Awhile back I tried to start a campaign based around your typical Illumanati like conspriacy.
On the surface its older than dirt, ruling the world and to blame for several tragedies; the usual. There's Dragons, Eye Tyrants and Liches in the ranks and slave running operations.
But the kicker the power behind this "Iron Throne" (Couldn't resist) is not the said Dragons, Eye Tyrants and Liches but Imps.
That was not a typo. This conspiracy would be controlled by Imps, Mephits and Quasits. My method to this madness is these infernal "small fries" would be just as power hungry as DemoGoon or Balzebug. But since their too weak to ever take power by force they would have to be sneaky about it. The dragons, liches , etc would "think" they'd be working at least for more powerful fiends, maybe a demon king or devil.
I gotta go to work now, but please tell me what you think.
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If you haven't read it already, check out a book called "The Amulet of Samarkand" by Jonathan Stroud. It marketed as juvenile literature and part of a trilogy called "The Bartimaeus Trilogy." In this world, magic is done by imps and little genies that wizards bind to their will. The narration flips back and forth between a yound wizard and the imp he has bound. Good book, quick read, funny and you can see how a bunch of imps really could rule the world. A few pretty bas ass imps too.
Well, let's start of by saying it's definitely a cool twist. It makes sense on a certain level, too.
The problem I see with it is this. Once your players are high level and figure things out, the BBEG is going to be a CR 2 critter (assuming an imp). I mean, a 20th level PC sneezes and a CR 2 critter dies from the projectile boogers. :D
You would need to find some way to make the low CR critter a viable "boss" encounter at the end. And I don't think bodyguards will do it. The PCs want to get to the end encounter and have a killer fight with the boss and his minions. They don't want to sneeze and kill the boss.
Find a way to resolve that, and you have a very cool twist.
Find a way to resolve that, and you have a very cool twist.
Class levels seems a logical opportunity.
I like the idea, but if you give the imps class levels, their "minions" would probably detect that and no longer find the imps and quasits "below their radar" so to speak.
A way that I would resolve the power issue is to allow the quasits and imps to have constructed golem like shells that they can magic jar themselves into when they need to be better at physical combat.
Hundreds of imps working together as a team in a stronghold of their own design should present a decent challenge to a high level party, especially when traps, magical guardians, etc. are factored in.
If you give the imps class levels the whole idea just kind of loses its unique appeal--"the whole world is controlled by a bunch of 4 hit die monsters?"
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If you haven't read it already, check out a book called "The Amulet of Samarkand" by Jonathan Stroud. It marketed as juvenile literature and part of a trilogy called "The Bartimaeus Trilogy." In this world, magic is done by imps and little genies that wizards bind to their will. The narration flips back and forth between a yound wizard and the imp he has bound. Good book, quick read, funny and you can see how a bunch of imps really could rule the world. A few pretty bas ass imps too.
Read it, loved it. Read book 2 as well.
F2K hit on the biggest problem with advancing the imps - it loses out on the "wait? we've been battling a CR2 mastermind this whole damn time" factor. And I would think that'd be a big part of the appeal.
I like his idea of magic jarring themselves into some sort of construct as a solution, too.
While the idea of a global conspiracy controlled by imps, mephits and quasits is nifty, it just doesn't stack up in a large scale campaign running from 1st - 20th level (since that's what you are thinking).
The first problem you have is that imps and quasits pretty much hate each other (its the demon/devil thing). This needs to be resolved (by changing the nature of the lower planes, or the nature of the fiends themselves).
The second problem you have is that your imps have to be a challenge for PCs of all levels. Advancing them in levels is just about the only way you can advance the creatures realistically without using lots of templates, but doing this makes it more difficult for the imps and quasits to hide themselves unless they take classes that expressly help them to do this.
The third problem is that liches, dragons, and powerful demons and devils are typically so much more intelligent, wiser, stronger, and (sometimes) charismatic than imps and quasits. How is an imp supposed to dupe a Int 30 Lich, and how is a group of mephits supposed to control an ancient green dragon without its knowledge? Unless you have a realistic way of doing this the PCs are going to find it illogical in the extreme (if they are smart players).
All of these problems can be solved, but you have to be really, really well-planned and smart about it, otherwise the global conspiracy just won't be believable.
Good points Phil. It was Zherog who actually implied this would go 1-20 levels, not me(I doubt I can get that kind of commitment) but good points all the same. I'll answer Zherog's points then yours.
Zherog
First this shouldn't be an "Imp Hunt", the revelation was supposed to come right at the end & would be reflection on the absurdity of it. At the most they should end this trying to convince the world(s) of "the Truth" rather than slaughtering the "Winged Runts". & they would "Be" runts. I won't throw the magic jar idea out but I'm not planning it for the climax. Like you & F2K said levels or templates would take away the appeal.
My first Idea for a climax would be a search for the one dragon, Archfiend or whatever who knew "the Truth" while fighting off the Cabal's most powerful minions just when they are about to free/raise him.
The appeal here is the party could raise Orcus/free Levistus, he reveals "the Truth" & then abandons the Party who just realized they've brought back one of trhe greatest evils in creation to defeat "Winged Runts". Or one Minion survives just long enough to hear "the Truth", the Party then fights the Archthingy & said minion slips "away from the fight w/ Orcus/Levvie/etc". When(if) the party makes it back one of the Cabal's most powerful minions would be acting on "the Truth" and it would be the beginning of the end for said Cabal. The party may only be indirectly destroying the Cabal this way but at least they'll have a big fight at the end to brag about.
Another Idea I had is the clues I give him don't point to "What" they are but "Where" until the very end. The Party decends into the Lower Planes to storm the Sanctum, fight the "Ultimate Gaurdian" (like a Triple Diamond Rust Dragon) When they breach the Sanctum they immediately find out two things:
1. It's empty. It was the real Sanctum, just while the Party were fighting the Guardians, the "Winged Runts" were flying out the back door(sunroof). Basically their craven Impish nature overhelms the millenia of experience & they abandon ship.
2. Everything is made for little winged men. The rooms are all big b/c the guys like their space but there are perches in place of beds or chairs. The books are small even for gnomes; to say nothing of how high up the walls the bookshelves are! The battle w/ the Gaurdians is the climax and this would be where the twist comes & the party figures it out. They go in shock, they laugh, take whatever evidence & treasure they see fit, "redecorate" w/ some holy water &/or a fireball(two) and the Cabal is taken down b/c they just haven't got the energy to start over again.
Which brings us to Phill's points
1.Demon/Devil thingy: I don't see this as being an issue. I'm a Noob to D&D & while I understand the Blood War "is", my bible for Infernal D&D boyz is the BoVD & what I get from that is they spend so much time fighting amongst "themselves" I'm surpried they even have the energy to fight each other. AND Imps & Quasits have one thing to bring them together: They're getting picked on by the Big Guys! Whether you report to someone named Demogoon or BalzyBuggz, you're spending eternity w/(if you're lucky,"just") a tentacle smashing you in the face agan & again. Wouldn't the chance to smash back be worth playing w/ the other team, & what if the whole "Blood War" was engineered by the "Winged Runts" to keep the big boys distracted?
2.As I said I'm trying to find ways around fighting the Imps after the secret is revealed. I may use Kerrshazz (Critical threat from Dungeon, way back) but that would be it.
3. Obviously I'll make the "Winged Runts" smarter & wiser but how do you know they're not so smart to begin w/? Maybe all this time they just wanted you to think they're dumb so you understimate them? And despite what you think, they "DON"T" have to be the smartest guys in creation, all they have to be is just smart enough to work together to deceive the liches, dragons, whatnot and turn them against each other.
Dragon learning too much? Send the Lich after him.
Or better, "Let it slip" that Lich is the wizard from the party that nearly killed the dragon and snagged some of it's swag a couple hundred years back.
Dragon goes after Lich.
If Lich kills Dragon, Problem Solved.
If Dragon kills Lich it has now attacked one of "the Brotherhood" ("Very loose" use of term) unprovoked.
Dragon is declared traitor, its hoarde (after some taxation by the Inner Circle) goes to whoever brings Dragon to "justice"
Again, Problem Solved.
Well I'm off to bed, you'll never believe how long it took me to write all of this (I'm amazed I could do it). Good night.
Well, you might call yourself a noob to D&D, but it seems like you're planning your campaign with care and forethought and have some interesting ideas that should make it original and memorable for your players. Let us know how it turns out.
Which brings us to Phill's points
1.Demon/Devil thingy: I don't see this as being an issue. I'm a Noob to D&D & while I understand the Blood War "is", my bible for Infernal D&D boyz is the BoVD & what I get from that is they spend so much time fighting amongst "themselves" I'm surpried they even have the energy to fight each other. AND Imps & Quasits have one thing to bring them together: They're getting picked on by the Big Guys! Whether you report to someone named Demogoon or BalzyBuggz, you're spending eternity w/(if you're lucky,"just") a tentacle smashing you in the face agan & again. Wouldn't the chance to smash back be worth playing w/ the other team, & what if the whole "Blood War" was engineered by the "Winged Runts" to keep the big boys distracted?
2.As I said I'm trying to find ways around fighting the Imps after the secret is revealed. I may use Kerrshazz (Critical threat from Dungeon, way back) but that would be it.
3. Obviously I'll make the "Winged Runts" smarter & wiser but how do you know they're not so smart to begin w/? Maybe all this time they just wanted you to think they're dumb so you understimate them? And despite what you think, they "DON"T" have to be the smartest guys in creation, all they have to be is just smart enough to work together to deceive the liches, dragons, whatnot and turn them against each other.
Dragon learning too much? Send the Lich after him.
Or better, "Let it slip" that Lich is the wizard from the party that nearly killed the dragon and snagged some of it's swag a couple hundred years back.
Dragon goes after Lich.
If Lich kills Dragon, Problem Solved.
If Dragon kills Lich it has now attacked one of "the Brotherhood" ("Very loose" use of term) unprovoked.
Dragon is declared traitor, its hoarde (after some taxation by the Inner Circle) goes to whoever brings Dragon to "justice"
Again, Problem Solved.Well I'm off to bed, you'll never believe how long it took me to write all of this (I'm amazed I could do it). Good night.
Well, you seem to be able to answer most of the points I have raised. I do have two more points that might help you design a better campaign (or not) ;)
1. While getting around having to write/type up a bazillion classed imps and quasits is commendable the problem that you have is that PCs eventually like taking the fight to the real masters in control of the conspiracy and giving them a right walloping. Just look at AOW. If the PCs didn't get to face Dragotha, Lashonna, Kyuss, etc. in a fight how peeved off would they be? Like it or not, fighting monsters and killing the bad guys is one of the cornerstones of D&D. Denying players this right can be dangerous. Hopefully, the PCs in your campaign will get the opportunity to destroy the imp and quasit oligarchy by some means, even if its indirectly (such as blowing up their demiplanar headquarters or sicking some very aggravated dragons and liches who have finally discovered the truth thanks to the PCs meddling).
2. Remember that as they go up in levels PCs get acccess to lots of powerful divination magic. With this divination magic the PCs can uncover all sorts of juicy pieces of information that can blow a campaign wide open (especially one built on secrecy). You need to plan ahead for this when and if the time comes.
2. Remember that as they go up in levels PCs get acccess to lots of powerful divination magic. With this divination magic the PCs can uncover all sorts of juicy pieces of information that can blow a campaign wide open (especially one built on secrecy). You need to plan ahead for this when and if the time comes.
Well, this won't last forever if the results keep on getting confirmed, but if my PCs were thinking it was a cabal of Pit Fiends or something due to the "hints and clues" that get dropped throughout the campaign, they may not believe the initial results of the Divination.
I mean, if you have been fighting the evil plane-wide conspiracy responsible for all of civilization's woes, battled minions of the conspiracy such as Dragons, Devils, Demons and Liches... Would you believe your own experiences and "educated" guesses, or would you believe a divination result like "Imps"?
I'm inclined to believe my PC's responses to a well-planned out campaign with mis-leading hints (and playing off their meta-game knowledge as well) would be "Imps? WTF?" and then shake the crystal ball and try again.
Now how long you could string this out is another matter, but I can just imagine trying to tell other high-NPCs. "Yeah, the Legend Lore said Imps. We've been getting that result for centuries, but we know it isn't true. I mean, Imps? How would they control the world?" And then you'd have a couple of adventures of trying to capture a mastermind and expose the truth to the world.
~Grins~ I love this idea! One thing that I would do is also make more than a few of the imps be mages or the like. ~shrugs~ Hey, if PCs can do why not a being that can live for centuries or longer? I know that I would. Have a cabal of older imps who have levels in Magic-Users, Warlocks, Bards, Rogues, ect. IT would still confound the PCs.
Also, if an Imp is captured, have them say that they are working for another being of great power that shields their existance from the world! Then the PCs will really think that they are being led on a wild goose chase!
1. While getting around having to write/type up a bazillion classed imps and quasits is commendable the problem that you have is that PCs eventually like taking the fight to the real masters in control of the conspiracy and giving them a right walloping. Just look at AOW. If the PCs didn't get to face Dragotha, Lashonna, Kyuss, etc. in a fight how peeved off would they be? Like it or not, fighting monsters and killing the bad guys is one of the cornerstones of D&D. Denying players this right can be dangerous. Hopefully, the PCs in your campaign will get the opportunity to destroy the imp and quasit oligarchy by some means, even if its indirectly (such as blowing up their demiplanar headquarters or sicking some very aggrivated dragons and liches who have finally discovered the truth thanks to the PCs meddling).
2. Remember that as they go up in levels PCs get acccess to lots of powerful divination magic. With this divination magic the PCs can uncover all sorts of juicy pieces of information that can blow a campaign wide open (especially one built on secrecy). You need to plan ahead for this when and if the time comes.
1. Hmm, I thought I wrote a couple of ways to deal w/ this issue. However it does point out that maybe the option of having the PC's clues point to "Where" the Cabal is, rather than "What" or "Who" would be best. That way the PC's can have their Climatic battle w/ the guardian of the Sanctum (Would a Lycanthropic Half Fiend Tarrasque be too much to ask? Just Kidding) and then destroy the Cabal by trashing their Sanctum once they're inside.
2. Double Hmm, You know this is the one part I'm fuzzy on. Maybe it's a good thing this could take awhile. But If the Iron Throne could hide themselves I'm sure I'll find a way.
One thing that I would do is also make more than a few of the imps be mages or the like.
3. Trust me I've thought about it. I'm hoping I find a way I don't have to do this simply b/c an Imp w/ levels in Mage is no longer CR2 and having the irony of CR2 runts running the world, is really where I want to go here.
When you think about it, Who else would really need so much secrecy to control the world? Sure Tiamat or Asmoedeus would have secret hideouts for emergencies, but do you think they could be content to stay in them forever?
Listen, if your campaign is wittier and funnier than a seething barbarian's twenty level muck wade through a swamp of burgundy entrails... seemingly lowly imp overlords sound great to me.
It's the pandimensional mice device. Doug Adams applauds you from the other side.
They don't need to be personally powerful or brilliant if they have discovered some artifact that gives them powers of control over woefully dangerous creatures. Give me that device and a head wound and I could still probably find a way to get free food at the A&P. I'd be Jedi-ing free stuff all day long.
I guess I'm saying that a third grader with a gun poses the same, if not a greater threat to me than a thirty year old with a gun. The imps control, however they've acquired it, is their Ruger.
Yeah, I think sometimes we get hung up on the "final boss" idea, and we think that when the mastermind is revealed, it has to be some kind of epic battle. I picture this ending as a "Wizard of Oz" moment. "Pay no attention to the imps behind the screen."
How much of an impact would it make for the PCs to see the masterminds, look at them, and laugh? It would be a major change of pace.
When you think about it, Who else would really need so much secrecy to control the world? Sure Tiamat or Asmoedeus would have secret hideouts for emergencies, but do you think they could be content to stay in them forever? Dispater could, and Levistus would probably be used to it (Heh, heh) But almost any other Big Bad Mother would "WANT YOU TO KNOW JUST WHAT BAD MOTHERS THEY ARE!" Even the little guys would want this, they just know better than to think they can have it.
I just dragged this topic screaming from it's early grave to say I've been diggin through the Divination spells that Phill referred to and I don't think I found One I couldn't handle. Trouble is that's just from the PHB, I don't have anything like the Tome of Magic or a truckload of Dragon Magazine
I'm asking if there any divination spell or doohicky outside the PHB you think I should know about before I try this Masquerade? A brief discription of the improtant bits and where it appears would be nice.
If you really want to use the small fries, mephits would be your best bet. Their racial advancement allows for 9 HD. A cabal of such critters could be a formidable challenge.
If you don't care whether they're pure mephits, you could even up their CR by adding a template to them.