Question, and I understand the consensus might be to RTFM (Read the Fantasy-role-playing-game Manual) but I have. Several times. And I'm still confused. So please excuse the new guy and help me out if you can.
How do calculate the DC for a wand?
Many thank yous
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Question, and I understand the consensus might be to RTFM (Read the Fantasy-role-playing-game Manual) but I have. Several times. And I'm still confused. So please excuse the new guy and help me out if you can.
How do calculate the DC for a wand?
Many thank yous
Let's see...
The DMG page 214 states that the DC is 10 + spell level + the ability modifier needed to cast that level of spell.
A jazzy wand of inflict critical wounds would have a DC of 10+4+2=16. Which is 10 (base), +4 for the spell level, and because a 4th level spell requires a 14 key attribute (see PHB page 8), +2.
Exactly. You calculate it just as if it were the save DC for a spellcaster with the minimum ability score needed to cast it (10 + spell level). So, it breaks down as follows:
0 level- DC 10
1st level- DC 11
2nd level- DC 13
3rd level- DC 14
4th level- DC 16
5th level- DC 17
6th level- DC 19
7th level- DC 20
8th level- DC 22
9th level- DC 23
I went through all the spell levels, even though wands can't go that high, because this formula is the same for ALL magic items. In effect, they use the lowest save DC that spell can possibly have. This really limits the usefulness of many such items in my eyes, but does give clear direction for a wizard wondering which of his spells he should walk around prepared with, and which he should keep in scroll form. Those without save DCs, scribe! Those with, prepare!
Also note that if a caster has Spell Focus, this does not carry through to the items he crafts. A wand of color spray made by a tweaked-out illusionist with the highest possible save DC he can have is just as powerful as that made by an apprentice conjurer with no focus in illusion whatsoever. The only way to up the save DC of spells in magic items, I think, such as scrolls and wands is to use Heighten Spell, but the use of such metamagic adjusts both the spell level and caster level for the purposes of pricing the item.
Than again, as has been pointed out before, a flying, invisible (improved, that is) wizard with a wand of fireballs, even of just 5th caster level, really probably isn't too worried about the save DC, as he can keep it up long enough and with little enough risk to himself that most foes would be wise to run.
The only exception to this rule on save DCs is the magic stored in staves (staffs?). They use the formula presented above OR the save DC the caster would use if he had cast the spell himself, whichever is higher. Thus, STAVES (staffs?) TOTALLY ROCK!
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Excellent chart, but one quick comment:
Exactly. You calculate it just as if it were the save DC for a spellcaster with the minimum ability score needed to cast it (10 + spell level). So, it breaks down as follows:
0 level- DC 10
1st level- DC 11
2nd level- DC 13
3rd level- DC 14
4th level- DC 16
{snip}
Can't have a wand with a spell higher than 4th level.
But staves do rock.
Well, that's what I was afraid of - sucky DCs. I was thinking of playing a wand-wielding cowboy type rogue, but I'm not too sure how viable he'll be.
Anybody have any cool suggestions? I don't want to over do it, but this seemed like a fun concept.
Thanks for the input so far.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Well, that's what I was afraid of - sucky DCs. I was thinking of playing a wand-wielding cowboy type rogue, but I'm not too sure how viable he'll be.
Anybody have any cool suggestions? I don't want to over do it, but this seemed like a fun concept.
Thanks for the input so far.
It is a cool concept. There are some feats in either Complete Arcane or Complete Adventurer (and also in Eberron Campaign Setting) that allow you to spend additional charges to boost the DC of the wands. It's still going to be a tough to make a powerful character though. I would recommend either (i) focusing on wands that don't require saves (e.g., ray of enfeeblement and other ray spells) or (ii) work with your DM to create a wand cowboy prestige class.
The ray spells works well because you can take weapon focus (ray) and other abilities, plus it lets you use your sneak attack.
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Can't wands be made at a higher caster level? If someones spends more money can't they get a wand of missiles (5th level) instead of a wand of missiles (3rd level)?
Why not do the same with other spells? Higher caster level = Higher DC = Higher cost.Just a thought.
FH
Yeah, this is a bit confusing, but the way I read it the caster level can be just about anything from 5th on up (minimum for Craft Wand) and then does affect stuff like duration, damage, and so on. It does not affect the DC though. The difficulty class is a flat value.
There is a Master Alchemist PrC that allows higher level potions, a Master Wand Wielder PrC (as suggested by Sebastian) could add a few more available levels and increase the DCs for the lower ones.
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Yeah, this is a bit confusing, but the way I read it the caster level can be just about anything from 5th on up (minimum for Craft Wand) and then does affect stuff like duration, damage, and so on. It does not affect the DC though. The difficulty class is a flat value.
There is a Master Alchemist PrC that allows higher level potions, a Master Wand Wielder PrC (as suggested by Sebastian) could add a few more available levels and increase the DCs for the lower ones.
I just picture a wand made by Elminster or Rary or Mordenkainen to have a higher DC then other similar wands, only because of the level of the maker involved not due to reputation or whatever. If I decide to make a wand, I think I, as the creator, should be able to decide the DC of the wand within the constraints of what I can do (metamagically, through feats, PRC's, Metamagic devices, etc.). If I have access to something to "empower" my spell, then I should be able to spend the $$$ and the XP to make it happen.
FH
Yeah, this is a bit confusing, but the way I read it the caster level can be just about anything from 5th on up (minimum for Craft Wand)...
The prerequisites for possessing the Craft Wand feat have nothing to do with the minimum caster level of any wand you might craft using said feat.
The caster level of a wand can be anything from 1st to infinity, as long as it is at least high enough to cast the spell in question (so 1st level for magic missile, 3rd level for scorching ray, 5th level for fireball, etc.)
If I have access to something to "empower" my spell, then I should be able to spend the $$$ and the XP to make it happen.
Heighten Spell.
Wands can be crafted by a creator at higher caster level, higher relevant ability modifier, and with metamagic feats enhancing the spell. The only requiremnt you can not break is the 4th level max spell level. The same goes for any magic item. However if you wish to have an item with higher than 4th level spells, go with a rod or scepter(presented in The Lost Empires of Fearun)wich can have up to 7th level spells if I remember correctly.
The damned computer ate my post again! ARGH! Take two:
Wands can be crafted by a creator at higher caster level, higher relevant ability modifier, and with metamagic feats enhancing the spell.
Sorry, wrong. While someone with a higher key ability can in fact make a wand, the ability modifier of the caster has absolutely no effect on the save DC of the stored spell, whatsoever. None, notta, zilch, zip, zero, nil. It always uses the lowest ability score that can still cast the spell when calculating the save DC, except in the aformention case of staves (staffs?).
However if you wish to have an item with higher than 4th level spells, go with a rod or scepter(presented in The Lost Empires of Fearun)wich can have up to 7th level spells if I remember correctly.
Whatever it is you are talking about must be that scepter thing, because rods do not store spell effects, and thus spell levels are not a factor for determining spell save DCs, and spells of no level can be stored in them.
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there is a PrC in the book Sharn: City of Towers called the Cannith Wand Adept.
they get an ability to dual-use wands, can increase the CL and DC of wands, AND get to apply their int-mods to Wands when they craft them
IIRC, you need to be an arcane caster of ~8/9th lvl, have craft wand, and either favored in house (Cannith) or have the Mark of Making.
(rather obviously, this is an Eberron specific PrC)
i would recommend you look at this, as well as the artificer class, if you want to play the "wand-slinger" type of character.
otherwise: Scorching Ray is your best friend. 1 charge = 4d6 damage, no save.
take "Wandstrike" and you're doing 5d6 with 1 charge and a melee touch attack.
all for 4500 gp, or 2250 to craft.
-the hamster
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Saern is right re: attributes and caster level. There is nothing in the core rules that allows you to use your own attributes or caster level when creating a wand. Heighten is the only way I know of to increase the spell level (and hence the DC). Other metamagic feats can be applied (provided the modified spell is below 4th level). The wand would also not get the benefit of any feats granting a bonus to DC's.
Wands are good for curing, utility spells with a short duration, and giving a little extra juice to those with UMD. They aren't an optimal choice for combat barring a special prestige class or feat.
Refer to page 114 of the "Epic Level Handbook". There's a feat called Enhance Item. You take the feat and choose one of the item creation feats you have access to. Items you create with that item creation feat have a saving throw DC equal to 10 + spell level + your ability modifier instead of the minimum ability modifier.
So for your wand guy just take Enhance Item (Craft Wand), and you're set. The feat can be taken multiple times, once for each item creation feat you got.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Refer to page 114 of the "Epic Level Handbook". There's a feat called Enhance Item. You take the feat and choose one of the item creation feats you have access to. Items you create with that item creation feat have a saving throw DC equal to 10 + spell level + your ability modifier instead of the minimum ability modifier.
So for your wand guy just take Enhance Item (Craft Wand), and you're set. The feat can be taken multiple times, once for each item creation feat you got.
Being in the epic level handbook - is it not an epic feat? I can't find it listed in the SRD epic feats section, but I thought all new feats in the ELH were epic (the various improved feats are in there IIRC because they are pre-reqs for the various epic feats).
Thanks for the correction on the ability score modifier issue. When I made the post, I was nowhere near my books. I was in fact thinking of the epic feat that allows you to break that condition.
In a slight threadjack, how does this affect scrolls? I was under the impression that scrolls were generally dependent upon the attributes of the castor. Therefore things like duration and DC would change depending on who made it. Am I wrong?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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In a slight threadjack, how does this affect scrolls? I was under the impression that scrolls were generally dependent upon the attributes of the castor. Therefore things like duration and DC would change depending on who made it. Am I wrong?
You are. The only exception to the DC/duration is staffs as Saern pointed out above. From the SRD:
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.
Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DC.
You are.
Wait. I don't understand. Sebastion you can tell it to me straight, you don't have to beat around the bush so much.
;)
Thanks for the info. I know you included duration in your response, but I want to double check. If a 9th level cleric scribes a scroll of Bull's Strength it will only last 3 minutes?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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You are.
Wait. I don't understand. Sebastion you can tell it to me straight, you don't have to beat around the bush so much.
;)
Thanks for the info. I know you included duration in your response, but I want to double check. If a 9th level cleric scribes a scroll of Bull's Strength it will only last 3 minutes?
Hey! That was my gentle tone.
You can set the caster level higher, you just have to pay more for the effect. Unfortunately, my source on this is a measley footnote in the scroll table which reads:
Prices assume that the scroll was made at the minimum caster level.
Note that increasing the caster level does not increase the DC, but it will increase the effects based on caster level (such as duration). Your best route is to use Heighten spell, which will allow you to increase both the DC and the caster level based effects (though that will cost you even more).
So in answer to your question, it depends how much your 9th level caster wants to spend. It'll be 75 gp and 6 xp for a scroll at caster level 3 that lasts for 3 minutes or 225 gp and 18 xp for a scroll at caster level 9 that lasts for 9 minutes.
Being in the epic level handbook - is it not an epic feat? I can't find it listed in the SRD epic feats section, but I thought all new feats in the ELH were epic (the various improved feats are in there IIRC because they are pre-reqs for the various epic feats).
It's right there in the book, under the Epic Campaigns chapter. And it's not an Epic feat, either. :D
It'll be 75 gp and 6 xp for a scroll at caster level 3 that lasts for 3 minutes or 225 gp and 18 xp for a scroll at caster level 9 that lasts for 9 minutes.
Slight threadjacking again, but I just have to throw this in there. That is a tiny, tiny amount of XP required, and the GP price is far from anything major, as well. Thus, I have never understood people's objections to using Craft feats on the basis of XP loss. It really is an extremely minor amount that goes into the creation of very useful items. To me, this entire argument seems illogical, and my gut tells me that most of its proponents haven't actually looked at the numbers invovled.
That's all I've got. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.
It's right there in the book, under the Epic Campaigns chapter. And it's not an Epic feat, either. :D
Wow. That's ridiculously awesome. I may have to show this to one or two of my players. I think item creation just might happen more often if more people know about this.
TK
Oh, and Saern? Staves.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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It's right there in the book, under the Epic Campaigns chapter. And it's not an Epic feat, either. :D
Thanks. Is it outside the rest of the feats section? It's not that I doubt you, I'm just wondering why it's not with the other SRD feats. If it's not in the feat chapter, I suppose that makes sense. In any event, it is good to know that such a feat is out there.
Thanks. Is it outside the rest of the feats section? It's not that I doubt you, I'm just wondering why it's not with the other SRD feats. If it's not in the feat chapter, I suppose that makes sense. In any event, it is good to know that such a feat is out there.
Oh no, that's ok. I agree because it really is in a weird spot, just like the "if you roll a 1 on a saving throw, one of your items has to make a save and there's a table for the order of which is affected first" is in the PHB when you'd expect it to be in the DMG and then it's in a weird spot in the PHB.
You get what I mean. *lol*
Something tells me they overlooked it, because it's definitely not in the Epic Feats chapter or even on the list as a non-epic feat. It's in Chapter 3: Running an Epic Game and on page 114 under the heading "New Uses for Old Magic Items".
It's a few paragraphs about how in an Epic game, you can still make use of non-epic magic items but the problem is, obviously, the low saving throw DCs. Even taking advantage of Heighten Spell isn't enough, of course, so they give a few examples of magic items and their save DCs and then conclude with using the non-epic feat Enhance Item to get more use out of such magic items.
It always uses the lowest ability score that can still cast the spell when calculating the save DC, except in the aformention case of staves.
I started talking with my players about this and they were very interested in finding the exact reference in the books. So I went looking. I'm sure it's in there somewhere, but I can't find it. I found Sebastion's reference in the scroll table but I just can't find anything about the attributes applied to item creation. Help? Book and page number would be great. Thanks!
It always uses the lowest ability score that can still cast the spell when calculating the save DC, except in the aformention case of staves.I started talking with my players about this and they were very interested in finding the exact reference in the books. So I went looking. I'm sure it's in there somewhere, but I can't find it. I found Sebastion's reference in the scroll table but I just can't find anything about the attributes applied to item creation. Help? Book and page number would be great. Thanks!
SAVING THROWS AGAINST MAGIC ITEM POWERS
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like ability from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell. For example, a 2nd-level spell's save DC would be 10 + 2 (for the spell being 2nd level) + 1 (for needing at least a 12 in the relevant ability score to cast a 2nd level spell), or a total of 13.Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DC.
However, the section on staves (which, oddly enough gets spelled Staffs in the header... guess they couldn't make up their minds which one to use) adds that "the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it's higher than the caster level of the staff." Which means that an apprentice using his master's staff will still use it at 12th caster level or whatever as if he had a 16 Intelligence.
Many thanks TK. That's just what I was looking for.