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I love gray areas. In the DMG 3.5 on page 213 under the paragraph titled "Size and Magical Items" it states "most of the time size should'nt be an issue." This is due to the item resizing itself to the character. Unfortunatly it only states magical garments, armor, and jewlry. The question is, Does the resizing work the same way for weapons? If a +2 lonsword is found and the gnome barbarian wishes to wield it, does it resize to small for that weilder? Any help would be appreciated, Thanks.
I love gray areas. In the DMG 3.5 on page 213 under the paragraph titled "Size and Magical Items" it states "most of the time size should'nt be an issue." This is due to the item resizing itself to the character. Unfortunatly it only states magical garments, armor, and jewlry. The question is, Does the resizing work the same way for weapons? If a +2 lonsword is found and the gnome barbarian wishes to wield it, does it resize to small for that weilder? Any help would be appreciated, Thanks.
What if the gnome wants to wield it as a greatsword? Does the sword automatically resize to be a longsword of relative proportion to its new bearer or can the gnome tell it to remain at its current size? I don't know any of these things.
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I love gray areas. In the DMG 3.5 on page 213 under the paragraph titled "Size and Magical Items" it states "most of the time size should'nt be an issue." This is due to the item resizing itself to the character. Unfortunatly it only states magical garments, armor, and jewlry. The question is, Does the resizing work the same way for weapons? If a +2 lonsword is found and the gnome barbarian wishes to wield it, does it resize to small for that weilder? Any help would be appreciated, Thanks.
Since it is not specifically referenced in the DMG, I have always stood by the idea that weapons DO NOT resize themselves. A +2 longsword would be used as a +2 small greatsword for a gnome. The reason for this decision is common sense. If someone enchanted a garment to be worn by anyone who happened to come across it, it would need to resize to their shape and build in order for it to be functional. A sword is a sword, however, and anyone can grab the hilt and use it. It doesn't need to mold to your hand or any such nonsense. I usually declare that garments will only resize themselves to accomodate creatures of the same size category that it was designed for. I interpret 'resizing' to mean 'adjusts to fit' for things like armor and robes. An elven fighter with 14 strength and 18 dexterity is going to have a much more slender frame than the half-orc fighter with 18 strength and 10 dexterity. The +1 full plate needs to be able to accomodate both equally, but the creator probably did not intend the item to be worn by gnomes or halflings.
If you want an explaination from a rules-lawyering point of view, here it goes:
In the PHB and DMG, the parts about crafting magical items state that the XP required to create an item is a certain portion of its market value. If you look in the section about armors in the PHB, it states that armors for Small creatures weigh less and COST LESS than the ones listed for Medium creatures. This makes sense, since there is far less material being used to create it, it should not cost as much to make. If all magical armor resizes to fit ANYTHING that wears it, though, why not save some GP and XP and just make DIMINUTIVE +5 full plate and hand it to your half-ogre companion?!? You see my point?
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If you want an explaination from a rules-lawyering point of view, here it goes:
In the PHB and DMG, the parts about crafting magical items state that the XP required to create an item is a certain portion of its market value. If you look in the section about armors in the PHB, it states that armors for Small creatures weigh less and COST LESS than the ones listed for Medium creatures. This makes sense, since there is far less material being used to create it, it should not cost as much to make. If all magical armor resizes to fit ANYTHING that wears it, though, why not save some GP and XP and just make DIMINUTIVE +5 full plate and hand it to your half-ogre companion?!? You see my point?
I see your point, however, there shouldn't be any additional/less XP cost involved -- just a minor gp cost.
We had always played that magic armor sizes to the wearer and magic weapons do not. I don't know if there is an official rule one way or the other.
For what it's worth -- there is a special ability for weapons called "Sizing" found in the Underdark book from Forgotten Realms. This ability allows an item to change size to suit its user. The way I see it, why have the special ability if it re-sizes anyway?
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I see your point, however, there shouldn't be any additional/less XP cost involved -- just a minor gp cost.
I don't have my books in front of me, so I might be a bit off on this, but let's test my memory here and see if I can explain this a little better.
If my memory serves me correctly, the XP cost for crafting a magical item is 1/25th of its market value. Full plate armor is 1000gp. If it is made for a Small creature, I believe it is 3/4 of this cost. Therefore, it would be 750gp for Small full plate. If you want to make a suit of +1 full plate for a Medium creature, it is 1000gp for the armor (+100gp for masterwork, if I remember) and 1000gp for the enchantment, making its market value 2100gp. 1/25th of 2100gp would be 84 xp needed. If you made it from Small full plate instead, it would be 750gp + 100gp + 1000gp which is 1850gp and that translates to 74 xp needed. If the armor would resize itself to Medium anyway, you could save 10 xp by making it Small to start with. This saving becomes exponentially larger the smaller you make the armor initially, so you can see why the 'auto-resizing' feature can be heinously abused by crafty players. For this reason, I do not allow armors to size to different size categories, simply different body types of the same category.
That said, other DMs are certainly more than welcome to allow armors to resize freely. I'm just warning you about the potential for abuse that this system would have. :)
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If you want an explaination from a rules-lawyering point of view, here it goes:
In the PHB and DMG, the parts about crafting magical items state that the XP required to create an item is a certain portion of its market value. If you look in the section about armors in the PHB, it states that armors for Small creatures weigh less and COST LESS than the ones listed for Medium creatures. This makes sense, since there is far less material being used to create it, it should not cost as much to make. If all magical armor resizes to fit ANYTHING that wears it, though, why not save some GP and XP and just make DIMINUTIVE +5 full plate and hand it to your half-ogre companion?!? You see my point?
I see your point, however, there shouldn't be any additional/less XP cost involved -- just a minor gp cost.
We had always played that magic armor sizes to the wearer and magic weapons do not. I don't know if there is an official rule one way or the other.
For what it's worth -- there is a special ability for weapons called "Sizing" found in the Underdark book from Forgotten Realms. This ability allows an item to change size to suit its user. The way I see it, why have the special ability if it re-sizes anyway?
I see where your coming from, however; The DMG specifically states that the rule exists so as to not penalize characters for playing small or unusually sized characters. Unfortunatly a great many creatures do not fit the small category, unless your players are wiping out a villiage of halflings. I was hoping someone from WOTC or a bit more "sagely" than I would chime in on this....
After some consideration, I'd say that resizing was not intended to apply to weaponry. If the game designers intended this, there would surely be a note somewhere about how long it takes an item to resize--or whatever type of action it takes. There are plenty of situations where it would be great to have your weapon smaller or larger--if I had a dime for every time my characters were stuck in a grapple with nothing but a longsword! The game designers wanted these situations to be serious hindrances, not just an opportunity for Regdar to command his longsword into a shortsword that he can hack at a grappler with. But there isn't such a note because the designers no doubt understood that armor, garments and jewelry would only need to resize once per character--and really, how often is it important to know exactly how long this takes? Also, the Sizing special ability is a great point.
As to armor resizing to fit different size categories, I definately allow it. Armor for Tiny or smaller creatures are listed as costing 1/2 normal in PHB, but if a player ever tried to abuse that I'd just tell them that 'standard race blacksmiths can't make smaller armor because the parts are too tiny. good luck finding a pixie blacksmith!' Besides, size-related values and mods are always bogus--these included. If cost multiples for armor size were really a reflection of the amount of materials used, why doesn't Small armor cost less? I take the cost modifiers to be more a reflection of availability, and I just ignore the 1/2 price for Tiny and smaller armors--actually they should cost more than regular!
Besides, size-related values and mods are always bogus--these included. If cost multiples for armor size were really a reflection of the amount of materials used, why doesn't Small armor cost less? I take the cost modifiers to be more a reflection of availability, and I just ignore the 1/2 price for Tiny and smaller armors--actually they should cost more than regular!
For the most part I agree with your conclusions, Tequila Sunrise. However, I think the reason armor for small characters costs 3/4 of medium armor price (vice 1/4, which would be about the amount it would be if the cost of raw materials was the only factor in pricing) is that the amount of labor needed for most types of armor is nearly as much for a small suit as for a medium suit--I think it probably takes almost as much time to make the joints in gnome-sized armor as it does in human-sized armor. (The exceptions would be studded leather and various types of mail (chain, scale, ring), in which most of the labor goes into forging the metal links or scales and attaching them to each other or the leather backing.)
Perhaps there is an SCA member out there who can enlighten us more on this?
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If my memory serves me correctly, the XP cost for crafting a magical item is 1/25th of its market value. Full plate armor is 1000gp. If it is made for a Small creature, I believe it is 3/4 of this cost. Therefore, it would be 750gp for Small full plate. If you want to make a suit of +1 full plate for a Medium creature, it is 1000gp for the armor (+100gp for masterwork, if I remember) and 1000gp for the enchantment, making its market value 2100gp. 1/25th of 2100gp would be 84 xp needed. If you made it from Small full plate instead, it would be 750gp + 100gp + 1000gp which is 1850gp and that translates to 74 xp needed.
Unfortunately, your memory isn't serving you correctly. (Bad memory, bad!) The cost of the armor doesn't affect the gp or XP cost of enhancement. So Medium full plate +1 costs 2150 gp (1500 gp for full plate + 150 gp for masterwork + 500 gp for half of enhancement base price) and 40 XP (1/25 of enhancement base price) to create. Small armor costs the same. Tiny or smaller full plate +1 costs 1400 gp (half of 1500 gp for full plate + 150 gp for masterwork + 500 gp for half of enhancement base price) and 40 XP (1/25 of enhancement base price) to create, but the armor bonus is halved from +8 to +4. So I don't really see a problem, except that giants get to buy relatively cheap magical armor. (For example, Large full plate costs 3000 gp, but resizable Medium full plate +1 costs only 2650 gp at the local magic shoppe!)
Perhaps there is an SCA member out there who can enlighten us more on this?
I would have to say because the non-Medium-sized armor is custom made. If you think about it, an armorsmith is generally used to or has been trained to make armor a particular size. Anything out of the norm for them, they'll likely charge more.
What I would do, is if it's a Small armorsmith making Small armor, go with the "less material cost" route. If it's a Small armorsmith making Large or Medium armor, cough up the dough, man!
"I have been in the SCA on and off, and size only matters for material costs. If an armorer can make a suit for the bigger heavy fighters, he usually can craft a suit for the smaller fighters as well."
True, but in the SCA, "differently-sized" people range from about 4'5" to about 6'5", in most cases. You almost see more variation in size measuring side-to-side, but let's not go there. Here, though, we're talking about making a suit of plate mail for somebody who's 3' tall, or 9' tall. I have made chain mail, leather, and plate armor, and I believe I could resize my patterns properly to fit somebody that small or that large, but it would take a while and some experimentation (i.e.: more time, a little more material cost). Once the pieces are cut out, however, assembly should work the same, so articulating it wouldn't be a problem; riveting together size Tiny armor would be a royal PITA, however. Also, once I had made one suit of mail for, say a 6-year-old, or a suit of plates for Andre the Giant, I'd have the pattern forever, and subsequent suits wouldn't have more time costs (except for mail...).
My tangentially-related question: If armor and garments resize themselves, do they also grow holes for wings, or extra heads or limbs? In my last campaign, I had a 2-headed dwarf and a winged elf. The dwarf (rogue/fighter/barb) started out with MW studded leather, and just wore the same suit through 12th level. He never felt the need for magical armor. The winged elf had celestial armor commissioned for her. Should a regulation suit of celestial armor have said, "whoa, hey, wings" and sprouted a couple holes in the back?
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My tangentially-related question: If armor and garments resize themselves, do they also grow holes for wings, or extra heads or limbs? In my last campaign, I had a 2-headed dwarf and a winged elf. The dwarf (rogue/fighter/barb) started out with MW studded leather, and just wore the same suit through 12th level. He never felt the need for magical armor. The winged elf had celestial armor commissioned for her. Should a regulation suit of celestial armor have said, "whoa, hey, wings" and sprouted a couple holes in the back?
That's an interesting question, especially seeing as I have a winged elf in my party. I really wasn't expecting as much feed back as I've received, we could almost fill an entire "Sage Advice" column with the questions raised here. I want to say yes, it would resize to incorporate wings and the movement of wings. It would only make sense.
I like the idea that magic items tend to re-size to fit their wearer. Presumably it's a standard feature of all modern magic items and most of the stuff you find in dungeons. It's good because it means you can loot magic items from giants, and an Amulet of Health is always an Amulet of Health no matter who you get it from or who in the party uses it.
However, as a drawback, some items may not resize. Perhaps it's so ancient it predates the invention of automatically resizing items, or it's an artifact, or it's intelligent and refuses to shrink down just for some uppity gnome, or it's been rigged specifically not to resize to stop humans stealing it from the giants it was made for.
When it comes to weapons and armour, I still like to have them resize. It settles the issue of having to put halfling versions of weapons in treasure hoards, and of giants dropping +3 weapons you can't use, carry or find a buyer for.
I have to admit that I have never liked the idea that magic items resize to fit the wearer. I don't mind the idea that the item's creator can add re-sizing as a feature (and maybe as a minor magical item, auto-fitting magical clothing is a stellar seller).
For the sake of tradition (a la Lord of the Rings) I have less of a problem with rings resizing. Maybe that is why it takes a feat all its own to create a ring, as opposed to just using Craft Wonderous Item. You get re-sizing and the ability to use two of the same item at once.
Not getting "ready to wear" magic gear is part and parcel of getting your magic from looting others. In most cases, if the players can come up with a reasonable way of donning the item, they can get full use, if somewhat amusing imagery.(Imagine a dragon wearing a Medium-sized cloak as a scarf).
In the past, I have had great adventures where the party had to go find a buyer for a differently-sized magic item. I can also see adventures where the party searches out a magic item crafter that can make alterations, if such alterations seem possible (i.e. you could cut a suit of Medium-sized half-plate to Small, but you might have to do a lot more work to do the reverse).
Of course, they can always go find some arcane caster and try to get him or her to cast <polymorph any object>. Changing Medium-sized chainmail +3 to Small-sized chainmail +3 would fall into the categoary "permanent alteration." (Though I guess, it would be able to be dispelled...)
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Just to double check but rings and garments (wonderous items) resize and Weapons and Armor do not resize as per the DMG.
If you have a small PC in the group don't worry about resizing. Throw a bad guy that's small in the bunch semi-frequently that has gear your PC will use. It not only grants that PC appropriate treasure but re-enforces the idea that there are small sized creatures in the world.
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Just to double check but rings and garments (wonderous items) resize and Weapons and Armor do not resize as per the DMG.
If you have a small PC in the group don't worry about resizing. Throw a bad guy that's small in the bunch semi-frequently that has gear your PC will use. It not only grants that PC appropriate treasure but re-enforces the idea that there are small sized creatures in the world.
The only problem I have with throwing small creatures with magic items into the fray regularly is two fold. 1. If its only one or two small bad guys then it appears as though your catering to your small characters. Too many small critters and the rest of the party feels left out. Not enough and the small characters feel left out. It's hard to find the right balance, especially if you only have one small PC. That one spoiler looks at the hordes of medium sized weapons and armor and starts to feel as though they should'nt play a small creature anymore. It's easier in my opinion if some weapons and armor resize themselves to the wielder. I'm not really sure why the even bothered with the size thing at all. What was wrong with the halfling using a short sword as a longsword, or the longsword as a greatsword even. Seems to me that the whole sizing issue would have resolved itself if WOTC had left well enough alone.
My theory is that it's because they wanted Large creatures to have weapons larger than what Medium creatures could comfortably handle, so they included the Large greatclub, large greataxe, etc. Having opened the can of worms, given the opportunity in 3.5 to close it up again and say, "magic weapons resize the first time you use them to be whatever you want them to be", instead they opened up a bunch more so they could have a buffet. Then again, that solution doesn't work for non-magical weapons. A frost giant armed with a medium-sized axe is going to look pretty silly.
I recall one of the Dragon staff saying that amulets of natural armour now stack with real natural armour to ensure that the PCs can still get them from particularly monstrous opponents. In the same spirit, I like the idea that PCs can get and use weapons and armour from the same.
My lil' houserule:
I allow armor resizing within 1 size category - with some mundane craft: armorsmith skill checks. Pretty much take a "10" if you have an armorsmith and an armor shop around. In the field and you found smalll sized +1 plate? Get it to an armor shop so you can wear it you medium sized guy!
I did this because of my SCA experience as a heavy fighter and having been through His Grace Duke Steingrim's armor shop. With an averaged equipped shop one may adjust armor enough to not lower it's protective value yet still have it fit. We called it "cludgy... yet usefull".
Mainly, I did this to keep the game moving along. Most the time, the PCs would just liquidate treasure though and we'd play it out quick and fast.
Also, as Colin Mac. stated above, if you have the patterns - you have a lifetime of armor to be made. Patterns are a key tool (and sometimes a secret of) the armorsmith.
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My lil' houserule:
I allow armor resizing within 1 size category - with some mundane craft: armorsmith skill checks. Pretty much take a "10" if you have an armorsmith and an armor shop around. In the field and you found smalll sized +1 plate? Get it to an armor shop so you can wear it you medium sized guy!
I did this because of my SCA experience as a heavy fighter and having been through His Grace Duke Steingrim's armor shop. With an averaged equipped shop one may adjust armor enough to not lower it's protective value yet still have it fit. We called it "cludgy... yet usefull".
Mainly, I did this to keep the game moving along. Most the time, the PCs would just liquidate treasure though and we'd play it out quick and fast.
Also, as Colin Mac. stated above, if you have the patterns - you have a lifetime of armor to be made. Patterns are a key tool (and sometimes a secret of) the armorsmith.
I could see that, but why not with metal weapons? Having looked through my massive collection of swords and knives, it would be possible to make them usable by smaller creatures. A good example is the movie "The Thirteenth Warrior," where Antonio Banderas' character grinds down his greatsword into a smaller weapon for his use.
Dotting for reference.