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I've been wondering about this question for some time now, and I can come to no clear cut answer. Here goes.
Clerics gain their spells by praying to their god and their god, in return, uses a very small fraction of its divine power in order to give the spells to that particular cleric. Since more worshipers means more power, and more power means more spells, and more spells means happier clerics.
Here's the rub though. There are those clerics who do not worship a deity of any kind. THey worship what most people would consider as abhorent: demon lords and princes.
I know that there are cases where the very belief in something can allow a cleric to cast spells, as in the case of certain cults. But demon lords are not beliefs: they are "real." Yet clerics, as far as I can tell, "pray" to these lords and princes, and recieves spells. The Book of Vile Darkness even gives domains for big lords and dukes of Hell. Asmodeus and Mephisopheles I can understand, a they are, as far as anyone can tell, gods in their own right. But the Maures and certain other lesser clerics recieve their spells from lesser lords.
I guess my question is this: how are any spells coming from demon lord/prince-cleric?
Clerics don't actually have to worship a deity (see PH, v 3.5, pg 30). They can devote themselves to a cause and choose domains associated with that cause. Those who venerate demon lords, etc. would have domains appropriate to those creatures, hence the listing of domains for creatures who are not actually deities.
This is my understanding of how that whole thing works.
That kind of works. However, the archfiends aren't concepts, and thus the clerics have devoted themselves to something more tangible, but something certainly less than divine, yet they still recieve spells. Look at a great wyrm red dragon. The CR of such creatures is actually far in excess of the standard demon lord. Yet, they have no clerics. Generally speaking, you don't have cults dedicated to actually worshipping an actual dragon that actually recieve spells.
Personally, I hate the thought that a cleric can just devote themselves to an alignment, rather than an actual deity, but that's really not what this thread is about.
The answer, as I understand it, is proxies. The demon lords are actually funneling divine power from a true god to their worshippers. Basically, Baphomet goes to Erythnul and strikes a deal that, if Baphomet gets to grant spells to his cult by using Erythnul's power, the God of Slaughter gets a hefty fraction of that "soul power" or whatever it actually is that the deities get from worshippers. Atleast, that's what I've been able to piece together from references here and there.
Yup, that how it works, deals are made and the cultists get their spells. The deity however gets an indebted demon lord, which can be pretty handy if you've agreed to a non-intervention pact with the other deities....It wasn't me that culled you herd of worshippers, no sir, not me at all (bwhahah factor is high)
I lump the Abyss acting as a deity with worshipping alignments in general. The core rules support it, and every DM can do what he wants with it, but for me, that's just stupid.
Deities are essentially the sum of their worshippers' faith, creatures of obscene power created, defined by, and sustained through mortal belief.
Archfiends are something far more primal. They're physical manifestations of an abstract concept: malign chaos, pure evil, tyranny, etc. These are creatures anchored to universal concepts, expressing and personifying portions of them in the flesh, and not subject to the need for mortal belief to empower them.
The archfiends have just as much claim to being able to grant bits of their power to clerics, though their desires and needs may be less worship than the ability to influence the cleric and the cleric's people on the prime material or elsewhere. They're giving 'divine' spells not to collect worshippers, but to sully the souls of mortals across the multiverse, swelling the ranks of the Abyss, swelling the ranks of the 9 Hells, or seeking a 'perfect universe devoid of mercy'.
You could also view the archfiends as not granting bits of their own power, but serving as a devotional conduit for the power of their alignment/plane itself. Icons and figureheads of the Abyss, the Waste, the Hells, etc.
Look at a great wyrm red dragon. The CR of such creatures is actually far in excess of the standard demon lord. Yet, they have no clerics. Generally speaking, you don't have cults dedicated to actually worshipping an actual dragon that actually recieve spells.
But there's nothing to say that you can't. Actually, it would kind of make sense for a Great Wyrm Red Dragon, who has lived for almost a thousand years, to have a few clerics and worshippers. Chaos, Evil, Fire, Destruction... that would about cover the domains. I mean, it's a CR 26 Dragon! It might as well be some ancient veangeful deity to the mewling mortals who behold it. Of course, the dragon's not actually granting the spells - but when the dragon finally dies, and its clerics are still casting spells, that'd be a pretty good argument for divine ascension!
I think the last issue of Dragon (or perhaps the one before it) even had Draconic Domains for Chromatic, Metallic, and Gem dragons.
Divine spellcasting is, to me, a matter of faith. Believe in something strongly enough, and if you're one of the chosen (a cleric), your wishes will be granted - for as long as you continue to have faith, that is.
TK
Then my cleric worships his kitchen utensils. They grant access to the Metal, Crafting, and Gluttony domains (no idea which books they are in, but they're all real). My granted power is to create food and water at will. I have total and supreme confidence that my fork is the moving element of the universe.
But what if your PC wanted to knock one of those demon lords out of that power chair and take over his seat. Would all that power/worship flow to him/her as soon as she gained the title. Also is there a demonlord, archfiend, or Overlord (yes Disgaea rocks) template anywhere that you can bestow upon the PC that attains it?
Then my cleric worships his kitchen utensils. They grant access to the Metal, Crafting, and Gluttony domains (no idea which books they are in, but they're all real). My granted power is to create food and water at will. I have total and supreme confidence that my fork is the moving element of the universe.
Lo, my kitchen utensils, I do worship them.
The whisk and the paring knife,the rolling pin and the measuring cup,
they do comfort me.
And I shall repeat the name of our holiest,
Betty Crocker, Emeril Lagasse, Mario Batali, Biba Caggiano, Marcel Desaulnier.
And I shall give voice to the knife artistry and plating designs of Hiroyuki Sakai and Masaharu Morimoto.
May our cookies never burn and our sauces never break.
Amen.
(What, you don't worship the kitchen as the sacredest place in your home? :D)
May our ... our sauces never break.You break your sauce?
Huh?
Oh, man, you totally don't want to break your sauce. It's like splitting the party. But if you do, all is not lost.
May our ... our sauces never break.You break your sauce?
Huh?
Umm...
It's what happens when you're making a sauce or a dressing and it doesn't congeal together properly or you've overworked it and it separates out (see here). Kinda like what happens when you think you can melt ordinary cheese and have it come out like Velveeta - it doesn't work very well. :O
Alternatively, you could say "and our Jello always sets" - I made a pie when I was a kid and there wasn't enough gelatin in it to keep it together. I had good intentions - a chocolate cream pie. It turned more like chocolate slop - my filling didn't set at ALL and slid out all over the plate like a sentient ooze. Still tasted great, though, which I don't think I could say for a bad cheese sauce.
Ahem... appreciation for my comment aside, the point I was making was that I consider it stupid to allow characters to worship anything other than a deity. If it becomes a matter of faith, where do you draw the line? No, much easier it is to actually just say, "Clerics cast spells because the gods let them." Not because the cleric believes so hard in the god. Because the god decided to give that cleric his spells. I still subscribe to the notion that deities draw a lot of their power from the faithful (though I don't like the bit about them existing purely because they're believed in, and I like to think of the archfiends as a little more "solid" than being a piece of evil itself defined). However, the clerics only have spells because their god decided to return some of that mojo to them.
All that's just my opinion, but the options opened by the alternative (I worship good! I worship a place/state of mind!) don't set at all with my ideals of clerics and their big batteries in the sky.
Hmm...
Just my two coppers or cents here, but I've always felt that while clerics COULD worship a deity, it was never necessary for them to do so. They could study or worship the forces of the multiverse itself (magic, elements, alignment, whatever). So I could certainly see worshipping an arch fiend or even celestial paragon as a way to tap into particular forces or portfolios. Actually, I've always been a little bugged by the fact that deities grant alignment domains at all. That should come only from the cleric channelling the raw power of a particular alignment from his own soul, spirit, katra, pagh, whatever term you wish to apply. Truthfully, in in real life I'm an agnostic atheist but I certainly respect religion and in D & D it actually works and can actually be approached as a science of a sort which is intriguing. Anyway just some random thoughts. Peace and long life
Well, then, if you aren't already, Eberron is the setting for you! At least, to take a look at for how they handle their gods.
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I still subscribe to the notion that deities draw a lot of their power from the faithful (though I don't like the bit about them existing purely because they're believed in, and I like to think of the archfiends as a little more "solid" than being a piece of evil itself defined). However, the clerics only have spells because their god decided to return some of that mojo to them.
Overall, I agree with you -- but...
Especially in regards to the Forgotten Realms, it seems like quite a number of times a god (or two) have taken over a "portfolio" of worshipers and ended up getting their powers from gods other than the ones they were worshipping -- especially when it came to gods dying.
If you take this one step further, it is entirely possible for a god to grant spells for an ancient red dragon "minion" without most of the worshippers knowing about it. Same thing with powerful outsiders. The cleric's spells may not actually be granted by the outsider but rather a more powerful entity that has taken on the outsider's "portfolio". In this case, perhaps Lloth is granting cleric spells to the "Kitchen Utensil Cult".
In the end, though, a lot of this is symantics. If you want a cult of the red dragon to have access to cleric spells -- give them cleric spells. If it becomes important the source of the granted spells, then figure out if the dragon actually has diefic powers. If the dragon doesn't, then think about what entity would have the power and would have an interest in these clerics.
For what it's worth...
Very true. Other than my own interest in the semantics in it, I mainly get my feathers ruffled over the issue because I don't like the total openness of a cleric of "abstract goodness." I like player choice and everything, but I also have no problem with putting limits on it in certain aspects and saying, "These are the rules. You want divine spells in my game? Pick a legitimage deity."
Although, letting a cleric choose an unusual creature as a focus for worship would be interesting. He could be a pawn in the games of a god he doesn't know he's worshipping. Deffinately not something to exploit to often, but it might make for an interesting experiment....