Thanks for the threads on Monks and Lawful Neutral- as well as multiclassing as a cleric, or in this case, it still applies since he's going paladin.
Alright, here's a simple pickle. I have a monk who wants to multiclass as a paladin say around level 6th *(after he finishes buying into his Sleeping Tiger style optioned from Unearthed Arcana), I plan on getting him to level 7 before he does that since he'll be able to HEAL HIMSELF after that.
Anyway, he wants to take spiked gauntlets as a paladin, so 4 questions...
1. Does it improve upon his unarmed strike? Seems like a no brainer, but...what sort of damage would it do?
2. Does he get to keep his flurry of blows? The restrictive weapons list says no, but I'd probably say yes since the mechanics behind the jump to gauntlets/gloves is ridiculously low, especially if I just allowed Cestus instead- which are more so spiked gloves I would say. (I am aware of the Ward Cestus from the Arms and equipment guide, which as far as my last question goes, I know increases his defensive armor bonus by 1. I'd probably let him take it without the exotic weapon proficiency since he's got improved unarmed strike so he'd probably know how to block with his friggin fists already!)
3. if he punches a skeleton with spiked gauntlets or a cestus, would it still do bludgeoning damage for him or just piercing?
4. Can he smite with his fists, if so, that'd be freaking awesome.
So yeah, I like the idea he has, especially the whole smiting undead with his fists, but to make it work I have to allow several things.
1. A shift in alignment. Forced, coerced, encouraged or in reverse-I could allow a Lawful Neutral Paladin, but wouldn't that screw up the smiting ability? (and shouldn't he be waiting for the Ki strike- lawful to kick in?)
2. Weapons? Favored weapon of his deity is Scimitar, hardly a favored weapon of the monk class, but its been his deity from the start so arguably his monastary would allow it. But cestus/spiked gauntlets, do you HAVE to be unarmed to do the superior unarmed damage? I might even see if I can allow him claw bracers (Again from Arms and Equipment guide) since he'll probably be facing a few zombies.
3. Multiclassing, I could allow him to continue multiclassing as a monk, theoretically, maybe he'd have to take a feat to do it, but I could allow it under the circumstances. (Monastary encourages his relationship with his deity, Church/Temple of his god in the city he's now a part of would encourage his smiting fist techniques since it'd be advantageous against undead, especially with a kama/scimitar combo (again if I allow it). I could just let him don armor, but then I wouldn't see him as the mobile monk character and that'd make any points he put in wisdom almost useless.
4. AC bonuses, he only gets wisdom if he is unencumbered and unarmored, what sort of methods might I allow, encourage, and use to increase his AC without doing something smacking of favoritism?
But yes, advice, criticism, comments, etc. Please leave them so I can help my player achieve this goal since it isn't too typical of his min/maxing attitude. (for one thing he wants to play a Paladin, he hates paladins, or so he told me a while ago, secondly he's ditching one of his favored classes at 6th or if I can help it 7th level, for one that isn't necessarily a power improvement, though it would help him tank in the long run.)
It'd also be pretty cool if it worked, am I right?
(Fyi, the setting is Ghostwalk, the monastary is of course the one south of Manifest- which is outside of the manifest ward, right? cuz it'd be cool if it was sort of on the edge and allowed ghost monks to train there too, because his character is a ghost monk now- which is great if he's in the manifest ward, or if he gets a ring of manifestation- which he might from a certain npc dwarf. The deity in question is Dracanish, lawful neutral, totally against undead, so cleric and paladin don't seem out of question for a monk to jump into if he's a pious follower, martial weapon proficiency less so and armor usage less so, but his idea seems to work for the most part even if it is a little flawed or munckin-esque. Really I just have to worry about metagaming since he probably knows as much about unarmed combat as his player would since he was with the Marines and so forth.)
EDIT: He's also considering, at least at my pressuring, taking Reaping Mauler (Complete Warrior) as a prestige class, but to do that I'd have to really reinforce his unarmed strikes and grappling and reduce his potential use of weapons. (monk weapons do that well since they rarely do more damage or much more damage than an unarmed strike and really are only advantageous when it is a weapon like a kama that can do slashing damage which you can't do without versatile unarmed strike (PHB2)- which is about as overpowered a feat as you can get even at level 8.)
My two cents:
...he wants to take spiked gauntlets as a paladin... Does it improve upon his unarmed strike?
No -- the rules are fairly specific that spiked gauntlets aren't an unarmed strike.
Does he get to keep his flurry of blows
Not with the gauntlets.
if he punches a skeleton with spiked gauntlets or a cestus, would it still do bludgeoning damage for him or just piercing?
Piercing, per weapon description.
Can he smite with his fists?
Absolutely.
...to make it work I have to allow several things.
1. A shift in alignment...
2. Weapons...
3. Multiclassing...
4. AC bonuses...
I think you're changing too much. You're taking an arguably balanced class and easing quite a few restrictions -- you're taking away many of the limitations that keep it balanced.
IMHO :)
Jack
My two cents:
...he wants to take spiked gauntlets as a paladin... Does it improve upon his unarmed strike?No -- the rules are fairly specific that spiked gauntlets aren't an unarmed strike.
Does he get to keep his flurry of blowsNot with the gauntlets.
if he punches a skeleton with spiked gauntlets or a cestus, would it still do bludgeoning damage for him or just piercing?Piercing, per weapon description.
Can he smite with his fists?Absolutely.
...to make it work I have to allow several things.
1. A shift in alignment...
2. Weapons...
3. Multiclassing...
4. AC bonuses...I think you're changing too much. You're taking an arguably balanced class and easing quite a few restrictions -- you're taking away many of the limitations that keep it balanced.
IMHO :)
Jack
Well, thanks. I figured a lot of HIS ideas weren't by the book.
But, I will allow Ward Cestus, according to the Arms and Equipment Guide, they DO count as an Unarmed strike and do that damage, but there's a metal plate in the back good for protection.But, what damage would an ex-monk do with spiked gauntlets, I can't sit there and reasonably say they'd do a d4 when the spiked gauntlet damage is based on a regular unarmed strike of a 1d3, can I?
Still, since you don't address the last questions,
1. I think a shift in alignment is doable, though I don't think I'll change the Lawful Good requirement for paladin.
2. Weapons, I might let him use a scimitar, but that'd be a stretch (in fact I wouldn't let it count with his flurry of blows, obviously).
3. Multclassing, I probably won't make any major changes, but might allow a feat to multiclass as a monk.
4. AC Bonuses, he's making the assertions about circlets of wisdom and bracers of armor and so on, I'm not obliged to GIVE him any of these things, but an encounter with a higher level monk might offer up these sort of goodies and a circlet or other item that increases wisdom would easily be used by the monk of the party to increase AC, and bracers of armor would be something he could probably save money for or some other item.
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well, all you really need is a shift in alignment (from LN to LG is not too big a stretch), and, if he wants to continue to level as a monk, the Monastic Training (Paladin) feat.
(said feat can be found in the Eberron Campaign Setting)
as far as weapon/armor/etc changes...
why?
Monk + Paladin = not going to be affected by magic. period. perfect saves for the monk, plus 2 good saves for Pally, PLUS divine grace?
this was what a player of mine came up with, and he had saves averaging about 2xlvl across the board. after being reincarnated a couple of times, that got even better.
-the hamster
well, all you really need is a shift in alignment (from LN to LG is not too big a stretch), and, if he wants to continue to level as a monk, the Monastic Training (Paladin) feat.
(said feat can be found in the Eberron Campaign Setting)
as far as weapon/armor/etc changes...
why?
Monk + Paladin = not going to be affected by magic. period. perfect saves for the monk, plus 2 good saves for Pally, PLUS divine grace?
this was what a player of mine came up with, and he had saves averaging about 2xlvl across the board. after being reincarnated a couple of times, that got even better.
-the hamster
well, its mostly the player's idea, the AC bonuses and the weapon changes. (maybe not the scimitar, that was my consideration, though I'd certainly let him carry one though why he would want to use it is beyond me)
But he is planning on stopping advancement as a monk at level 6, now with the Monastic Training feat his AC and damage could still go up (not to mention he could actually take level 7 and make me happier by increasing his survivability).I still like the idea of getting him ward cestus instead of spiked gauntlets since they wouldn't muck up his unarmed strike and would give him a +1 ac bonus to what he likes doing, fighting defensively.