Divine, page 80).
My answer to the player, then, would be that Time Stop simply is not a divine spell. We could debate whether domain spells, since they are granted by a power or deity, are divine or arcane in nature.
My simple question would be this: “Is the spell in any divine spellcaster’s (cleric, druid, favored soul, etc.) regular list?” No? Then it’s not a divine spell. In my opinion, it is a bonus arcane spell a divine caster with access to a specific domain, such as Trickery, can cast.
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You really don’t need too much rules-digging to come up with such cheese. Once you learn about divine metamagic and the fact that it does not raise the spell’s level you tend to think of all the powerful spells you can have last all day long.
I think the solutions suggested by Bloodsbane (and reinforced by Saern) can address the problem, but does not really solve it.
First, any decent 17th level cleric probably travels with an equally powerful party, more than enough to handle any Quarut or Marut that you throw at them. Well, you could send a horde of dozens of Inevitables at them, but as a DM I never resort to pitting players against overwhelming odds, unless the story specifically demands it.
If any player character (with the right feats and domains) could cast 24-hour Time Stops, they would be doing so and as frequently as they could.
The solution, I think, would be to look at the feat’s description. It specifically states: “You can channel energy into some of your divine spells to make them more powerful”. (Complete Divine, page 80).
My answer to the player, then, would be that Time Stop simply is not a divine spell. We could debate whether domain spells, since they are granted by a power or deity, are divine or arcane in nature.
My simple question would be this: “Is the spell in any divine spellcaster’s (cleric, druid, favored soul, etc.) regular list?” No? Then it’s not a divine spell. In my opinion, it is a bonus arcane spell a divine caster with access to a specific domain, such as Trickery, can cast.
And therein lies true wisdom.
Very intelligent thinking. I think this is how it should be handled.FH
Par for course...I try to post, and it gets lost in cyber-space.
Second Try:
I think the "Celerity" domain also gets Time stop. I have a player who runs a cleric that uses this spell in my OW campaign.
Forgive me for getting on my soap-box, but...
I don't really understand why someone would exploit the rules in this manner when its obviously not in the spirit/intentions of the game. I agree with some of the previous posters in the way to handle this, but situations like this could be avoided with a little common sense.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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My solution: tell them at the beginning of the next session that their characters are all dead, their home town is burned down, and their pets have all been dyed bright green. When they ask what happened/if they get a saving throw, point out the loophole to them and explain that an evil cleric just took advantage of it at their expense. When they start complaining, ask if anyone else wants to close the loophole.
Ok, seriously, here's my vague attempt at using the rules to shut this down. The argument goes like this: the duration of Time Stop is not 1d4+1 rounds, it is instantaneous. The duration even has a note saying "see text." In the text, it explains that the caster gets 1d4+1 extra rounds to act, in effect speeding up time. That's not the duration of the spell, that's the effect. The duration is measured against the actual flow of time and is instantaneous. The confusion is caused by the fact that the effect is formated like a duration (as reinforced by the spell stats at the beginning).
(note that this opens the spell up to both empowering and maximizing, but that strikes me as a reasonable compromise).
Keep in mind that if 1d4+1 is treated as a duration, and that is extended to 24 hours, those 24 hours worth of actions effectively occur instanteously. It's hard to imagine magic that powerful being weilded by mortals, and I would probably say that time cannot be bent that much. It's a DM fiat argument, but it makes sense.
I also don't like the arcane/divine spell argument due to arcane spell failure.
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I don't really understand why someone would exploit the rules in this manner when its obviously not in the spirit/intentions of the game. I agree with some of the previous posters in the way to handle this, but situations like this could be avoided with a little common sense.
The problem is that some players don't look at in that light. Be they called munchkins, power gamers, or rules lawyers, they look for ways to show off.
In my games I've had lots of creative players, and I usually try to reward creativity by allowing "reasonable bends" in the rules. But when they go so far beyond "bending" its more like "shattering", I usually let them get exactly what they deserve.
My worst case was a gnome rogue who tried to restrain a dragon with iron bands of billaro, after shrinking him, and using sovereign glue to attaching the bottle of endless water to his posterior. His idea was use a bunch of low level magical items, a scroll of time stop, and a ring of three wishes to give his personal enemy (the red dragon) the mother of all enemas. The lookon his face when I told him the dragon said "I WISH these indignities were visted upon you in my place!" was priceless. He just barely made his save, and didn't try to pull that stunt again!
In the original thread on this topic (you did notice that this is the double post thread didn't you) I posted how I would respond to a player pulling this trick. What I didn't indicate was that I'd only do this IF he/she started using this every single day. Do it as an emergency "save the party's @$$" on a very rare basis, then I can understand it and kudos for putting it together. Start abusing the system and the system start to abuse you back.
My original post got eaten, too. I agree that changing it to an arcane spell the cleric somehow casts without spell failure seems even more arbitrary to me than throwing the quarut at the cleric. That's what the quarut is for... using it isn't being malicious. Send one. If it falls, send another. If that falls, send two, then four, until the job is done. That's consistent with the way the inhabitents of Mechanus work! They're relentless. That's just internal consistency, not DM heavy handedness.
Now, I, too, thought of having the quarut step "into" the time stop to fight the cleric, but then I remembered, time stop actually accelerates you so the rest of the world looks frozen. Thus, sending the quarut in there is somewhat outside the normal scope of the rules itself, just like changing a cleric's time stop to an arcane spell, however, I think it fits given their descriptive nature.
The easiest solution, however, would be to change the feat description to state that a spell cannot effectively be raised above 9th level using the Divine Metamagic. However, I think the designers might have inteded the feat to allow for metamagiced 9th level spells, or they would have put in a clause to handle that obvious loophole.
Well, since the spell is personal and it makes yourself faster, in other words it has little to do with time. It falls under the school of transmutation(transmutation spells changes the properties of some creature, thing or condition.). But then again, time falls under the condition part of the school transmutation explanation.
I don't like busting balls on my players when they do come up with something interesting like this. And I had so much fun planning on what would happen that I will allow it. :P
The whole arcane/divine spell argument didn't even occur to me but Sebastian cleared that one out for me.
EDIT: Why some players do this? Because it's fun, it's something new, it totally brings a new level to the game, and from a DM's point of view I get to mess with him for being a smart! :D
I've Got Reach: Seriously, the spirit/intentions of the game? I thought that the spirit and intentions of this game was to have fun? If you as a DM don't like what your players are doing, you can stop it.
Secondly I have to add, thanks for all the tips on how to handle this situation, especially about the Inevitables.
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I have mixed feelings about the whole thing.
This combination seems rather limiting as a Player Character spell combination.
As a player character, part of a larger group, what are you going to do for 24 hours while the rest of the world is frozen solid? If the person doesn't sleep, then they should certainly be exhausted when the spell expires. The spell is not dismissable. It should be pretty much impossible to time any spells to go off after the duration expires without some really sophisticated time keeping devices (which should also be frozen anyway). Someone said that you could use this combination to rob banks. What bank (in D&D land) would not have some rather good antitheft spells in place which should not be able to affected in a time stop. Even if they could be affected, it shouldn't take long before some VERY powerful individuals start taking notice and either manipulate the person to start working for them, or to simply take them out. But, seriously, think about it -- 24 hours is a LONG time to wait for the rest of the world to start working again.
As far as some of the "solutions" presented, I like Sebastian's the best. I always looked at the spell as having an instantaneous duration that allows the caster to act for a very limited number of rounds. HOWEVER, that isn't how the spell appears to be written. In that case, I feel that the inevitables are the best route to go. When the characters start to gain access to 9th level spells, they should be just fine with events that happen outside of the (known) rules. These inevitables could have a special ability to allow them to operate inside of someone else's time stop. Once or twice where he has to take on one of these creatures by themselves because they are stuck in the time stop and they will be thinking twice about doing it too often.
But more than anything, I still don't know what a person would want to do for 24 hours while the rest of the world was frozen -- except steal money.
(Which feels to me a whole lot like the 80's Super Friends) --
Legion of Doom: We are going to lure the Super Friends way out into deep space and get them trapped into a black hole where the toyman has built a huge elaborate theme park -- all so that we can steal some money from some other countries.
If they had just saved their money from the expensive black hole theme park project, they would have more money than all the countries combined.
If they had just saved their money from the expensive black hole theme park project, they would have more money than all the countries combined.
No wonder the bad guys always lose; they need to hire a CFO :)
I was wrong about Time Stop being an arcane spell. I had not considered the arcane spell failure. Such are the results of hasty and careless thinking!
Sebastian does offer a good idea. I would probably handle things his way.
No one is questioning you and your player’s right to have fun, teasing1. If all of you think it will be fun for the PCs (as well as villains and NPC’s!) to have access to such potentially game-breaking abilities, then by all means allow it. In such a case, sending Inevitables to “correct” the situation would make perfect sense.
To answer Moff Rimmer’s question, what I would do for 24 hours while the rest of the world was solid?
First, you are not necessarily exhausted after 24 hours. No one said you have to be under constant strenuous activity for the duration of the spell. There is nothing that stops you from spending some or most of those hours resting or relaxing. Or from eating the food that is in your possession.
One of the most efficient abuses of 24-hour long Time Stops I can think of would be to effectively double the rate at which a character can create magic items. The spell description states, “You can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession”. You would still have to pay the gold and the XP, but together with artisan feats presented in books like the Eberron Campaign Setting you could become a veritable Magic Item factory.
You could also age at double the rate. I know more than one spellcaster who would love to be of venerable age ASAP.
On a final note, I share Forgottenprince’s stance on the subject. If the trick is pulled off one or twice in an emergency, to save the party’s butt, then I would allow it and reward the player for his or her resourcefulness. Any player that just wants to exploit the rules (even if it’s at the rest of the party’s detriment) should be reasoned with first, or punished if he won’t care to listen to you.
I've Got Reach: Seriously, the spirit/intentions of the game? I thought that the spirit and intentions of this game was to have fun? If you as a DM don't like what your players are doing, you can stop it.
And if your group can do it and have fun, gods bless you. However, there ARE intents and purposes that rules are designed for (the spirit). Trying to find a loophole in the way the rule was written often creates situations in a game where one person is having fun at another's expense. It can also throw any semblance of balance out of your game, and lends itself to the mentality that it's players vs. DM, which of course is not the case. The players need to realize they should not be, and even cannot be, all powerful within the game, or there's no point in playing. The challenge is part of the essence of the game.
Now, for some people, part of this challenge is gimmicking around with rules. And if they can do it and not cause problems, again, gods bless them. That doesn't change the fact that there is a certain spirit to any given rule.
Your Mileage May Vary (I'm guessing that's what YMMV has always meant).
Also, I agree with those that feel coming up with this combo and using it in "Oh Shit!" situations is fine, and the player should be rewarded for coming up with this tactic. But if they start abusing the system, the system is free to abuse back.
Although I'm not sure exactly how gaining 24 hour time stop is going to save the party even in an "Oh Shit!" moment. I guess if the red dragon is about to breath on you again and it's certain that it will be a TPK, you can then speed up so fast that you carry your party out of the lair and back to the inn? Is that legal under the spell description?
What I just wrote made me think of a joke...
A cleric is attacked by a fighter, who is about to kick his butt.
He casts Time Stop for 24 hours, takes a book out of his backpack, and starts reading and practicing its contents.
When the 24 hours are up, time starts flowing normally again. The fighter is still charging towards the cleric, who, without losing his calm, says:
"I know KUNG FU"...
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To answer Moff Rimmer’s question, what I would do for 24 hours while the rest of the world was solid?
First, you are not necessarily exhausted after 24 hours. No one said you have to be under constant strenuous activity for the duration of the spell. There is nothing that stops you from spending some or most of those hours resting or relaxing. Or from eating the food that is in your possession.
I wasn't saying that you couldn't do those things, but it seems to me that it would be incredibly boring -- without any background noise either.
One of the most efficient abuses of 24-hour long Time Stops I can think of would be to effectively double the rate at which a character can create magic items. The spell description states, “You can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession”. You would still have to pay the gold and the XP, but together with artisan feats presented in books like the Eberron Campaign Setting you could become a veritable Magic Item factory.
That is a great use of the ability. And for what it's worth, I don't see this as being much different that making items in the Astral plane or some other virtually timeless environment.
You could also age at double the rate. I know more than one spellcaster who would love to be of venerable age ASAP.
Twice? Try several hundred times faster! You could be a year or two older, physically, when you come out of this spell! That's one way to limit it- too many times and the character jsut dies. :) The cleric vanishes as the party is used to him doing, expecting him to appear suddenly somwhere else when the Time Stop wore off, only to find him dead of a heart attack about 5 feet away. THAT would be funny!
i think the way to view this, if youre interested in stopping this kind of rules "creativity," is to reread the duration text for time stop. it says "1d4+1 rounds (apparent time)." so, you have 2 options:
option 1) as sebastian suggested, its an instantaneous spell. this is suggested by the fact that you get the extra time for preparation, running away, etc., but when the spell ends, everything picks right up where it left off. this option just plain stops the use of the persistent spell feat.
option 2) go right ahead, take your 24 hours. since real time isnt moving, you wont be able to pray for spells (since RAW states you pray at a certain time of day that wont come during the time stop), and you cant manipulate anything held/worn/etc. this aspect makes it virtually worthless in combat. im not saying there arent other things you can do to make it worthwhile to cast a persistent time stop in combat, but the best types of things (shanking an enemy spellcaster, stealing the bbeg sword, and such) are gone.
either way you go, its not much use for standard uses of time stop. now, robbing treasuries, thats a different story... and sleeping without being attacked... hey, actually, thats a pretty sweet way to go. you could heal your wounds (both spell and skill healing, if needed), sleep for however long, and be fresh for prayer as soon as you pop back into the timestream. now thats a use i could get behind.
the preceding has been my opinions, and does not necessarily reflect the opinion of this website.
tog
edit: wish i had seen this was a double thread, as a couple of my points are on the other one...
I've used Time Stop to speed up item creation before. Worked out great.
If I could stop time for 24 hours (repeatedly) I cannot begin to tell you the well meant havoc I would wreak. It would be a different world. No unplanned mushroom clouds or people with mysteriously sore privates or anything... just a hundred or so critical changes made overnight that shall go unmentioned.
Time stop is one of those spells that people abuse on a constant basis, so I think a few rule clarifications are needed.
Firstly, domain spells are counted as divine spells for all rules related purposes. I think certain people now realize this.
Secondly, you cannot harm or target a creature with any spell or attack while time stop is in effect. While it might be fun to think about time stop as one of those spells where you can pull an orc's pants down or write loser across the evil necromancer's forhead, this is impossible under the rules of the spell. Technically, the delayed fireball gambit is solid, since the spell does not have any effect until it explodes. Of course if you made time stop persistent you could actually harm yourself with the DBF and not your foes!
Thirdly, Divine Metamagic is a feat introduced before the inclusion of swift and immediate actions. I actually think the feat would get a serious face-lift these days by game designers. Plus it takes 7 turn attempts to make a time stop persistent, not just 6 (read the feat description carefully).
Fourthly, spells that you cast while under the effects of time stop don't have their durations frozen (they continue as normal). As someone has already mentioned, you would have some serious timekeeping issues to deal with if you wanted your spells to go off when you wanted them to.
On yet another note, time stop doesn't actually freeze time, instead it magically speeds you up for 1d4+1 rounds. If you were sped up for 24 hours, a day would actually pass for you in the space of one round. Unless you ate and slept you would probably be fatigued at the end of it. I also question whether this is a duration in the classic sense of the word, though since you can extend time stop you should probably be able to make it persistent.
Now there are various ways you can handle this problem. Here are my suggestions.
1. Saern's suggestion. A quarut inevitable takes notice and chastises the player. The player (who can't get any help from his buddies because they are all frozen) must deal with a powerful law enforcement officer all by himself.
2. A chronotyrym takes notice and whisks the PC away for study. The chronotyrym's are evil and consider themselves to be the masters of time. You do the math! They are from the FF.
3. A phane from the ELH is drawn to the PCs casting of the spell and really goes to town on him. This is a CR 25 monster, so the PC would have no chance. Best use for this is as an encounter without being an ancounter, e.g. "You feel as if you are being watched. You can't pinpoint the source, but it is malevolent, powerful, and very, very curious."
4. Olidammara throws up his hands in horror after the PC does it for the 5th or 6th time and sends the player an omen. "Olidammara is displeased by your throwaway displays of power. It is getting him the unwanted attention of the other gods."
5. The god of time (or fate) comes down and gives the PC a piece of his mind. The elven god Labelas Enoreth is a good one. The god places a geas on the PC and tells him to stop being a naughty boy.
6. Do nothing, but make the player experience small repercutions for his lack of hindsight. Throw a couple of powerful undead (or a horde of lesser undead) at the party after the PC has spent all his turning attempts by casting time stop. His friends might take umbrage with his use of turning attempts.
Whew!