Given this topic unintentionally thread-jacked another thread on the absence of Iuz in the AoW, I thought I would continue the discussion about the role of PCs vs. gods and high level NPCs in the AoW… if only to clarify some aspects of the Greyhawk setting, for those who might like that clarification. Takasi in particular had raised some questions in the Iuz thread that I thought worth answering.
Hi Takasi. No, I don't believe that Kyuss is bound by the Pact of Non-Intervention because his home plane is Oerth/the Prime Material (I could be mistaken here, I'm at work and don't have my AoW stuff handy), as it is for Iuz (and Vecna). In the past, St. Cuthbert has occasionally come to Oerth to confront Iuz (see the Temple of Elemental Evil), but he apparently was put back in his place after that... St. Cuthbert was nowhere to be seen during the Greyhawk Wars and their aftermath, which saw armies of fiends arise in the lands of Iuz.Again, this fact is not being addressed. If the conflict does not warrant intervention or even an all out war of the gods then is it really the end of the world as the campaign suggests?
In any where where there is past precedent for divine intervention and deus ex machina or something that prevents mass destruction and a rapid transformation of the world then it's much more difficult to center a campaign around the premise of a small band of heroes saving the world from utter chaos. Can you agree that it's easier to do this when there has never been a precedent of gods walking the earth and intervening? You can say that gods do not intervene very often in Greyhawk, but can you agree that the more influence the gods have over preventing apocalypse, the harder it is to do a 1-20 lvl campaign to "save the entire planet"?
Yes, I can agree that the more influence the gods have over preventing an apocalypse, the harder it is to do a 1-20 level “save the world” campaign. We also both agreed in the other thread that “save the world” campaigns are less than ideal. That having been said, the only time I have ever seen a real deus ex machine problem in Greyhawk was in the adventure “Vecna Lives!,” which was written before info concerning the Pact of Non-Intervention was published in the “From the Ashes” boxed set. The Pact of Non-Intervention ensures that there will be no deus ex machina in the Greyhawk Age of Worms—it is entirely up to the heroes to succeed in the quest.
Does the existence of this Pact and the fact that the gods are not willing to break it indicate that the AoW is not really bringing about the end of the world? No, I don’t think so. Did we see “God” and “Satan” lead their chosen armies on the battlefield during WWII? No, but I’m sure that many who lived the war must have thought the end of the world was coming. The gods have simply agreed that the fate of the world would be determined by their mortal or otherwise Oerth-bound champions, the PCs being (whether they realize it or not) the champions of the good gods, whether directly or indirectly. While many people on Earth are religious and deeply believe in God and the devil, it seems to me that humans have acted on behalf of (or in the name of) the greater powers they believe in. I’m not a particularly religious person, but my guess is that if God truly were mortified by the existence of homosexuality or “infidels,” then He would smite them himself. Yet He doesn’t—humans oppose them in His name and on His behalf, and they also initiate full-blown wars, supposedly in His name and with His blessings. The same goes for the gods of Greyhawk—their names are invoked, but mortals do the deeds. And like WWII, the events leading up to the AoW were initiated by mortals, and will be resolved by mortals.It seems like a necessity to explain why the gods wouldn't intervene. If Oerth is the primary source for their power (worshippers) then they would have a vested interest in it. If the gods have no interest in the world, and the players eventually wish to become gods or pattern their behavior after the gods, then why should the PCs care? When the incarnate beings of goodness and mercy do nothing to save millions of innocents, is it really that "good" to save them at all?
As for the millions of Oerths... remember that this is not stated anyhwere in canon, it's my own personal hypothesis (but one that I borrowed from others).
I disagree, I don’t see a need to explain the gods’ lack of intervention at all. I don’t presume to comprehend the thought processes of an immortal being with 30+ Intelligence. Doing so also would remove some of their mystique from the campaign world. Even high level clerics should not be privy to more than the occasional cryptic clue/vision from their god… I don’t think mortals (even high level clerics) are necessarily aware of the pact of non-intervention among the gods. If the PCs think the gods have no interest in the world and they themselves are striving to become gods, then I think that opens up great opportunities to explore moral dilemmas in the game, which could lead to great role playing and character development. I shouldn’t need to provide you with hooks, since I presume that you are a creative fellow, but perhaps the PCs (who might not be aware of the Pact) might want to become gods precisely because they are unsatisfied with the way they perceive the gods have not been doing their duties. The possibilities are limited only by your imagination.
The gods of Greyhawk do depend to a certain extent on their followers for their power, but are not completely dependent upon them (see 3e Deities and Demigods, p. 13).
As for why beings of “incarnate goodness” do nothing to save millions of innocents, I’ll refer you back to the Pact. Mortals are responsible for their own destiny. Where was God during WWII? Where was God during 9/11? Where is God, considering the range of atrocities we’ve seen on Earth across centuries and millennia? Humans fight the war between good and evil on Earth, as mortals do in Greyhawk (again, keep in mind that I am NOT religious).
Yes. If there was only one world then it's much more important to save it then if there are a million of them. The journey in Lord of the Rings would not have been as epic if Frodo and Samwise could just plane shift to another shire if Sauron destroyed Middle Earth.
But does that lessen the importance of the player's quest?
But we live in a world where we can't meet the gods or plane shift to another world. In D&D you can define whether these things exist or not and the characters can KNOW if these things exist or not. Why allow them to exist in the first place? How does it benefit this adventure path?
Think about it... You could very well be living on one of a million alternate Earths, without being aware that other alternate Earths exist... to the people who live on a particular world, that world is all they have, it's all they know...
Okay, perhaps it was my mistake to introduce Michael Moorcock’s multiverse into this discussion, it’s only confusing matters and taking us on ever wider tangents. My guess is that in most campaigns (and certainly in my own), the vast majority of the population believes in gods and demons/devils, but very few (save for the rare magic-user, cleric or sage) has any specific knowledge of other planes or alternate worlds. The only world they know is their own, and therefore it is worth saving. Very few people have ever heard of “plane shifting”… and how easy/realistic would it be to plane shift entire villages, countries, continents into an “alternate world”? And doing so would have its own complications (e.g., the folks on the other world might not take too kindly to a sudden invasion of plane shifters). Many (if not most) people on Earth feel deeply rooted in a particular place, and they will do whatever they can to save that place… I don’t think things would be any different for the average person in Greyhawk.
And yes, you as a DM determine whether gods exist in your campaign. And many people on Earth are as convinced that God, Allah, or Vishnu exists, as someone in Greyhawk believes that Heironeous exists, and will claim to have seen proof that the higher power they believe in exists. What’s the difference? The presence of religions/gods in the adventure path provide colour, as well as motivation for some characters… much as religions do in the real world.
If I knew I could travel to other worlds then there is an element of escape. This decreases the amount of tension and importance in the story.
If our Earth faced the apocalypse, would you not do what is necessary to save it (if only for the sake of your loved ones)? Who cares about the other millions of Earths, you're living on this one!
Again, my mistake to have brought in the concept of the multiverse. Let’s leave that aside, shall we? There in only one Oerth and the gods won’t intervene… what will you do?
It isn't meta-game, it's the way the world works as defined in the campaign. They will also have doubts for why the gods would abandon them. If the campaign setting actually has multiple worlds then there's no reason why the players couldn't learn about this through planar knowledge checks.
Same goes for the PCs in an AoW campaign... they're trying to save their own world! They might not even be aware of the other, hypothetical ones. Try moving away from meta-gaming knowledge...
Again, let’s get away from the multiverse (my bad). The PCs think the gods have abandoned them? Perfect, let them role play through that… the gods abandoned Dragonlance for a while, and that campaign setting still worked out fine. PCs need not learn the truth about the underlying cosmology behind the world… they might glean aspects of it through exceptionally high Knowledge (the Planes) checks, but they need not know everything…
Now you're rewriting the campaign to fit the campaign world. Which is fine, but by default it would be easier to use the campaign as written in a world where the real drama doesn't need to be a super secret that only the players (hopefully) believe.
Perhaps the real drama is that the PCs are the only ones who take the severity of the AoW seriously (and rightly so)...
Fair enough… but every DM is expected to tailor published scenarios to the needs of his/her own campaign.
According to the core rulebooks, the guidelines for standard D&D demographics includes wizards that can scry and teleport in every large city and metropolis (and in many small cities). Basically, every population of 15K people should have one person that can do this. A metropolis will have many.
how many high level wizards/sorcerers (14+) do you see in most Greyhawk scenarios?
Actually, according to the rules of Eberron high level wizards are actually more rare. There are adjusted tables that make high level wizards harder to find than in Greyhawk. It is actually much easier to create a network of high level communication in Greyhawk than it is in Eberron. I'm not sure about Forgotten Realms though.
Do the conversion notes solve this problem in Eberron or Forgotten Realms (that's an honest question)?
What chart are you using to determine the availability of high level wizards in Greyhawk? Please remember that even though the Core rulebooks make frequent use of names from the Greyhawk setting, much that is written in the Core rulebooks is not necessarily consistent with previously published Greyhawk sources. Also, several months ago one of the then head honchos at WotC officially stated that Greyhawk no longer was considered the default world for Core D&D. The last time I saw anything written about NPC classes and levels was in the World of Greyhawk Glossography (part of the original 1983 boxed set), where it stated that “Non-Player Characters of 10th or greater level are quite uncommon except in seats of power.” In “From the Ashes,” one finds that only 7 rulers out of 50 listed are levels 20+ (only three of whom have wizard levels, 9, 13, and 15); 14 are levels 15-19 (one 19th level wizard, the next highest being 15 and 11); the remaining 29 rulers are lower than level 15 and have no arcane spellcasting ability (a few variations may appear in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, but it was easier to glean this info from the card in the FtA box). Most of the Circle of Eight are between levels 15 and 20 (exception: Mordenkainen, who is level 26, if I’m not mistaken), and Tenser is level 21. Even if one were to use the calculations proposed in the Core rulebooks, the City of Greyhawk only has a population of 69,000 or so, and many capitals have fewer than 15,000 inhabitants. It doesn’t look like we’ll have many high level arcane spell casters after all.
Given the existence of airships and lightning trains (or whatever you call them) in Eberron, I’m inclined to think that communications networks are more efficient in Eberron than in Greyhawk, where a few wizards aside, most people and messages travel by horse.
If the matter isn't as important for these NPCs then why it is important to the PCs?
Nowhere in the rules does it say that a successful DC 50 Diplomacy Check means the NPC will drop everything RIGHT NOW and join the PCs.
They would devote resources to it at the very least. And not all high level NPCs are leaders with responsibilities. Many of them, including Tenser, have the freedom to explore and fight evil, especially when that evil is supposed to supercede the more trivial matters of leadership.
Perhaps they will lend them magic, perhaps they will send an elite squad to assist the PCs, etc... but what are the odds that they would leave their kingdom or other roles and responsibilities to fight a demi-god on the frontline?
Who says the matter isn’t as important to the NPCs? They may need to prepare for it in other ways, such as by preparing the defences of their nation should Kyuss arise and a horde of undead attack their borders. Did Churchill and Eisenhower view WWII as an important event that they had to deal with? Yes. Did either of them rush over to challenge Hitler in person on German soil? Not in person, no (wouldn't they qualify as high level NPCs in our world?), and certainly not in the late '30s when the Nazis had begun to annex their neighbours (think of these pre-WWII events as "the awakening of Kyuss"). Same thing goes with the high level NPCs—they are people with responsibilities and priorities of their own, not walking alignment and stat blocks who “always do the right thing.” The Circle of Eight may be helping prepare defences behind the scenes, just in case the PCs should fail... but nothing guarantees the defences of the Circle of Eight will succeed, either.
While not all high level NPCs are leaders, I would estimate that 90% of high level NPCs in Greyhawk are. As for why Tenser might not get involved, you were given plenty of valid reasons why he would not by myself and other posters in the other thread (too old to go on the frontline, has already been killed once and fears being killed permanently, etc., etc.). Why didn’t Yoda go face Vader at the end of Empire Strikes Back? Why did Gandalf send Bilbo along with the dwarves against Smaug the Dragon in The Hobbit? The presence of high level NPCs in the setting does not take away from the players – your repeated inability to explain (or accept) why these NPCs are counting on the PCs to do the job instead of doing it themselves merely reveals your lack of imagination with regards to this particular situation.
I can appreciate the meta-game reason for limiting high level NPCs in Eberron. But does it really make sense for the PCs (and every set of PCs thereafter) to become the first wave of high level characters in Eberron? Does it make sense that evil NPCs only reach high levels as the PCs progress in levels? Does Eberron have that short a history? Greyhawk has a long history, it only makes sense that the PCs should not be the first or only high level characters around… why should the PCs be born in a vacuum? Greyhawk’s high level NPCs were affecting the world while the PCs were in their diapers… soon, they will be too old to adventure or rule, and the PCs will be ready to take their place. It’s the DM’s job to make the PC’s centre stage and to explain why the other NPCs are unavailable to help (without needing to resort on “there’s an even bigger apocalypse on the way,” or “the AoW isn’t that big a deal” type excuses). I (and my players) even like the idea that one day, they may fight side by side with Mordenkainen.
Bottom line: Greyhawk may not be your cup of tea, Takasi, and that’s fine. I’m not here to convert you or anyone else. I’m sure that Eberron, like Greyhawk and other settings, has its pros and cons. Even though I have no intention of DMing Eberron, I have nothing against that setting. But it would be nice to see you show the same kind of respect towards Greyhawk and its players, instead of relentlessly condemning it as a setting where PCs are inevitably overshadowed by NPCs and have no role of any significance to play in the world. I think a little bit more research, imagination, and open mindedness will go a long way towards addressing your concerns with regards to the setting… should you care to do so.
Please note that I have no intention of continuing to debate this “ad nauseum” or “ad infinitum.”
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In the context of divine intervention I too run a campaign where the gods give their mortal worshippers power i.e. spells and divine abilities, specifically so they can act on their behalf. If they did intervene personally all the time, and where omnipresent, why would they have clerics? Priests yes, divine spellcasters no. All the miracles they would do hands on in divine person. I never read From the Ashes though, and I have set my campaigns in GH since 3.0, odd I reached the same conclusion.
My stance is gods are like nukes, once you let the first one loose it's game over for everyone. No more Oerth, no more worshippers. Unfortunately mad gods like Kyuss and Tharizdun are imprisoned (or left imprisoned and not invited to the meetings) specifically because they would never agree to non-intervention. I liken it to a religious cold war, if the gods take to the field it's all over but in the interim they all get to have small victories through their agents.
As an aside I bought all the Eberron source books as a buy everything from WotC (same is true for FR), even though I don't use them because the seem very specialised and campaign specific and focused. Or in other words targeted at a specific market and thus not representative or useful to gamers generally. They seem inflexible, almost sounds like Takasi, (sorry, couldn't resist :)
Seriously though it may be that if Takasi's first love is Eberron (as in the first setting he ever played in), with it's low power setting in terms of NPC levels and the lack of a distinct pantheon(s), he just can't "get" GH or FR, in the same way that those of us who have played for 20 years plus just don't "get" Eberron with it's trains and airships, and constructs that aren't really constructs etc. Diferent strokes for different folks. Maybe some empathy is required, so all play nice and make your Diplomacy checks please :)
Finally, for Takasi, a wise man once told me (one of my old bosses) "It's not what you say, it's how you say it". Trying to convince us old farts to give up our beloved Greyhawk, Mystara, Ravenloft [insert beloved old/OoP campaign setting here] is like pissi...sorry urinating into a head wind. We won't do it :) We love old GH, warts and all, just as much as you love Ebby. Please stop polarising the community you naughty pixie :) You seem a bright lad, passionate, and a total Ebby freak. Nothing wrong with that, just please stop being the High Self-appointed Grand Crusader of Eberron :) Strength through diversity not exclusivity.
I imagine that the gods don't get involved out of a sense of self preservation. If the Age of Worms come to pass the gods will lose some power, but I don't believe that greyhawk gods are tied to worship the way that FR gods are. However, should the gods get involved there is the distinct possibility that by the time it is over several gods will be dead.
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Exactly. Mortal life is cheap, over abundant and expendable, regardless of how powerful some might end up becoming. Divine beings, from their point of view if I may be so presumptious as to second guess the thoughts of a divibity, are not. There are a lot of primes with poetntial worshippers on (whether your power is tied to the number and intesnity of worship or not). Better a planet is destroyed than oneself, there are other primes, there is only one of a given god.
On the flipside imagine the catastrophe on a cosmic scale. They GH pantheon descend and fight Kyuss to stop the Age of Worms because the PCs failed. He manages to kill Pelor. Now Pelor is worshipped on at least one other prime, the one Mayaheine is from. Suddenly Pelor disappears from x number of pantheons across various primes. Suddenly their is a vacuum and his portfolio is up for grabs. Just one established trans-prime god's death upon Oerik could have repurcussions across the planes, like a series of every expanding circles, spreading chaos and destruction far out of all proportion to what Kyuss could have on just one world. All this because Pelor decided to do a "good" act. Didn't Monte cook do something similar for Planescape with Orcus/Tenebrous?
By using mortals the good/lawful gods do the greatest good/order though the least harm/chaos. When gods go into battle they do not just risk themselves, their deaths can cause problems for potentially millions. Except of course none of this is real and it's all speculation about make believe :)
Only a few points, as I do not have either the time or inclination to get overly involved in this now two thread conflageration. First off, I like Greyhawk, I like Forgotten Realms (I run the most games in this setting), and I like Ebberon as well. Each has the advantage of its own feel. If I feel like playing a grittier, darker game, I tend to play/run a low magic Greyhawk game. If I want high fantasy, spell flinging and huge magical orginizations with lots of weapons and firepower, I play Forgotten Realms. Ebberon, I can not easily place, but I do like the full integration of all the rules subsets, along with prestige classes that are actually tied to the setting in a more than add on way. (And warforged and changlings are cool). The point being, all of these systems are great. Some are bound to like one over another. BIG DEAL. GET OVER IT.
Second, if my players were to seriously whine and complain over Takasi's main (as far as I can tell) point that others can do the job the PC's are trying to do, I WOULD LET THEM. Oh, you want Tensor to run over and take care of this little Kyuss problem. He says ok, grabs the Circle of Eight, they grab and destroy Dragotha's phylactory, reimprison Kyuss (or destroy him) and I narrate the whole thing for the players. Hope you guys had fun, roll up some new 1st level characters, and we will start a new game next week.
Third, the problem with the Ebberon system (and by no means does it have to mean don't play Ebberon, as I mentioned earlier, I like the system) is that if the PCs are the only high level PC classes around, what are their opponants? In order to stay true to the world, you should go back and reduce any and all NPCs with class levels to under level 5, and let your high level PC's wipe them out. That sounds like fun. Otherwise, don't complain there are too many high level characters running around.
Lastly, for now, this is a very minor point, Takasi, but Ebberon is the only setting with a whole Gnomish Dragonmark house that specializes in long range communication, remember? You think that communication will take less time in Greyhawk or the Realms? There are prices in the Ebberon Campaign setting for just this sort of communication. Every major city, and quite a few minor ones have one of these Gnomish Dragonmark enclaves with access to the transfer of information. Ebberon has newspapers for The Flames sake. Come on, at least play fair, and do not rely on your opponents lack of Ebberon knowledge to try to pry your point through.
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My main anecdote for why gods are hands off is the Iliad, and Greek mythology in general. Forgive me, again I'm scratchy on the exact details, but...
Zeus is for this guy's army. Poseidon is for that guy's army. Hera hates this guy because Zeus likes him, so she don't give Zeus any. Zeus gets bothered, turns into a owl, and goes slumming on the Prime Material for some prime material,...9 months later there's ANOTHER demigod who, of course, Hera hates.
On and on the Trojan War drags, because the gods won't leave man well enough alone to carve his own destiny.
Better man should get a bunch of green wrigglers dumped on his head than a cosmic peepeeing contest between this god that god the other god.
I think the AOW has been set up as perfectly as it can be without going overboard. If the designers had to cover every base for every campaign setting in existence, each adventure would have taken up the entire mag. It's up to individual DMs to define what role powerful NPCs, the gods, or anyone else has in their game. The only people they have to answer to is the PCs, and if the PCs ask these questions, then the DM better have an answer ready, even if it is - "the gods are beyond the ken of mortals, and their actions thoroughly inscrutable for those of lesser intellectual capacity".
the non-intervention treaty seems perfectly reasonable to me, to a point. The problem is that there are over 30 Greyhawk gods worshipped just in the Flanaess and many of them are chaotic or evil or both. I doubt that Incabulous or Erythnul really has any problem with intervening in the world despite the presence of a treaty unless there was a very real punishment for doing so. Perhaps there is. That's a matter for DMs again.
People talk about the gods not intervening in affairs that put the lives of millions of worshippers at stake. The fact is that in D&D they do this every day. That's what clerics are for. They are living extensions of their god's power. The god's representatives on the planet. Most AOW groups would include at least one cleric of a good god. As for the rest of the PCs, if they worship the gods as well, perhaps the gods are looking out for them. Every god needs tools, and that's the job of the PCs, especially if they succeed. And if they fail, who's to say that the gods haven't got something planned up their sleeves? How would the PCs know either way?
It says quite clearly in the last adventure that the AOW is not the end of the world, but merely part of a larger event affecting the entire universe/multiverse. If this is true the other gods might be away dealing with bigger events than even the AOW. Heironeous might be dealing with the machinations of a powerful horde of devils led by an avatar of Hextor intent on conquering three or four worlds (not just one). No wonder the AOW takes a back seat to this. Of course, the involvement of other gods might make the situation worse. Pelor intervenes directly, which tips the hand of Nerull, Pelor's dread enemy and Kyuss's sponsor (remember that Kyuss was a cleric of Nerull, god of death and perhaps the one being to benefit from the AOW as much as Kyuss himself).
By the way. I don't really want to get involved in the whole bonfire raging between other people on this thread. I recommend that each person do what they see fit in their own campaigns and leave everyone else's alone.
Divine intervention is the worst possible thing to happen to any kind of campaign. As soon as St. Cuthbert pops in to save the day, the focus is off the PCs completely and all kinds of questions arise: why wasn't he there earlier? If he can just pop in whenever he pleases, why would any of his followers have to suffer or die? There's always the issue of other gods, but I hate letting it get far enough that anyone even asks those questions. The gods shouldn't be a voice in the cleric's head unless that cleric is legitimately insane and that's part of who that PC is. In that regard, Tharizdun's clerics (or Daelkyr worshippers in Eberron, or Cthulu cultists in Call of Cthulu) would be the most connected to their deities, since they would be partaking directly at all times of that chosen god's affliction/gift/whatever.
The principle of faith is that one does not have concrete evidence that faith is rewarded or acknowledged. If one of my players' cleric of St. Cuthbert saw his god manifest as an avatar directly before him, he ceases to operate on faith; he becomes an employee. The uncertainty is important; even if the gods are real, there should be an element of doubt. In that way, "the will of the gods" must always be performed by mortals, with the only intervention being Planar Ally spells or holy artifacts.
The PCs must always be the stars. End of story. If divine intervention is a regular aspect of the campaign, the Dungeon Master is either trying to pull the party out of a hole he or she put them in, is trying to drive them out of the hobby, or secretly wants to be on the other side of the screen.
The principle of faith is that one does not have concrete evidence that faith is rewarded or acknowledged.
Ahem. Clerics must pray for divine spells at specific times each day. they recieve those spells. This is a lack of concrete evidence how?
The actions (or in this case, inactions) of the gods don't need to make sense...they're gods.
Ahem. Clerics must pray for divine spells at specific times each day. they recieve those spells. This is a lack of concrete evidence how?
The principle of faith is that one does not have concrete evidence that faith is rewarded or acknowledged.
I want there to not be concrete evidence for all to see; the cleric's spells are as much a function of their faith and devotion (reflected in their wisdom score and time spent in training) as they are somehow 'gifts' from their deity. Why wouldn't everyone that prays hard enough receive spells just by praying, if it was entirely due to the gods granting these spells? If I had to explain divine spellcasting in my campaign (my campaign; not necessarily the rules as written) I would prefer to say that the cleric believes that their spells are granted by their god, and for all intents and purposes there is neither evidence for or against that belief, but it isn't necessarily true. Personal faith and devotion to an ideal, reflected in the character's wisdom score, is more responsible in my mind than some inscrutable power giving out little packages of divinity. But that's a matter of personal taste.
Your way of thinking James is more in line with the Eberron campaign setting where the god's are ambivalent enigmatic entities that have never been contacted personally by their followers (the gods don't even live on Eberron's outer planes). Your way of thinking is way off for Greyhawk and FR though, so doesn't really work. The Time of Troubles in FR proved the existence of the gods and in Greyhawk the existence of Iuz, St. Cuthbert, Wastri, and Kyuss himself proves the existence of these entities.
If it were simply a matter of faith in Greyhawk or FR then alignment restrictions would be meaningless. You could be NE (like you can be in Eberron) and gain spells from having faith in your own perverted ideal of a good god like Pelor (the flames of Pelor will cleanse the world of impurity). Unfortunately Pelor would tell the faithful NE cleric to pee off and go find himself an evil god to worship by not giving him any spells.
I'd like to point out, since I don't think anyone has yet on either thread, that actually there aren't *that* many Good aligned powerful NPCs in Greyhawk; Tenser (and his gang, Agrach the high priest of Celestian for example) is one of the only notable examples - the Circle of Eight are neutral aligned, and all work towards Mordenkainen's philosophy of balance, which means that good and evil acts must both occur to keep everything ticking along smoothly if you will. The reason Tenser is no longer in the Circle is that he disagreed with Mordenkainen's views and feels he should use his great power to do good. Forgetting LG there are probably less than 5 NPCs in the Flanaess apart from the PCs with the kind of power needed to defeat Kyuss.
Your way of thinking James is more in line with the Eberron campaign setting where the god's are ambivalent enigmatic entities that have never been contacted personally by their followers (the gods don't even live on Eberron's outer planes). Your way of thinking is way off for Greyhawk and FR though, so doesn't really work. The Time of Troubles in FR proved the existence of the gods and in Greyhawk the existence of Iuz, St. Cuthbert, Wastri, and Kyuss himself proves the existence of these entities.
If it were simply a matter of faith in Greyhawk or FR then alignment restrictions would be meaningless. You could be NE (like you can be in Eberron) and gain spells from having faith in your own perverted ideal of a good god like Pelor (the flames of Pelor will cleanse the world of impurity). Unfortunately Pelor would tell the faithful NE cleric to pee off and go find himself an evil god to worship by not giving him any spells.
I admittedly know relatively little about Eberron, but if that's how they handle religion in the campaign, I think it's great. That having been said, Phil, I still think there is a great deal of room for interpetation where the relationship between gods, PCs, and alignments in Greyhawk is concerned.
IMC, I use the alignment point system described in the Green Ronin Advanced Player's Guide. "Good" clerics can make mistakes, and if they make enough of them, their alignment may gradually shift. While the prevailing wisdom would suggest that a cleric would lose his spellcasting powers if he did things that contravened the teachings of his deity, that is not so IMC. Gods are too busy to be concerned with the day-to-day behaviour of all but their mightiest clerics, so a low- or mid-level cleric who starts doing "wrong" by his faith will not automatically lose his powers. A consistent pattern of "infractions" of the cleric's moral code will cause a gradual shift in alignment, but even a "good" cleric who has turned "neutral" may not necessarily lose his spells (or, rather, he would gradually lose access to certain granted powers, spells, and spell levels rather than losing them all at once). I like the idea that clerics of "good" religions can to a certain extent "do wrong" and remain within their chosen faiths, and vice versa... as occurs in the real world.
As far as gods walking the Oerth is concerned, IMC those instances are mostly seen as myth and hearsay. Most clerics have not witnessed the gods in person, so they continue to operate on faith in the existence of those gods (many think of Iuz as a demon--after all, they've never met him, and the average mortal probably couldn't tell the difference between a demon and an evil demigod anyway).
The above may perhaps deviate from some interpretations of canon or the core rules, but the game is about interpreting things in whatever way works best for you.
Hmmm... I think I've done a thorough job of hijacking my own thread! Back to our regular program...
By the way. I don't really want to get involved in the whole bonfire raging between other people on this thread. I recommend that each person do what they see fit in their own campaigns and leave everyone else's alone.
Upon re-reading my opening post, you may be right, perhaps the tone of the last few paragraphs was slightly inflammatory. If that is how it was perceived, then I apologize, my intention was not to start a flame war. I sincerely thought the points Takasi had raised were worthy of discussion--he made alot of valid points in another thread and I was interested in seeing how other posters addressed the presence of high level NPCs in their campaigns. And I whole heartedly agree with your recommendation
That having been said, I want to thank everyone who has posted replies to this thread. I think alot of valid points and perspectives have been put forward.
My main anecdote for why gods are hands off is the Iliad, and Greek mythology in general. Forgive me, again I'm scratchy on the exact details, but...
Zeus is for this guy's army. Poseidon is for that guy's army. Hera hates this guy because Zeus likes him, so she don't give Zeus any. Zeus gets bothered, turns into a owl, and goes slumming on the Prime Material for some prime material,...9 months later there's ANOTHER demigod who, of course, Hera hates.
On and on the Trojan War drags, because the gods won't leave man well enough alone to carve his own destiny.
Better man should get a bunch of green wrigglers dumped on his head than a cosmic peepeeing contest between this god that god the other god.
I love the fact that Greek Mythology sometimes makes gods look like bumbling fools. While they may be all powerful, they are also all fallible... they are mirror images of their mortal followers, magnified 100 times! But yes, the Greek myths offer great reaons for the gods not to get directly involved on the Prime...