Combining natural attacks with manufactured weapons


3.5/d20/OGL


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Question One: Why is it, that a critter with a slam attack is almost always limited to a single slam per round, regardless of BAB?

Question Two: Why does a critter fighting with a manufactured weapon who (also) has a slam attack get to exhaust all iterative attacks and then follow up with a slam at max BAB minus five; but if it chose to ONLY make a slam attack it could do ONE slam at full BAB ?

Question Three: If a slam takes a standard action (and thus isn't available for iterative attacks) why could you make iterative attacks and then tack a slam on at the end? (or is that just restating both questions in a different way?)

Note: No natural weapons (accd to MM p312) can be used more than once per rd regardless of high BAB.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if it requires so much of one's full attention to complete a natural attack, why can a natural attack be combined with a manufactured weapon?


Actually, a creature with only a single slam attack can't use a manufactured weapon and a slam attack at the same time. Only if the creature has two slam attacks can it use a slam attack and a manufactured weapon at the same time. Of course, this is counted as using two weapons, so most creatures with slam attacks that can use manufactured weapons, choose one or the other.

To give you a few examples:

A stone golem and a cloud giant both have two slam attacks if they make a full attack. There is nothing to stop them using a manufactured weapon in one hand and making a slam with the other, though they would make all such attacks using the two-weapon fighting penalty (most natural slam attacks are treated as light weapons).

Creatures that have only a single slam attack (such as the warforged of Eberron) cannot use the above option. They are considered to be using both of their fists to make the slam attack. That's why creatures with a single slam attack add one and a half times their strength bonus to damage because its like they're attacking with a two-handed weapon. Note also that very few creatures with a slam attack only get one slam attack unless they are Medium size or smaller.

Natural weapons never follow the rules of manufactured weapons when it comes to multiple attacks unless you are a monk. That's why most giants prefer to use weapons rather than their fists in combat, if they even have that option (an ogre has no natural attacks, and a disarmed ogre is an easy meal).

I hope that helps, though it doesn't answer all your questions (for instance, your philosophical stance about natural attacks used in combination with weapons is a feasible stance to take. Unfortunately, rules and reality don't necessarily mix for multiple reasons). That's just the way it is.


And; why are there not feats to increase the slam attack.


Valegrim wrote:
And; why are there not feats to increase the slam attack.

Good ida. Some kind of Richter Force feat. I think Bam-Bam has it.


eris wrote:

Question One: Why is it, that a critter with a slam attack is almost always limited to a single slam per round, regardless of BAB?

You answered this yourself, here:

eris wrote:


Note: No natural weapons (accd to MM p312) can be used more than once per rd regardless of high BAB.

Next two questions are the same, as you pointed out:

eris wrote:


I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if it requires so much of one's full attention to complete a natural attack, why can a natural attack be combined with a manufactured weapon?

If you flip to the glossary in the MM, p 311 and look up Manufactured Weapons (which a slam is included in), you'll see in the last part that:

Thes secondary attacks do no interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon dose, but they take the usual -5 penalty [...] for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature's primary natural weapon.

Hope that helps!
-c


Valegrim wrote:
And; why are there not feats to increase the slam attack.

How about Improved Natural Attack?

-c


Great catch about the -5 penalty Clint. I knew that part of my post was wrong. I suspected it was the whole off-hand thing.


Phil. L wrote:
Creatures that have only a single slam attack (such as the warforged of Eberron) cannot use the above option. They are considered to be using both of their fists to make the slam attack.

Not only have I never seen this stated in any D&D sourcebook, but I have seen (and used) characters that have a single slam attack use it as a secondary weapon following up on their iterative attacks. I'll go look up the specific sources now.

TK


Monster Manual, page 299 wrote:

FULL ATTACK

...
Natural and Manufactured Weapons: If a creature has both a manufactured weapon and natural weapons, it usually uses its manufactured weapon as its primary attack (and receives multiple attacks with that weapon, if its base attack bonus is +6 or higher), and uses its natural weapons as secondary attacks (-5 penalty on attack rolls, and 1/2 Strength bonus on damage rolls). While a humanoid fighting with a two weapons takes a -2 penalty (or worse) on its primary attack, a monster fighting with a handheld weapon and a natural weapon at the same times (s.p.) does not take this penalty - the natural weapon is a secondary attack, and that's all.

If a creature uses its sole natural attack and only its sole natural attack, it can throw all of its strength into the attack - thus the +1-1/2 Strength modifier on damage rolls. This applies regardless of what type of natural attack it is, be it claw, slam, bite, or sting. All natural weapons used as secondary natural attacks, whether they are normally or not, apply +1/2 Strength modifier (The only thing that breaks this rule is the tail slap of a true dragon). Since the sole natural attack damage modifier applies to any natural attack, it doesn't make sense to say that the creature is "two-handing" the natural weapon - they're not picking up their tail or horn or jaws and swinging them around with both hands - why do they need to use both hands to use a slam?

This also doesn't make sense from a roleplaying perspective - say the uber-vampire picks up the fledgling adventurer who invaded his crypt with one hand (taking that -20 on his grapple check). Now he can only use his unarmed strike to whack the unfortunate unlikely hero around? That would seem a bit wimpy in comparison, seeing as how the energy drain effect only applies to the vampire's natural attacks, and unless the vampire is a monk or has Improved Unarmed Strike, he's provoking AoO every time he goes to punch.

TK

Scarab Sages

eris wrote:
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if it requires so much of one's full attention to complete a natural attack, why can a natural attack be combined with a manufactured weapon?

As far as why, or logic is concerned -- I think that the main reason was to try and provide some consistency with natural attacks without getting bogged down with MANY different sub-rules or exceptions. There are MANY different creatures that have special abilities tied to their slam attack. If they were allowed to use it many times each round, it could really become devastating to the party quickly. (If a high-level vampire could slam 4-5 times a round and drain each time, it could get really ugly really quick.) There is also the "well if they can do it with a slam, what about a tentacle? the bite attack? claw attack?" etc.

All that I am trying to say is, there are a number of creatures that I might be convinced should have additional slam attacks due to higher BAB. There are a lot of creatures that I don't feel it fits for. (I feel that giants should. I feel that golems should not.) Do what you feel is right for your game regardless of the rules. Just be warned that you will most likely need to justify it for other creatures down the road. Either way, I wouldn't allow a creature with a special ability tied to the slam/tentcle/etc. attack more than one use of the special ability each round and state that it has to be the first attack for the round.


eris wrote:
Why is it, that a critter with a slam attack is almost always limited to a single slam per round, regardless of BAB?

Mostly game balance. Natural attacks such as slams often do much more damage than manufactured weapons, and often also have additional effects to back them up (see a vampire's energy drain ability). Since natural attacks are normally the province of monsters rather than PCs, this was done so monsters don't slaughter the PCs quite so fast. Also, if monsters could make multiple attacks with natural weapons, what exactly would a dragon's attack line read as? Dragons have 2 claws, a bite, 2 wing buffets, and a really nasty tail slap - would you want it getting to make a full attack with each of those weapons?

EDIT: Heh, beaten to the punch.

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