My own current campaign, set in my own world, is using a conceptual outline leading towards an 'adventure path' feel. I have left most of the adventures only loosely sketched this time, and several sections unwritten yet, modifying the campaign events to fit the growth and development of the player characters in my campaign. I always tried in the past, and this time as well, to have some idea about the 'retirement level' adventure for the campaign (This one is going to wrap up around level 20, not going to epic levels). And this time, I do have a specific idea for the conclusion of the campaign.
I'm not going to reveal too much info at this point on the off chance that any of the players in my campaign are reading these boards.
But I look at several of my past campaigns....the three full campaign Adventure Paths from Dungeon, and their endings...and I'm forced to wonder if I may have gone off-track slightly.
Demon princes, gods, fallen devas turned to demon princes.....
and i'm trying to close a campaign at 20th level with a Great Red Wyrm in a deathtrap dungeon (with a few twists, granted)...there are moments I worry that I've created the campaign equivalent of Mayberry.
Even if these guys love the journey, and even if i make it a fabulous challenge for them...I don't want the players going up to other gamers after and saying 'yeah, we retired at level 20 by taking on and taking out the Dragon of Hadrach Vale' and having the other gamer respond 'so? you fought a dragon?'
Has anyone else had any problems with wrapping up a campaign with a climactic foe that, even if an appropriate challenge, didn't quite have the 'pizazz' that you think players expect in the denouement?
Ooof...it's really really really really hard, and I have failed at this a time or two, to satisfy the players while not resorting to heavy-handed DM tactics, such as fudging die rolls in your favor really really badly or just outright giving the smackdown to the players because BBEG is your baby (figuratively speaking, o' course).
My advice to you is:
You've got a great wyrm red dragon. Very old, presumably around 800-1000 years old. This bad mofo is going to be the King of the Hill (Dungeon) and will know every crook, cranny, escape route and tactic in the area. Period. You do not get to be an old red dragon where the likelihood of being killed by one of your kind is high by being stupid.
TACTICS ARE YOUR FRIEND! Wingovers, flyby attacks, wing buffet and tail slaps aren't just for attacking players. What happens when BBRD (big bad red dragon) does a tail slap attack against that large stack of barrels? Which conveniently contain alchemist's fire? The fire don't hurt BBRD, could conceivable provide cover if there was enough of it, could be a nuisance to your party and could be fanned by the BBRD flapping his wings. Anything that doesn't catch on fire is an obstacle that has to be bypassed. Rope bridge? Wing Buffet! Flyby attack! Whittle down those pesky adventurers! A tail slap to a mortared wall could be devastating as well. Tail slaps to a pile of coin could provide a handy "smoke" screen (not to mention shrapnel) while BBRD preps something. Adventurers decide to pull a disappearing trick? Well, that's what discern location is for. A couple of well-placed suggestions (DC 21 minimum) on weaker-willed party members...say the fighters who are probably decked out with some sweet swag...and suddenly the party is faced with the choice of "Crap, Olaf's under the BBRD's spell!" An adventurer faced with a Grapple by a creature of the BBRD size might have issues, as well.
The BBRD probably has access to some serious goodies in his/her hoard and has lived long enough to probably categorize them by usefulness. The Draconomicon does provide dragon-specific magic items; you may want to consider giving those a look. It is quite possible that your players might know your BBEG is a BBRD and will prep fire protection potions or spells. Give 'em a switch up by having the dragon drink a draught of dragon breath (I think that's what they're called) that changes their breath weapon type. A shadow dragon's enervating/negative energy breath would be useful...
Terrain is also an important consideration - if BBRD likes to warm his toes in a lava flow, there's nothing stopping him from using it against the party, as well as stashing his "emergency" items down there (which presumably are protected against lava). It's handy, most creatures can't get to it - what's a dragon not to like?
By the time your party finishes off the red-scaled *bad naughty four-letter word*, they will be like "YESSSS!! We got that scaly bastard!"
I'll finish it up with a restatement of what I said above: build up the tension but don't be heavy-handed when it comes down to the wire.
Last time I checked, the CR of a great red wyrm was somewhere in the mid-20s, and can easily be boosted upward with Draconomicon goodies if desired. Your average demon prince or archdevil would at least think real hard before trying to take one down. He's a serious playyah, probably in world-level politics--even just by sitting in his volcanic mountain cave on his treasure-pile, 'cause everyone knows if the GRW comes forth, the world is going to turn to crap. If that's not enough pizzazz for your players, maybe you better run the campaign to 35th level and have them take on Hextor or Erythnul in the flesh!
If there has any one ingredient that every BBEG needs it is this.
Personal Character Involvement.
With it, the fight is bound to be intense and exciting. The thing players will talk about for years. Without is, even the most powerful enemy will feel like a big styrofoam target (did I spell styrofoam right?). Two examples.
In one campaign I was in, the GM made every enemy extreemely powerful but about as flavorful as cardboard. They had no flare, no style, just lots of armor and weapons. We really didn't feel good about killing those enemies, it was about as exciting as target shooting. Ho hum, another group of heavily armed mercenaries, lets roll initiative.
In counter point, I was also once in an L5R campaign (fantasy Japan) The setting involved mostly humans. The BBEG, in this campaign was the brother of one of the characters. He wasn't particularily powerful, though he was vicious and greedy. After about six months, this character had managed to get most of us almost killed on several occasions, and even gotten one of our characters striped of his honor and declared a ronin (masterless samurai, very bad thing) Finally, though much planning and maneuvering and bleeding we had our chance to take him down, upon success our friend would have his honor restored. The moment was great, there was an attack on the city the BBEG was in and our character group fought our way through enemy lines and into the city seeking him. Finally we stood before him and our friend drew his sword. It was great, sure the guy wasn't particularily powerful as a swordsman, but the drama and the build up was wonderful. We sooooo wanted to get this guy.
I guess what I am getting at is make sure this dragon is somebody to the player character. Dragons do more than just sit on their hoards. Its like Peruhain said, there is no reason why this dragon will not be heavily invovled in the politics of the area. He may even make moves to counter the players long before they ever stand face to face against him. Give him plenty of flavor and characterization. Let him be someone the players can really love to hate, or even regret having to destroy, or anything as long as this dragon feels real and the PCs have a personal connection with him. That way they will tell their friends about the time they fought and thwarted Teshiak, not just, oh yah we killed a dragon.
Apart from that, be sure to use Lillith's suggestions for how this guy should fight. Let him be the crafty dragon he should be. After all, its hard to pull the wool over the eyes of someone who has lived for 1000 years.
What Sel said - make 'em feel involved. In the words of Tidus from FF X, "This is my story." Make them want to relive that moment over and over again.
Think about it Devils, Gods and Demonlords. While mighty and ye world shattering beings why is it always the divine guys who are out to take over/destroy the world.
Dragons are badass, primordial beings who are often smarter than demon lords and have constant access to the material plane. An evil and smart dragon would have a number of organisations answerable to him, not to mention a local population of savage humanoids who worship him as some mighty being. Moreover why not make the dragon a her. A female dragon who through careful breeding has laid the seeds of a powerful cabal of spellcasters is not someone to be trifled with.
So in the end the PCs are headed for the Dragon's home turf to fight the mightyiest of mighty dragons? Then so be it! Make the traps particularly diabolical, the guardians unique and terrifying. Make the NPCs in your game viable and motivated. There are sure to be many individuals with a vested interest in keeping a dragon in power.
Remember religion doesn't kill PCs, scary monsters and well placed traps kill PCs. Good luck with your adventure path and remember that something ye ancient and olde as a dragon probably has plans within riddles wrapped in a chocolatey outside to make their ultimate goal come to fruition.
well, yes, All of this is good. And I had been thinking about the strategies for how the great dragon of the Vale plays out, and there is some good advice that i had already considered and not....
Yes, the personal involvement is the big factor. And that is part of the focus of the campaign...to make the player characters feel a personal stake in it.
But I guess what I was asking, more than that, was...
Does anyone think that the players will feel in any way cheated? they aren't taking on a demon prince, or a god, or anything on that kind of power level.
And players like to talk about their accomplishments to other gamers, they cherish good stories of a good campaign. I don't want them to mumble about the climactic adventure, even if it was as viable a challenge as Kyuss was in Age of Worms.
I guess if i play it right, and they're involved, they'll find a way to communicate that when they tell anyone.
Here's hoping....
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Well, to answer, it probably boils down to how good is the campaign leading up to the great conclusion. If it was a memorable experience along the way, followed by a good climactic fight and tie-up of the campaign threads, I don't think anyone will be "cheated". The old battling-gods-and-demon-princes thing might just be a passing fad. You could look back and feel that that sort of stuff was just so, y'know, AP 1 and 2. The really good stuff with the dragons and stuff really kicked of with the next few APs.
I suppose what I am trying to say is that, if the campaign has a good conception in terms of basic plot and character motivation, is well executed in terms of roleplaying and tactical situations, and gives everyone a good time while playing, then you are doing fine. Comparing your idea against the ideas created by the Dungeon team is pointless - those are their ideas, this is your idea, and the two are different.
Personally, I think a great wyrm red dragon sounds a great antagonist - they are certainly VERY tough opponents, with an arsenal of physical and magical options, and VERY SMART. In fact, I'd quite like to sign up for this campaign, it sounds like fun. ;-)
I think a lot of the comments above are also pertinent - the memorability of the campaign probably depends a lot less on the stats of the bad guy, and much more on the quality of the campaign and how involved the players feel in the world and their characters. In my own campaign, I have tried my best to give the characters backstory that ties into the plot - there is nothing like having a brother trying to kill you, or corruption in your temple, to motivate your PCs. That, not whether you are looking at a dragon, deity or archduke of Hell at the climactic encounter, is what really matters. And, frankly, it sounds like that is a base that you intend to cover anyway.
Does anyone think that the players will feel in any way cheated? they aren't taking on a demon prince, or a god, or anything on that kind of power level.
And players like to talk about their accomplishments to other gamers, they cherish good stories of a good campaign. I don't want them to mumble about the climactic adventure, even if it was as viable a challenge as Kyuss was in Age of Worms.
I guess if i play it right, and they're involved, they'll find a way to communicate that when they tell anyone.
Here's hoping....
Some of my best adventures that had a big baddie at the end were not gods, demons or devils - just a guy that had been a pain in the posterior throughout the campaign. You've got the right mindset - it's not WHAT you fight that's important, it's WHO you fight. If you set the stage for the mastermind and build up the tension, the plots, the stories, the interweaving connections between it all and point toward the Dragon, then all the demon princes of the Abyss ain't got nothin' on it. They're just spectators.
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I'd say make it personal. One or more of the players has history with this bmf. Maybe for amusement it torches one of their home villages, leaving the character screaming for vengeance. Or the halcyon halfling village whose inhabitants have befriended them, when all others seem to want to beat them down.
Maybe, also, the characters arrive somewhere after a big adventure, and get a 30% tariff levied on all treasures to help in paying "the dragon tax." Also they can't find any equipment to buy; merchants are holding back their goods until the dragon tax is sated for the month/year/time being.
Or, they might have to pass through a mountain valley, the only way through, and they see this bmf making blaze runs along the path there, cutting off their progress for 2 whole days. This could really suck if they're on a time limit, or if they have someone chasing them.
The dragon could also destabilize one kingdom, torching crops, and leading other kingdoms to capitalize on it all by sparking off a war.
Or bmf actually lands one day and like a true highwayman strips them of all their hard-earned treasure. Or some wormlings get in on the extortion racket, and they can get an ounce of flesh, whetting their appetite for the pound at the end of it all.
After a while, they'll be begging to put this bastard to the sword.
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Or bmf actually lands one day and like a true highwayman strips them of all their hard-earned treasure.Wow, that would REALLY make it personal. I'll have to steal that one... :-)
There was one Star Trek where Kirk's old nemesis Finnegan the upper classman came back to haunt him. Going off of that, I used to get purposely monty haul on the characters, then have one assinine npc rob them chronically; he was always 3-4 levels higher than them, and had a few slackjaw cronies.
It also helps them hate him if you can make him a real dork; think the older brother in Weird Science. And they eventually have to dust this cat; it's only fair, and it really gives them the illusion of accomplishment.Also, after he highwaymans them and they walk back into town in their underwear, the next adventure hook is "we'll do this mission to repay the nice guy who was good enough to reequip us," like Ivanhoe and Isaac of York.
Remember, Conan was ALWAYS losing all his equipment but his loincloth and boots, getting made prisoner, whatnot, and he always seemed to be able to bounce back.
I guess to cut to the heart of the question posted, here's the thing. Dragons are cool, but yes they can be overdone. The game is called Dungeons and Dragons and over the years both have been used extensively. You want something memorable, something that's an accomplishment your players can savvor. Getting rid of a dragon can be cool. Getting rid of a really devious dragon can be very cool (or frustrating...or both). Getting rid of a really devious dragon that's also an interesting NPC that the PCs have grown to hate can be really really cool--but at the end of the day it's one less dragon and some treasure.
The reason for gods and demons as campaign ending foes is that they are centerpieces of settings. They represent the history and often entire political and religious communities. Taking them out shifts the foundations of a setting. If you want the characters to go "WHOA! DUDE!" these are the kinds of baddies you want. My advice--make the Red Wyrm an intermediary, the boss before the final boss. Perhaps do with him what they talk about in the listing for the Fiendwurm (MM2 pg. 99) and his guts are the only portal to the realm where the REAL badguy rules resplendant. Have the heroes hack into the carcass of the fallen dragon and there amid the roiling innards and ichor find the portal to the final and true enemy.
The Epic Level Handbook has lots of these kinds of badguys. There are some others scattered throughout the Monster Manuals. The thing to remember is scope. There must be nothing like this badguy anywhere--he must be a taproot of evil which spreads and webs through every corner of your setting. Toppling him should shake and change the world forever. Do this and you shall exalt your players and they will love you.
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Even if these guys love the journey, and even if i make it a fabulous challenge for them...I don't want the players going up to other gamers after and saying 'yeah, we retired at level 20 by taking on and taking out the Dragon of Hadrach Vale' and having the other gamer respond 'so? you fought a dragon?'
If your climactic encounter were with a 22nd level Necromancer and his horde of level-draining minions, would you worry about, "So? You fought a human?"
I think much of the other advice you've gotten is good. Make sure that by the end of the campaign the characters have seen the dragon's face (?) behind all of their enemies. And there's nothing that says that the dragon should be "just" a "generic" Elder Wyrm Red Dragon, any more than other campaigns would end with just a generic demon lord.
FWIW, I'd not be bothered at all to tell stories about such a campaign.
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I had another 'brilliant' idea. You know how Ring Around the Rosey is really about the bubonic plague? Well, the kids in this campaign world need nursery rhymes about this wretched horrible dragon. The characters walk by, hear the kids singing creepy nursery rhymesabout the dragon that torches villages and eats children out late after dark; maybe helps make it real.
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I guess to cut to the heart of the question posted, here's the thing. Dragons are cool, but yes they can be overdone. The game is called Dungeons and Dragons and over the years both have been used extensively. You want something memorable, something that's an accomplishment your players can savvor. Getting rid of a dragon can be cool. Getting rid of a really devious dragon can be very cool (or frustrating...or both). Getting rid of a really devious dragon that's also an interesting NPC that the PCs have grown to hate can be really really cool--but at the end of the day it's one less dragon and some treasure.
The reason for gods and demons as campaign ending foes is that they are centerpieces of settings. They represent the history and often entire political and religious communities. Taking them out shifts the foundations of a setting. If you want the characters to go "WHOA! DUDE!" these are the kinds of baddies you want. My advice--make the Red Wyrm an intermediary, the boss before the final boss. Perhaps do with him what they talk about in the listing for the Fiendwurm (MM2 pg. 99) and his guts are the only portal to the realm where the REAL badguy rules resplendant. Have the heroes hack into the carcass of the fallen dragon and there amid the roiling innards and ichor find the portal to the final and true enemy.
The Epic Level Handbook has lots of these kinds of badguys. There are some others scattered throughout the Monster Manuals. The thing to remember is scope. There must be nothing like this badguy anywhere--he must be a taproot of evil which spreads and webs through every corner of your setting. Toppling him should shake and change the world forever. Do this and you shall exalt your players and they will love you.
I have to disagree. If it is "just another dragon", then that is not the fault of the players or the game, it is a fault of the campaign in its execution. Any CR23+ creature is never "just another....", that is a serious player in the gameworld.
And shaking the foundations of the gameworld? Well, yeah, that can be memorable too. But it doesn't have to be a huge realignment of the pantheon. I would say a big realignment in the politics of the region can be just as satisfying. Say your dragon is the puppetmaster of the evil kingdom/thieves guild/nasty religion. Shifting that, making the lives of the common man a bit better because now the place is being run by the benevolent good guys now - that would satisfy me.
You don't have to kill a god, it is about storytelling. A god is, at the end of the day, just a bundle of stats too. It is how you use those stats. It doesn't matter that much, in my opinion, what the stats are.
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I had another 'brilliant' idea. You know how Ring Around the Rosey is really about the bubonic plague? Well, the kids in this campaign world need nursery rhymes about this wretched horrible dragon. The characters walk by, hear the kids singing creepy nursery rhymesabout the dragon that torches villages and eats children out late after dark; maybe helps make it real.
That is just such a cool idea! KUDOS!!!
Let's face it, the dragon will be hundreds, maybe thousands of years old. It will be a thing of myth and legend - a nursery rhyme about it is just so appropiate. I am so stealing this idea!
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I had another 'brilliant' idea. You know how Ring Around the Rosey is really about the bubonic plague? Well, the kids in this campaign world need nursery rhymes about this wretched horrible dragon. The characters walk by, hear the kids singing creepy nursery rhymesabout the dragon that torches villages and eats children out late after dark; maybe helps make it real.
Hey - maybe you could build up so that maybe the dragon IS a myth - and then (shock horror!) it really isn't. Or maybe it is a myth, and the final encounter is something else entirely. Bluff and double bluff - keep'em guessing. Oh, this idea really has great potential.
Undoubtedly, a self-centered egotistical creature like a red dragon would delight in such tales being told about him and would foster such myths, probably sowing a few "fake" stories about the dragon's weaknesses (which are his strengths).
I do like the nursery rhyme bit, I may have to use that myself.