I´m finally pinning down my ideas for my next campaign, and I´d like to hear your comments on this:
I´m now planning my evil campaign, which is to start in two weeks.
I´ll have underdark PCs only, a svirfneblin expert/artificer, a duergar/half-earth elemental fighter, and a female drow/tiefling priestess of Vhaeraun, aspiring to be an assassin. I know that priests of Vhaeraun are mostly male (or exclusively, depending on the source), but it makes for a nice background story.
The starting class level will be 3.
The strange templates I used are simply to get around the level adjustments, even if half-elementals are “worth” a +3 LA per the RAW, but I think +2 is ok for this template. I know tiefling is technically not a template, but it is easy to implement as such.
I will develop some side stories from the templates , but have nothing too specific right now.
The very vague outline of my campaign is like this:
I will try to recreate a bit of the feeling of the evil campaigns from Heroes of Might and Magic III, so it will be something quite military in outlook.
The story behind it looks like this to date:
The PCs are outcasts from their respective societies for varying reasons, some not yet defined. While travelling through the underdark, they encounter a mind flayer expedition who is up to more than finding food. The PCs will be overwhelmed shortly (a single mind flayer should suffice) and examined thoroughly mentally. The mind flayer is searching suitable candidates to help the mind flayers in finally executing the elder brains big scheme, to conquer the surface and in a second step, blot out the sun so that the mind flayers can rule supreme. Mind Flayers follow their elder brain without question, so they don´t question this hare-brained plan…
Nevertheless, the PCs task after examination and brain-washing will be to find suitable support for the first surface conquest, a human nation dedicated to the gods of good. This will, in keeping with the HOMM idea, start quite humbly, perhaps with goblins, kobolds or something like this, but should run its course so that the PCs will at about 10-12th level be able to lead a veritable army.
The nation to be attacked is none other than the Shield Lands north of the Nyr Dyv in the World of Greyhawk, about 580/581 CY. That this attack is in time with the attacks by the Horned Society is no coincidence: The plan to blot out the sun was not the elder brains own idea, but rather comes from the Archdevil Asmodeus, who has taken a personal interest in seeing the Shield Lands destroyed. And he sees that the Horned Society alone will probably not have the power to do this, as they are also warring with the Bandit Kingdoms, and are not unified within their own ranks. So he looked and found that Mind Flayer community with its slightly insane Elder Brain, and he toyed with it until the Elder Brain came up with its great plan…
Mind Flayers are not large in numbers and are one of the most feared and mistrusted races in the underdark (and that’s saying something !), so the Elder Brain decided it needed help from lesser races in its scheme (with a little prodding by Asmodeus, who saw the defects clearly…), and sent out small groups to find suitable candidates.
But what even Asmodeus himself had not foreseen was the return of Iuz, which will make short work of the successes of the Horned Society, and the Society itself. So everything the PCs might have achieved in fighting on the surface will not be theirs to keep. It might even be that the demonic forefather of the drow (remember the tiefling template ?) will be someone connected to Iuz, perhaps even Graz´zt himself.
I already think of playing a good campaign after this set on negating the evil ones successes, but that will have to wait...
What do you think ? Any comments are welcome.
Stefan
Sounds good for the most part. I would point out that 'brainwashing' seems to be a railroading of the players and could be a trouble spot with them. Most players prefer to chose the direction and/or tasks they do. Once it is forced on them, they may not enjoy it as much since they now must move in only the direction the DM tell them to.
Cool.
This goes along with my line of thinking... Even if the PCs are evil, there's ALWAYS a bigger evil than them.
I find, in these types of scenarios, that making the players 'pawns' or 'cannon fodder' of a bigger plan is always interesting. Specially when the players have no idea they are being used for a greater destructive outcome (which usually involves sacrificing the players at some point).
Ultradan
It may just be me, but I don't like save the world premises for campaigns, especially at low levels. Exploration, trade, local disturbance, revenge, personal growth, I think make for better starts, elvoling to local political intrigue, a cousin in league with a mindflayer - mindflayer gains influence, food, safety money, lab resources, cousin gains magical/psionic support, and maybe the barony (or whatever), and so on.
But in even that depends on how you peel back the onion.
In general (in my experience - which is far from universal) players take 3-5 levels to real get a feel for their characters so whil I actually think its kind of cool that you have a plan up to 10 levels ahead - thats leading the characters to a specific set-up for a long time. I personally like to create a world and let the characters explorer it.
I assume you know your players - but a lot of players don't want to lead armies - wargaming and roleplaying are in my mind pretty different - but you can be the judge if that fits your game.
Well those are my thoughts.
Whatever you do good luck with your game - Have Fun!
Lord Silky, thanks for pointing out the trouble spot of brainwashing. I will rethink that. Perhaps the Mind Flayers offer them something in return (not that they would intend to deliver, anyway...)
I don´t plan at present to sacrifice the PCs. Perhaps if the good campaign gets rolling, I will keep them as enemies for the good guys (probably the same players) to vanquish in the end.
Stefan
Kyr, I surely don´t want to start saving (or destroying) the world with them, thats why they have to slowly build their power base.
I don´t intend to make a wargame out of it, as my players would not enjoy, now I come to think of it, and I don´t either (thanks for pointing that out clearly). I intend to have strategical combats and the like take a backseat to roleplaying.
They will explore the underdark (and perhaps the surface) n the start to get to know their enemies and allies (which may be the same at different times...)
Thanks for your input.
Stefan
Thanks for your input.
You're welcome!
I am glad you weren't offended.Just remember free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.
Cheers!
I like those ideas, here are my two cents:
Couldn't you let the campaign start after the characters got dominated by the mind flayers without telling the players that this happended? Their characters would have an urge to follow their "own" plans and it would make a nice twist when they finally find out that they are not really working for themselves but are only minions for an even greater evil.
I am glad you weren't offended.
Well, if I were that easily offended, I shouldn´t have asked for criticism in the first place, don´t you think ? :-)
Just remember free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.Cheers!
Well said. That´s why I make a point to react to advice I get here.
Stefan
I like those ideas, here are my two cents:
Couldn't you let the campaign start after the characters got dominated by the mind flayers without telling the players that this happended? Their characters would have an urge to follow their "own" plans and it would make a nice twist when they finally find out that they are not really working for themselves but are only minions for an even greater evil.
Hmm... that contradicts the advice against using brainwshing in an earlier post, but it is a intriguing idea - I think my players are mature enough that if I state: " You feel a strong urge to do (insert plot goal here)", they would probably go with it. And if I let drop hints here and there that someting is amiss, it will make the game even more interesting.
Just using brainwashing to get the group together is probably too much railroading, but making it part of the plot by adding a mystery element could work nicely. And I always wanted to do a campaign with the PCs starting out with memories incomplete. I like that idea ! Thanks.Stefan
nice to see Greyhawk is still used as a setting.
I always try to fit my ideas in there. On these boards, quite a few still use Greyhawk, I think - the editors of Dragon and Dungeon can be counted among them, it is rumored :-))
Do you plan for fighting within the group?
How can evil guys get healing magic?
I don´t outright plan that they fight each other, but I´ll see if they do and see how I can react then. I believe in letting the game flow in the direction the players want.
Healing magic is not restricted to the good guys in 3.5. And as they have a priestess, it should be no big problem - basically, at least. If the others have to pay for healing, that´s ok to me.
I like your campaign idea, especially if your players can handle that "urge" to do things.
We´ll see if they really can. If the campaign is running, I will post in the campaign journals section.
Stefan
I think the major point (about railroading) has been made. Instead of doing it in game, make it part of the game setup. (That way, they don't have to play through the part you've already pre-determined-- if they don't get to make choices, skip to the part where they do.)
So tell them that their characters begin with an idea, implanted by the Mind Flayers, that they're to blot out the Sun by recruiting allies and the like. (Also: how are you going to enforce them to go with the plan in real life? How deep a compulsion is it, and how much can they sidetrack before the reins are pulled taut? Would it work as well if they had an NPC Mindflayer "ally" who traveled with the party and "encouraged" them to act on the Elder Brain's behalf? That way they can plan and negotiate-- interact with the plan and choose to struggle or make it their own.)
Try to make sure that they have real choices to make along the way. Your idea of the tiefling blood being Iuz's allows a "switching sides" offer to be made.
Good luck!
Hi,
Perhaps you don't need to do any brainwashing at all to motivate your evildoers...
I would handle things this way:
The characters start the campaign at the hands of the mind flayers. They are their prisoners. Perhaps the illithids attacked the player's underground city or ambushed them somewhere in the underdark.
The mind flayers announce their plans to eat the prisoner's brains, except for those who volunteer to serve them. I'm pretty sure most players, regardless of actual alignment, would agree to serve them just to save their own hides. Paladins and LG characters may be willing to die for their ideals, but most other players would not.
Once they are released and given their orders, the party would be perfectly free to betray or backstab their employers, if they so wish (they are evil, after all, so this shouldn't come as a surprise). The party would be under constant survellaince, of course, just to make sure they carry their out their orders. If they don't, they could be killed or perhaps they have family members, spouses, etc. still imprisoned.
I'm pretty sure the players would have a lot of fun attempting to outsmart their captors. They could pretend to follow along (many ranks in bluff would be crucial) while they plot their own conspiracy. Maybe they like the mind flayer plan and simply want a bigger piece of the pie.
My point is: PC's don't have to be forced into anything. If you offer good motivation (and evil PCs, with all their lust and greed are pretty easy to motivate) they should do whatever you'd like them to.
I think everyones emphasis on "brainwashing" the PC's is missplaced. If they are truly going to be evil characters, they shouldn't need any convincing to throw the surface into utter darkness and chaos. Drow, duergar, and other underdark dwellers should be happy to follow a plan that would allow them to walk freely on the surface exacting revenge on old enemies: drow slaying elves, duergar fighting dwarves/gnomes, etc.
The other thing I would advise is to plan on the characters being evil and responding accordingly. Expect them to fight each other, steal from everyone and be otherwise naughty characters. For every evil party out there, there is a comparable number of good NPC's and organizations that should be trying to stop them.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I like those ideas, here are my two cents:
Couldn't you let the campaign start after the characters got dominated by the mind flayers without telling the players that this happended? Their characters would have an urge to follow their "own" plans and it would make a nice twist when they finally find out that they are not really working for themselves but are only minions for an even greater evil.
Hmm... that contradicts the advice against using brainwshing in an earlier post, but it is a intriguing idea - I think my players are mature enough that if I state: " You feel a strong urge to do (insert plot goal here)", they would probably go with it. And if I let drop hints here and there that someting is amiss, it will make the game even more interesting.
Just using brainwashing to get the group together is probably too much railroading, but making it part of the plot by adding a mystery element could work nicely. And I always wanted to do a campaign with the PCs starting out with memories incomplete. I like that idea ! Thanks.Stefan
I like Talon's idea as well. Keep in mind that once you start playing with PC perception, you don't have to be entirely truthful. Rather than have them get "a strong urge" to do something, have them continually encounter an ally who is there to help them out and seems to always know what to say to get them to do what they want. Said ally could either be a figment of their imagination controlled remotely by the mind flayers or a mind flayer agent.
Another way of playing it out is to have the PC's encounter imaginary obstacles when they seek to go outside the railroad. So, if they want to go east when the plot wants them to go west, they find their way blocked by a ruined bridge.
Now, this only works if you give them the chance to realize that they are being railroaded and then the opportunity to rebel. Maybe they encounter people that crossed the allegedly ruined bridge, or maybe they realize that it is impossible for the NPC ally to travel so fast. The hardest part of this is convincing them that you are setting this up on purpose and not just being a lazy railroading DM.
First off I like the idea and good luck to your campaign. If you decide to go with the post brain washing idea it might be a god idea to include a small contingency, namely the mindflayers give psionic programming against them killing one another. I say this because if they are in a group with spellcasters then one of the fighter types might try to kill one of the mages just to see if that will put an end to that annoying urge to travel to strane places and do strange things.
But It sounds like you have a mature group that might take pains to justify not killing party members to keep the game running smoothly.
I think the major point (about railroading) has been made. Instead of doing it in game, make it part of the game setup. (That way, they don't have to play through the part you've already pre-determined-- if they don't get to make choices, skip to the part where they do.)
Yeah, that sums it up pretty well.
So tell them that their characters begin with an idea, implanted by the Mind Flayers, that they're to blot out the Sun by recruiting allies and the like. (Also: how are you going to enforce them to go with the plan in real life? How deep a compulsion is it, and how much can they sidetrack before the reins are pulled taut? Would it work as well if they had an NPC Mindflayer "ally" who traveled with the party and "encouraged" them to act on the Elder Brain's behalf? That way they can plan and negotiate-- interact with the plan and choose to struggle or make it their own.)
Well, they don´t need to know more than that they have this urge to conquer the surface world. If I have them dominated, they will be able to do other things, as a minion without his own free will is useless in such an endeavour, but it will be constantly be in their minds and urging them on. Surely, they won´t be accompanied by a mind flayer - the mind flayers probably use some implants (perhaps some specialized mind flayer tadpole - like in Matrix) to keep track of them. If that thing lodges in their brain, it gets really nasty...
Try to make sure that they have real choices to make along the way. Your idea of the tiefling blood being Iuz's allows a "switching sides" offer to be made.Good luck!
Yeah, switching sides is a nice idea - especially as I will probably have on LE, one NE and one CE character - that will have some impact on them...
Thanks !
Stefan
What if the pc's didnt know they were fulfilling the plans of their illithid masters?
maybe they are doing their regularly scheduled adventuring and "happen" upon an enterence to the surface world- with a small village ripe for the picking not far off- a few days later- after discovering the sun...and destroying another village, they decide that the surface is ripe to be plundered ( 5 guys vs a tiny village) and opt to raise an army...but that pesky sun is sooooo annoying!
a very nice idea about the PCs being captured by the mind flayers and bullied into submission
Yeah, but isn´t this railroading as well ? If you have the choice of being killed or working for the bad guy, it´s not much of a choice, I think.
And I have to say, I like the idea with the PCs not knowing what is going on better.Sorry, Scydrex, but I think I will use a different approach. Nevertheless, thank you for your comment.
Stefan
I´ll try to answer several of your comments in one post.
d13, the idea of the mind flayers being the reason why the PCs are outcasts is great. I had worked out a reason for the drow (not too difficult, a drow/tiefling priestess of Vhaeraun begs to be ostracized), but the MFs being the reason behind it should work nicely. And as the other characters aren´t written yet, it should be even easier. So the poor svirfneblin happens to be declared traitor ? Too bad... He has to be evil to fit into the party, that´s what makes him special. And the duergar/halfelemental is obviously special.
And I´ll try to keep you informed on what is happening, as time allows.
Myxx, yes, they will probably be self-motivated, but that would be too simple for my tastes. Evil always has grand schemes to subdue everyone :-) And I´ll watch out for too much infighting, but I don´t worry much.
Sebastian, playing with the PCs minds is a good idea and works nicely with d13s idea. It demands some work and careful planning to do, but I´ll keep it in mind.
Sexi Golem 01, my players are well behaved (I know them for about 8 years), so I think there is not much danger of them killing each other. But the MFs would be quite unwilling to lose prescious minions, so this contingency is probably logical. (Hmm, with their LE alignment and genius Intelligence, I start to imagine MFs as "evil Spocks" or evil Mentats - let´s see how to put this into play...)
J Paslawski: Nice idea. If they don´t have grasped that they are controlled by the time they reach the surface, it might work.
Thank you all for your willingness to comment and thus help me!
Once again, these messageboards are a great community.
Stefan
Mind Flayers are super intelligent, insidious creatures. Seeing as you haven't hammered out each PCs initial motivations for adventuring, you could easily make the Illithid the puppet masters. You said each PC would be an outcast of some sort. Perhaps the Illithid were somehow responsible for this. Maybe one of the PCs is sent away from his homeland on a quest by an elder or family member - later on the PC finds out that the elder had been motivated by Illithid the whole time. Or the Illithid had psionically motivated a leader from the PCs community to banish them. Having the mind flayers play a more indirect (yet still substantial) role in getting the campaign started would feel a lot less like railroading than the straight up "brainwashing the PCs" idea. In addition, it makes for memorable and possibly creepy moments ahead when the PCs discover the truth. Or as much of the truth as the Illithid know. . .
If you went this route, I think it would be a good idea to have concrete reasons why the mind flayers chose each specific PC for their plot. Mind Flayers are smart enough to have picked them for a reason. What is it about these characters that makes them suited as a unit to help cover the world in darkness?
and please post this as a campaign journal, I've run an evil campaign (sadly not nearly as frequently anymore) since about '97 and I am always curious to hear how other people do it.
Continuing on this...
How is it that such strange beings all come to work together? A half-elemental duergar? A female drow tiefling priestess in a male-dominated cult? The svirfneblin working with both?
The answer lies in a much deeper involvement of the illithids. They made the party. Literally. Masters of perverse experimentations, the illithids created their own "messiahs," engineering them and placing them within their own societies, knowing full well that some day, the party would feel compelled to leave their various lands. The illithids were the architects behind their alienation, their powers, their "chance" meeting, and their destinies, and the party doesn't have to know anything about it for a long, long time.
Perhaps the first quests are secretly bringing about circumstances that will facilitate the party's dark actions in days to come, though they don't realize it even as they do it. Or perhaps they aren't the only ones created by the illithids, and this group is being tested to see if they measure up. If they do, then perhaps they have to hunt down the other spawn, to eliminate possible liabilities in the future.
Oooh, great ideas, everyone!
Continuing on this...
How is it that such strange beings all come to work together? A half-elemental duergar? A female drow tiefling priestess in a male-dominated cult? The svirfneblin working with both?
The answer lies in a much deeper involvement of the illithids. They made the party. Literally. Masters of perverse experimentations, the illithids created their own "messiahs," engineering them and placing them within their own societies, knowing full well that some day, the party would feel compelled to leave their various lands. The illithids were the architects behind their alienation, their powers, their "chance" meeting, and their destinies, and the party doesn't have to know anything about it for a long, long time.
Perhaps the first quests are secretly bringing about circumstances that will facilitate the party's dark actions in days to come, though they don't realize it even as they do it. Or perhaps they aren't the only ones created by the illithids, and this group is being tested to see if they measure up. If they do, then perhaps they have to hunt down the other spawn, to eliminate possible liabilities in the future.
Oooh, great ideas, everyone!
Hmm... I see the MFs having created the half-elemental easily, but the Tiefling ? It seems that the involvement of extraplanar forces will be greater than anticipated. Perhaps the tiefling is not engineered by the MFs, but was indeed the sign they had been looking for, and setting their machinery in motion.
I just imagine having some cryptic revelation about three unlikely creatures working together somewhere in MF history - this may all be a fake engineered by Asmodeus, of course.The idea is compelling, Saern, but not yet running smoothly...
Stefan
So, I picked up some of Saerns ideas.
The Svirfneblin is a gemcutter by trade, and his family kept him from becoming an alchemist, as it was family tradition to be gemcutters. This did not sit well with him, and he embezzled clan funds from gem cutting to finance his alchemy for a long time. One day, this was found out, and the clan council judged him to be unfit to be part of the community any longer, as he had shown a severe disregard for the community over a long time, and the survival of the svirfneblin depends very much on the community. So, he has been ostracized and permanently exiled. All this, starting with his tendencies towards alchemy rather then gemcutting to the council decision is engineered by the MFs, very subtly, who are playing mind games with the unsuspecting gnomes.
I´m not done with the Duergar/Half-elemental, but perhaps I´ll play along the lines that he returned from his Lonely Year (from MGP´s Slayers Guide to Duergar, basically they have to survive a year alone in the underdark to prove their worth and be considered adult.) changed without noticing or knowing it (the MFs have captured him, added the template and clearing his mind about the fact). Upon return, the Duergar noticed he was changed, and realizing that it was something "earthen", they probably revered him as some kind of holy warrior. On one attack against Svirfneblin, he could not bring himself to attack them (going back to 2nd Ed. where it is stated that earth elemental creatures are 90% unlikely to attack Svirfneblin), his elemental side getting the better of him. (Of course, augmented by the MFs mental modifications - something like a geas or the like). So, he fell from revered holy warrior to reviled traitor and was cast out. But I´ve not cleared that with the player yet.
The Drow are easy: Her family shows signs of demonic influence (remember the Tiefling part?), so it was easy for the MFs to convince the other families to get rid of this "aberrations". She was not partial to the spider faith anyway, so she fled from the city, not before securing a chain mail and some other gear.
Stefan
The MFs don´t want to show their hands early, so they hired a middleman to "collect" the characters crucial to their plans. I´m thinking about using Blackthorn from the Slavers series (an Ogre Mage) as a newly established slave trader in the Underdark. (He escaped the PCs in my previous campaign, and as the three players played in that campaign as well, they might just recognize him).
He is backed by the MFs, of course. Otherwise, he could not have established himself as quick. He knows that his backers are MFs, and that they are up to something. He even uses one of their slave races, grimlocks, as his muscles and "Rat catchers".
I´m looking for intelligent and dextrous (read: stealthy) lieutenants between the grimlocks and the ogre mage, perhaps spriggans, but they might be too chaotic. Any ideas ?
Anyway, Blackthorn tries to catch the PCs, which might prove diffcult and costly. (I will have to devise slave-catching tactics viable for the various races in the Underdark.) Or I just might set this up from the start, probably the better approach, as they have to be caught in the end anyway.
He then offers them to work for him, the alternative would be slavery. I´d guess they take the offer.
(there were to be four special creatures in each team, but one just didn´t make it - even the best plans go haywire from time to time.)
Blackthorn has the order to form four teams. (MFs are always shown to have four tentacles, so the number four has significance for them)The members of each team will be recruited from the various underdark races - Derro, Kuo-toa, Grimlocks, Troglodytes come to my mind. Other ideas ? They should be basically humanoid in shape. It could even be a team formed of the classic humanoids - Orc, Goblin and so on.
The MFs fully expect some of the teams or single members to fail. In the end, only four of the sixteen candidates should prevail, with or without the MFs intervention. (Something like Star Search - I think that what it´s called in the US :-)))
Thats it for the moment. Any comments ?
Stefan
Hmm... I see the MFs having created the half-elemental easily, but the Tiefling ?
Stefan
Outsider is easy - the direct injection of demonic blood - the demon may even have given it up willingly (knowing how it was going to be used) or the replacement of a hand, eye, heart, whatever of demonic origin the introduction of which transforms the individual.
The process could be a nasty or inconsequential as a you like.
The character may embrace the blood (or part) or deny it.
The process could cause pain or be very clinical.
Alternately the Mindfalyer might keep a "Stable of Brood Mares" to create minions and/or conduct experiments demonic blood could be added (or a ritual preformed) at any point dury the gestation, or during infancy - it could take many treatments or one. Could result in special abilties or none, special appetites, special loyalties, the possibilities are too numerous to post.
Hell for that matter the PC could of been exposed to the fumes of a vent that opens up into hell - a strange mist that wracks the characters body and mind changing them forever (adding whatever template fits your game).
Or it could the addition of a permanent potion.
The kiss of particularly unique succubus.
A recessive bloodline.
A posession attempt by a weakened demon that went wrong destroying the demon but leaving the trace of his power on the character.
Lots of excuses to make the character the way that you want - just pick a story that works for thhe world and scenario you are trying to create.
By now, I will have a Mind Flayer community whose Elder Brain is steered by Asmodeus in setting up a competition of four teams of four individuals each. The best four are planned to lead an invasion of the surface world to crush a good country. One team (that of my PCs) will consist of only three individuals, as one didn´t make it through the setup (Every teammember is ostracized from his community due to Mind Flayer influence.)
The three PCs are caught (pre-game setup) by the minions of Blackthorn, an Ogre Mage slaver (from the Slavers series). He offers them either slavery at the hands of Mind Flayers, or the chance to work for him. Of course, he is only a minion of the Mind Flayers, but does not know what they have planned.
His first task for the players is a search mission, as one of his slave-catcher teams has gone missing. The PCs will encounter Meenlocks and perhaps a Grell there, and the task to weed them out will probably test their skills to the limit. Of course, he knowingly sent his minions to their deaths at the claws of the meenlocks (it were easily replaced Grimlocks anyway) to test the PCs capabilities.
What do you think ?
Stefan