Erik Mona has been a godsend for fans of specific campaign settings. Weather its Old School Greyhawk references, or a desire to include more quality Eberron of Forgotten Realms adventures and articles, Erik has been really good to us all.
I also know that Erik is correct . . . there are people that are Forgotten Realms fans that would buy more magazines if there were more specific Forgotten Realms specific material in the books. They come for the FR, see the quality, and they stay for the "generic" so I have to endorse his thought process.
That having been said, what we need is some ideas for how to go about getting more FR adventures written and submitted to the magazine. Since the FR is a setting that is in motion, be it in the sourcebooks or in the novels, we have some built in focus to try and get some adventures to orbit around.
More of the FR fandom does need to get into the act of writing some adventures. I know I need to start buckling down and going over the guidelines to see if I can hammer out a decent, out of my own campaign adventure to submit. Eric Boyd and Thomas Reid are great guys, but if we want to see four or more of these things a year, then we aren't going to be able to count on these guys for everything, especially if we expect more sourcebooks and novels out of them.
What I think the FR fans should focus on in order to get some things published are as follows, and if the Dungeon editors would like to chime in and let us know if these ideas would work, that would be great as well.
1. Adventures that tie into a major novel storyline. But this, I don't mean that you interact with Sarya Dlardregeth or Sammaster, but rather, that we come up with adventures that are peripherially tied to what has gone on.
An adventure that deals with working with elves that have recently returned to Cormanthor around the time of Seiveril's crusade might tie into The Last Mythal books.
An adventure where PCs have to deal with a dragon affected by the Rage (perhaps even a "lesser" non-True dragon) to tie into the Year of Rogue Dragons book.
Heck, anything that deals with Mask and Sembia to tie into the Erevis Cale books.
The thing that I would ask the editors about this is if there would be a problem with timeline issues. The current FR sourcebooks list the current year in FR as 1374 DR, but obviously, an adventure set during The Rage would happen in 1373 DR, so would it be alright to set an adventure a year "in the past" to fit the theme?
2. Adventures that tie into a sourcebook that has just come out. Again, the adventure shouldn't have to use all of the rules or monsters in a new sourcebook, but utilizing key information or themes from the book would be a must.
An adventure that deals with religious heresies, especially the ones mentioned in Power of Faerun would work, as would adventures that tie into some of the events that were mentioned in the military sections. No need for large scale battles, but having an adventure in Northern Amn and running into Stingers and representatives of the Sothillian Empire would be great.
Obviously you have a double whammy coming up with Dragons of Faerun coming up, as an adventure that deals with a raging dragon could tie both into this upcoming sourcebook and the Year of Rogue Dragons books.
With the Mysteries of the Moonsea book coming out, and with Sons of Grummsh having come out last year, an adventure set in the Moonsea region would be a great tie into both of these.
With the Twilight Tomb adventure coming out, an adventure that ties into Unapproachable East and Star Elves would likely be a good thing to come up with.
Now, in general, tying into these has to be done carefully. An adventure that ties into the Unapproachable East and deals with Star Elves need not have you writing a piece that saves the Sidleyuir from the Nilshays once and for all, but having an encounter with a Star Elf that is beset by some kind of aberration spawned by the Nilsays, and that elf aiding them in what they are about to do next in the region would be a good tie.
Its all about flavoring.
I have a feeling that adventures that tie into products in this manner would get a better shot at seeing the light of day than that adventure you want to send in where you wander around in the Western Heartlands between Elturel and Ireabor. While there may be tons to do there, its harder to "sell" it than it would be to tie it into something big going on in the setting as a whole.
So, any other FR fans got some ideas, or want to try taking a shot at getting some of these published.
To the editors, am I way off track on what would catch your eye, or do you have anything to add?
KEJ,
Great post. Glad to see someone starting this discussion.
Obviously, I would love to see more Dungeon adventures set in the Realms.
I am very curious as to the response of the editors, as your suggestion is probably NOT what I would have suggested. Don't get me wrong, I like the suggestion, but I would have guessed that what you propose would be a hard sell, in large part because it's very tough to write adventures tied into an upcoming product if you're not an employee or regular freelancer for WoTC. If you wait til after the product is released, then the adventure is not likely to be very "timely", and I think this type of combined product / novel / Dungeon adventure synergy is much more valuable if it all appears around the same time.
Personally, I would like to see more "run anytime" type adventures that work across a broad range of time periods, such as 1358 DR, 1367 DR, 1372 DR, and 1375 DR. For example, an adventure set in the Dungeon of the Hark or Ahghairon's Tower or an orc lair in the Greypeaks. This is not to say that I'm advocating "simple dungeon crawls" (not that there's anything wrong with that). Instead, I'm suggesting adventures that detail a site and an event which the DM can "trigger" at any time. That way, no matter where the PCs are in the timeline, the DM can use the adventure at the appropriate time in the campaign.
The FRCS is also a great source of inspiration. There are countless short little paragraphs detailing a "recent event" or an "interesting locale". It would be very cool to start tackling these event and setting hooks one-by-one. However, just because a hook is setting-specific or event-specific doesn't mean that the actual adventure should be so limited. I do think that the original nugget should inform the adventure design and be one possible way to use the adventure though.
Just some thoughts. As for me, I wrote and submitted one adventure this year. (That's probably it for the year, given other writing commitments, including a commitment mentioned in the Dungeon #135 editorial). Still waiting to hear back from the editors, but I'm hopeful. If it appears in print, you'll see what I mean about combining a classic Realms setting with an event that can be triggered by the DM as needed for the campaign.
--Eric
I have sent in a proposal for a FR adventure, set in the Moonshaes. I love the Realms still, and I'm an active player in a friends FR campaign. I have the FRCS and am trolling my old FR campaign notes for more adventure ideas. The problem is my old FR campaigns were quite off the "canon" so I have to study the FRCS with a bit more intensity to catch up on all the things I missed out on by blowing off the Time of Troubles, Cyric, Mystra, Kelemvor and all that stuff.
Admitedly, the tie in for novels will be a bit easier, since you have a bit more lead time seeing the begining of a trilogy and what it deals with. When the first book of the Year of Rogue Dragons came out, I could see doing an adventure with a dragon in the rage.
Of course, like I said, you wouldn't want to write anything that would have to presuppose the ending of the storyline. A single dragon afflicted by the rage wouldn't have to have anything to do with the overall storyline.
An upcoming example would be to do an adventure dealing with undead set in Thay, to be ready around the time that Richard Lee Byers new trilogy starts up. I think you could come up with an adventure that fits this template without even really needing to know much about the trilogy, unless of course for some reason in that trilogy we are told that undead of this type or that doesn't exist in Thay, and we've never really been clued into that before.
Another example would be to do an adventure that has to do with Shadovar looking for lost Netherese items. This is a general theme, but at the same time, can tie into Paul Kemp's upcoming Cale/Shadovar novels.
Thanks for replying Eric, its good to know you are still on top of this as well. F2K, it would be interesting to see the Moonshaes come up again. I'm not sure what the editors are looking for with regard to this, but trips back to Maztica, especially to see what is up with the newer settlements might be interesting as well, though its not the direction my mind is running right now.
Creative Director
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The long drought of FR adventures will be coming to a close soon; we've got several in the wings waiting to be published. But we certainly need more! Send in those proposals!
As for the ideas mentioned here... while we certainly welcome adventrues tied to novels, there's a tricky thing there. Novels and adventrues are two different things, and it's tough to make the two meet. We're not looking for adaptations of adventures from FR novels at all. An adventrue sequel to a novel might work, but in any event the adventure has to be about the players. We don't want characters from novels showing up to save the day; their role in an adventure has to be little more than a cameo, since we don't want an NPC stealing the limelight from the PCs, and in many cases, we won't be able to have any significant events happen to those key NPCs without getting clearance from WotC. It's better to keep characters and events from the novels offstage in adventrues as a result.
I wouldn't want to write something that is more that peripherally tied to a novel, but the fact that there is a tie might be a draw. As I said above, a dragon affected by the rage is a pretty broad category in Faerun in 1373 DR, as it eventually deals affects all dragons on the continent, to one degree or another. It wouldn't have anything to do with Dorn and his dragon hunters, the Rogue Dragons, the Cult of the Dragon, or Sammaster. But it would be peripherally tied to the events.
Likewise, an adventure that deals with the Shadovar could be tied to the upcoming Paul S Kemp books, by virtue of the fact that the Shadovar are indeed actively looking for lost Netherese magic. None of the Princes of Shade, nor Erevis Cale need to make an appearance in the adventure, nor would I want them to.
I guess I am just thinking of ways to make the adventure pop out as a current event, as something that a person reading Dungeon might say is a good adventure, and oh, these books have something to do with it, so I may pick them up as well, or vice versa.
James, reading your post about an adventure sequel, let me tell you what this would spur in my mind, just off the top of my head.
Its a bit out of date now, but having characters mopping up after Grodd goblins after Nalavara's attack, or fighting them off chasing some rebel nobles into the Stonelands, etc. would be more my mindset, not having the PCs run into Regent Alusair, Vangerdahast, or even Glarasteer Rhauligan.
While there is definately a place in a long term campaign for PCs to run into NPC from various sourcebooks and novels, I would have to firmly point out that I absolutely hate the whole "Super NPC" stereotype of the Realms.
Adventures with stronger ties with the Realms-shaking-events and other FR specific features (iconic characters, organizations and locations) would be great, since "Generic" FR adventures are IMO pointless and better placed in the default setting Greyhawk.
It would be great to see adventures dealing with:
- Shade after Archwizards novels
- The war/truce with the monsters in Amn
- Cormyr in the Year of Rogue Dragons
- Obould, after the recent Salvatore series
- The war in the Old Empires
- A tie-in to the Red Hand of Doom and the Shining South
- The current events in Cormanthor
I think a fairly good reference point for both the good and bad ways of making an adventure more Forgotten Realms specific would be the Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 games. The overall plot is good and epic and makes the Player the star (being the offspring of the dead God of Murder and the complications that come with it) with strong integration of the background material (Shadow Thieves of Amn, Various clerics, NPCs of the Harpers, Zhentarim, Rasheman, references to the Sithisillian Empire etc.) But ultimately they weave a story that is unique to these characters (neither Sarevok nor Jon Irenicus were ever detailed in the Forgotten Realms canon)and fleshes out what may have been previously unused areas (Durlag's Tower and Watcher's Keep come to mind).
The bad points, for me at least, were the guest appearances by folks like Elminster and Drizzt (who was conveniently quite a long way from Icewind Dale). However, appearances by NPCs detailed in the setting book that aren't as iconic and well known and super powerful is certainly welcome, because they can be background dressing that doesn't steal the show in any way, shape or form.
For me, the best ideas to make something Forgotten Realms specific and still a quality adventure usable by everyone (and I'm sorry if I'm reiterating the other very good points that have been made) is to use the underdeveloped parts, maybe update the really classic content to reflect the current timeline: Haunted Halls of Eveningstar has always been a draw for young adventurers, maybe you could do a reimagining a la Maure Castle, but for lower level characters, publishing a level a month for three months or something; use Forgotten Realms specific deities as reference points (even though there are hundreds of them, there is usually a decent generic replacement) and use Forgotten Realms specific monsters (reprinting statblocks so that Eberron/Greyhawk/Homebrew DMs can just change the name, or leave as is just because players rarely complain about using unique monsters). If specific Forgotten Realms, or Eberron or Greyhawk events are used, just allude to them unless they are being introduced entirely in the adventure that's being published.
I think the Mere of Dead Men series from way back in Second Edition Dungeon was a good example of how to handle these; the adventures are set in a vast swamp, largely seperated from each other with the only unifying factor being the Rings of Myrkul hidden in each. If I need to use a supposedly haunted manor, Holk House is servicable almost straight out of the magazine. All of the pieces can be used on their own, with or without Forgotten Realms material. In the end it's really all about balancing generic against specific.
WOTC is looking to make this year (or maybe next year) the Year of the Dragon acroos all of their product lines. With MM IV coming out with a pretty draconic cover it might make sense to have an adventure take place during 1373 DR - the Year of Rogue Dragons and have a bit of the Rage sgow up.
I've argued against the practice, as with City of the Spider Queen, of tieing adventures to current-timeline events. They gain a certain buzz -- though really I think that kind of marketing gimmickry has been greatly to the setting's long-term disadvantage -- but they tend to be limited to campaigns that (a) use the official timeline, (b) are set in its latest year, and (c) are interested in taking part in the particular event...
Caveat: I'm not an FR fan, and have my own set of (sometimes unique) biases :)
That said, I think tie-ins to larger events would be unappealing to many -- it diminishes the heroic character of the PCs, making them peripheral, bit-players.
What I do think makes sense is for Dungeon to pick a previously-undeveloped period and set a series of (perhaps connected) adventures there. That way the actions of the players would be the central, heroic events. Encounters with important NPCs would be cool, but shouldn't be in the context of the NPCs' exploits.
What would be way-cool, but probably run up against copyright issues, is adventure outcomes providing the reasons and explanations for future events or conditions that are canon -- again, make the PCs the defining heroes of the age.
As always, IMHO. For whatever this might be worth.
Jack
Back in the days of first and second edition, I wasn't much of a Realms fan. Oh, I loved all the Dragon articles by Ed Greenwood, but for some reason the original boxed set left me asking, so what?
It just seemed like the Realms had to one-up GH by being bigger and having more of everything - more gods, more magic, more nations, but little cohesion or continuity. It came off like someone's home campaign expanded by a committee. As we all know, more does not necessarily mean better.
And where were the string of classic supporting modules? It didn't help that you had to read scores of novels to keep abreast of official campaign developments. Then there were all those annoying scimitar wielding drow that started to pop up everywhere. In short, Realms stock was falling - fast.
But then came 3rd edition and the FRCS. The world was rewritten, collated and scaled to a more manageable size - and the production value! What a difference. I immediately "got it."
Now the Lost Empires of Faerun has made a great campaign setting even better. I so wish Greyhawk had a book like this - written by purists, and covering the Suloise and Baklunish civilizations in detail. I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
Primarily as a result of the FRCS and the Lost Empires of Faerun, I now consider myself a Forgotten Realms fan. I personally would welcome more FR material, but not at the expense of Greyhawk material. Eberron I can take or leave - not a bad setting, just not good old traditional D&D.
...Eberron I can take or leave - not a bad setting, just not good old traditional D&D.
Yeah, I think it's a marketing mistake -- WotC's flagship campaign (which one might argue Eberron is now) should be closer to standard swords & sorcery fare.
My impression is that it is good, but I think a more traditional setting would have been a better centerpiece for their product line.
Jack
I appreciate everyone that replied to this topic, and apparently I have no sense of how to market these things, but at least I know, so I'll give up that track.
One thing that does interest me however, is that either I am not communicating my point well, or perhaps peoples bias' about the Forgotten Realms as a setting are creeping in and setting opinions before my original posts sink in.
By "tying in" to events, I did not, by any means want to imply that the PCs would be following Dorn and company during the Year of Rogue Dragons books, or hanging out with Erevis Cale when they ran into Shadovar.
My point was to peripherally tie into the events by having a similar element, but separate plots. Running into a dragon affected by the rage ties into Year of Rogue Dragons, but the PCs would not be anywhere near Dorn and company, nor even find out about what they are up to.
I will say this however. It does suddenly becomes very intimidating to even try to do a Forgotten Realms adventure. In general, FR fans seem to bit a bit leary of accepting "official" adventure from someone other than an established Realms author, and non-FR fans seem to immediately dismiss the adventure, assuming its going to be some derivation of, "lets follow Drizzt or Elminster around and mop up anyone they forget to dispatch."
Back in the days of first and second edition, I wasn't much of a Realms fan. Oh, I loved all the Dragon articles by Ed Greenwood, but for some reason the original boxed set left me asking, so what?
And where were the string of classic supporting modules? It didn't help that you had to read scores of novels to keep abreast of official campaign developments.
But then came 3rd edition and the FRCS. The world was rewritten, collated and scaled to a more manageable size - and the production value! What a difference. I immediately "got it."
I loved the Realms boxed set from 1987 immediately, precisely because it wasn't so detailed. It was a barebones shell that I could make my own so very easily. It was exactly what I wanted (and what I thought all commercial campaign worlds were supposed to be), a campaign world about 60% finished.
I blew off most of the novels. The only novels that I adopted into my campaign world was the original Icewind Dale series. Drizzt never showed up in my world, the Time of Troubles never happened and no one cared except for the one player who left my table in a huff because my campaign wasn't really "official"--no, it wasn't Takasi as far as I know. My FR campaign ran for 15 years and the only supplements I ever bought was Waterdeep, the Savage Frontier and the Moonshaes--my campaign never left the Sword Coast area, there was so much to explore there.
When I picked up D&D again with 3.5 after a 2 1/2 year hiatus, I picked up the FRCS and was just blown away by the amount of work and artwork and how cool it was. However, I wanted to get back to more traditional D&D, so I went back to a campaign I hadn't ran in 18 years--Greyhawk, set before the GH Wars!
A good friend started running a FR campaign and I still got my dose of FR goodness, so I'm good.
As far as more FR adventures in Dungeon--I'm studying the FRCS very carefully and my own old campaign notes to come up with ideas to query Dungeon with. Maybe I'll get lucky and one of my ideas will strike a chord with the editors. There is certainly no lack of potential places to place an adventure.
There has actually been some pretty good official FR adventures with both 2nd and 3rd ed that deal with some of the suggestions above:
"Into the Dragons Lair" (3.0 ed) Grodd, and dealing with the goblins, and the dragon lair after King Azoun dies (Cormyr, High Road, Death of the Dragon triology)
"Dead Gods" (Planescape 2nd ed) Deals with what happened to Orcus after Vaasa, and how he tries to come back to the world of the living. It is a very good adventure, with a real good chance to include epic level play. Id highly recommend it.
Personally Id like to see more Epic Level games set in the realms, maybe branching off into some of the planes. I had great hopes for "City of the Spider Queen" but level 12 is simply too low, and the plot too far removed from the really brilliant plot taking place in "War of the Spider Queen".
Ill seriously consider looking into offering Paizo some suggestions, or maybe even some epic level adventures set in the realms.
I run a FRCS campaign and one of the hardest things to learn was that sometimes canon needs to be shot out of a cannon. :-D
Right now, my players (all epic level) are rediscovering the remnants of ancient temples (of Incarnum) spread throughout Toril and awakening their Guardians so that others do not take advantage of its power. The druid is discovering that he's taking his powers far too lightly, the sorcerer/dragon disciple is power drunk and too quick to blast things and the rogue/de facto party leader is shaking his head going "Don't you understand???? You have incredible powers and you don't even know it and you take it for granted!!!" (Last session had some great roleplaying on their parts - I have such an awesome group. :-D ) I had a guest at my last session, another roleplayer who was jonesin' hard for a game. He wants to play a monk, but I tossed the idea of a monk/truenamer/disciple of the word at him and he jumped at the chance. Might make for an interesting dynamic within this group...Three Temples found, seven to go...and the next one's in the middle of the Evermoors!! Mwah hah hah!
Anyway, back to Forgotten Realms and "canon" - I don't mind having adventures peripherally tied to "goings-on" in the Realms, but the second I see a more well-known character mentioned or shown in the adventure, I groan and it falls about 30 feet below sea level in my eyes. NPCs like the aforementioned Drow Ranger and Sage of Shadowdale are nice, but I'd rather read the novels. Forgotten Realms is more about the place when I'm running a game in it - the players are the stars. If I drop too many big names, it starts to feel like the players are the supporting cast, which isn't how it should be.
Drizzt never showed up in my world, the Time of Troubles never happened and no one cared except for the one player who left my table in a huff because my campaign wasn't really "official"--no, it wasn't Takasi as far as I know.
Dude, I'm running Age of Worms in Eberron. What in the world makes you think I'm overly critical of the use of canon?
One of the things I like about Eberron is the same thing you liked about the Forgotten Realms back in the day. There is a lot of ambiguity. Even the supplements aren't written in terms of absolutes. There are no metaplots or world shaking events thus far. One of the goals Keith Baker has had in writing adventures is an intentional lack of consequence. If the adventurers succeed there's no huge change in the world. Raiders of the Lost Ark is a perfect example of this type of story. Eberron has no ongoing epic history in development like FR and Greyhawk have.
If you're confusing my requests for adaptation notes with rigid requirements for shared worlds then you're completely mistaken. I want professionally crafted options, not official canon. For example, Keith Baker came up with several excellent ideas for the Wind Dukes. Choosing all of them wouldn't make sense; it's up to the DM to decide. I like the fact that a professional insider who understands the campaign is working on this. I also think that if someone is going to come up with this material that they should be paid for it. You can't legally pay someone to make material for Spelljammer or Planescape anymore yet there are many people who wish they could pay (or be paid) for new material. One day Eberron (or Forgotten Realms or even - *gasp* - Greyhawk) might be in the same boat, so we shouldn't squander opportunities to help the best artists of our time to portray these worlds.
Sorry to add to the threadjack. I love the Year of Rogue Dragons novels and I would strongly consider running an adventure in Dungeon if it used material from the upcoming Dragons of Faerun supplement. I also wouldn't have any problem if the adventure references Dorn or Elminster or Drizz't...
I apologize to you Takasi. I was interpreting your adaption notes crusade incorrectly; it just seemed like you were overly concerned with "officialness."
One of the goals Keith Baker has had in writing adventures is an intentional lack of consequence. If the adventurers succeed there's no huge change in the world. Raiders of the Lost Ark is a perfect example of this type of story. Eberron has no ongoing epic history in development like FR and Greyhawk have.
Ugh, if this is true then it only reinforces my opinion that Eberron was desgined from the ground up to be a MMORPG setting - sterile and ultimately pointless. FR might be dominated by epic NPC's, but at least you can interact with them and perhaps steer the course of major events. Heck, in FR you can even challenge the gods, although those that tried don't have a very good track record.
Anyway, if I want to feel powerless to change the world, I can just watch the nightly propa . . . er, I mean news. If I'm playing a 16th level character, I no longer expect to be led by the nose to find my adventures. High level PC's should have the power to change the campaign. If they don't, then they're just props for the DM.
Ugh, if this is true then it only reinforces my opinion that Eberron was desgined from the ground up to be a MMORPG setting - sterile and ultimately pointless. FR might be dominated by epic NPC's, but at least you can interact with them and perhaps steer the course of major events. Heck, in FR you can even challenge the gods, although those that tried don't have a very good track record.
Anyway, if I want to feel powerless to change the world, I can just watch the nightly propa . . . er, I mean news. If I'm playing a 16th level character, I no longer expect to be led by the nose to find my adventures. High level PC's should have the power to change the campaign. If they don't, then they're just props for the DM.
You can still do this. In fact, there are plenty of plot hooks that entice DMs to change the world. However, from a SHARED WORLD perspective WotC doesn't progress the settings (you do). The mantra is to present material 2 years after the Mourning (or before).
Novels don't introduce world shaking events, like the gods walking the earth, dragons going crazy, taking over the world, etc. I love this. There are thousands of years of history, and to me it's much more valuable for a D&D world to read a novel that illustrates the past rather than changes the future.
As far as influencing the campaign, Eberron makes it EASIER to change the world. NPCs are generally lower level, and there are a lot of carefully balanced powers in place that can be influenced or even dominated even if you're only 10th level. It's exactly the opposite of how you perceive the setting.
Put that way, it makes more sense, and is basically the model for Greyhawk. One of the curious things about Greyhawk is that the fans never felt any pressure to acknowledge the novels as "canon," except for maybe the first two Gord books. Yet FR and obviously Dragonlance fans, the novels weigh much more heavily. I would have no trouble killing off a major NPC from either world if the situation called for it, but I gather that's not the case with most.
As for Eberron, I don't want to get into a debate over its merits or flaws. It didn't draw my dollar, but it obviously has its fans and that's good enough for me. I even own Races of Eberron - really keen book.
I'll just make one more point about Eberron. It's the genre bending that I have a problem with. It just seems odd to me that D&D is offering "alternative" fantasy while squatters like WoW and Evercrack milk the golden goose online, but that's a whole other can of worms, and I'm not talking Kyuss.
As it stands now, as long as WotC at least keeps supporting FR, and Paizo makes with the Greyhawk love, I'll deal. Personally, I would like to see some FR adventures using material from Lost Empires of Faerun. That is one seriously cool book.
As for Eberron, I don't want to get into a debate over its merits or flaws.
You don't want to get into a debate over its merits or flaws, yet you present a flaw. I show you that this flaw doesn't exist (it's actually a merit) and you decide to completely ignore this point. You then go on to show another "flaw".
I'll just make one more point about Eberron. It's the genre bending that I have a problem with. It just seems odd to me that D&D is offering "alternative" fantasy while squatters like WoW and Evercrack milk the golden goose online, but that's a whole other can of worms, and I'm not talking Kyuss.
WoW is much more like Eberron than Greyhawk and it's arguably a much more popular world today than Greyhawk ever was. Also remember that there are a lot of die hard Tolkien fans who turn their noses at Greyhawk for what they perceive to be "alternative fantasy" and genre bending.
Eberron has so many interesting world building ideas that have absolutely nothing to do with robots, skyscrapers or trains. You should be careful not to accidentally spot a flaw when there may not be one.
Also remember that there are a lot of die hard Tolkien fans who turn their noses at Greyhawk for what they perceive to be "alternative fantasy" and genre bending.
Where do you get this interesting demographic data? I'd like to know, because if you're so much in tune with the what "a lot" of people who are into the fantasy genre are thinking, you need to be working in marketing or advertising somewhere.
I'm genuinely curious....
You don't want to get into a debate over its merits or flaws, yet you present a flaw. I show you that this flaw doesn't exist (it's actually a merit) and you decide to completely ignore this point. You then go on to show another "flaw".
Whoah, put the torch down for a second. I accept that I violated my own rule, so your response is a fair cop, but allow me to explain. I expressed an opinion about why it didn't appeal to me. My flaw may be your merit, but this is an aesthetic and subjective choice, not objective fact.
WoW is much more like Eberron than Greyhawk and it's arguably a much more popular world today than Greyhawk ever was. Also remember that there are a lot of die hard Tolkien fans who turn their noses at Greyhawk for what they perceive to be "alternative fantasy" and genre bending.
Well, I guess I opened this particular can of worms, so I'll try to clean up.
As far as I know, you may be right on all counts, I have no way of knowing for sure, but assertions are not proof. It wouldn't make a difference either way. There *is* genre bending in GH. But let's be honest, it's pretty subdued. An apparatus here, one module with a crashed spaceship and Blackmoor do not amount to a genre buster.
As for the Tolkienistas, they've never had the final say in D&D. This has been stressed from day one. So they can all count the hair on the foot of a hobbit, as far as I'm concerned. Greyhawk, whether you like it or not, is the template of what D&D, traditional, good old D&D, is.
Eberron has so many interesting world building ideas that have absolutely nothing to do with robots, skyscrapers or trains. You should be careful not to accidentally spot a flaw when there may not be one.
In case it wasn't clear, I wasn't denigrating Eberron - far from it.
I'm sure there is tons of great material you could mine from it (I certainly plan to), but are there not pseudo-robot characters, trains and other pulp touches also? Whether these facts are flaws or merits are for individuals to decide, but can you honestly argue they're not modern elements? In GH these things were in the background. In Eberron they're up front.
Why is it so terrible to point out that Eberron is not traditional high fantasy/swords & sorcery? After all, that may be a good thing. You seem to think so, and suggest that more and more people agree with you. I say, perhaps.
But I do find it ironic that D&D online felt the need to incorporate distinctly modern elements. Perhaps the tastes of computer gamers demanded something along those lines, I have no idea. When it comes to what I call fantasy and especially D&D, however, I draw the genre line at industrial technology, even in the guise of magic. Period. That is an aesthetic choice, I realize, but it is an absolute one.
I can see your point about not rushing to pre-judgements, and I agree. But can you not appreciate the reasons why some people might not consider Eberron the most definitive style of D&D?
Five words: "Go for the eyes, Boo!"
I'll beg the pardon of you both and introject myself into this stimulating discussion by stating that I'm inclined to largely agree with Devilfish. I follow the d&d game for the traditional fantasy element. I don't enjoy the technology angle at all, and don't incorporate it into my games. I wouldn't particularly care about Ebberon or even Forgotten Realms materials in WotC & Dungeon products if they reasonably also represented Legitimate Greyhawk adventures (ala Greg Vaughan) equally. I don't deem most of the 'world-neutral' products in Dungeon as 'quasi-greyhawk' because they pay it only minimal & indirect reference (Age of Worms and Maure Castle being exceptions) and never deal with the actual history of the Greyhawk campaign specifically.
My point. Since 2000, and the beginning of d&d 3.0, WoTC has produced a measly few number of adventures/modules. The first eight of them (in 2000/2001, ex. Sunless Citadel) were completely generic. Some might argue that since the 'default campaign' for 3.0/3.5 is Greyhawk-thus making those eight Greyhawk adventures, but none contained any references to the World of Greyhawk setting. Of the other remaining few, the Red Hand of Doom is World-neutral. This leaves only Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil as an actual Greyhawk Adventure. If Greyhawk is the 'official/ default' setting for 3.0/3.5, then WoTC and Dungeon ought to specifically pay attention to it, or at least give it equal attention to that given to FR or Ebberon. This I deem, is why nerds like me are disenchanted when so much attention is paid to 'the need to crank out more FR or Ebberon adventures'. It disappoints me that WoTC (particularly) and to a lesser extent, some of our beloved fellow Dungeon readers, deem it more important to clammor for more non-Greyhawk adventures, to the neglect of the 'core' campaign.
The only 3.0 or 3.5 WoTC Adventure/Module specifically for Greyhawk was the Temple of Elemental evil. I personally have no interest in technology. I don't completely oppose it in WoTC or Dungeon products, but I would hope that the "Core Campaign" or D&D (Greyhawk) would at least get equal representation. As it stands, we've got nothing from WoTC, and only Maure Castle, Age of Worms, and Greg Vaughan in Dungeon. If you're going to belly ache for more Ebberon or FR in Dungeon/WoTC products, then please go ahead and plug the 'core campaign' and 'traditional/non-technology fantasy' while your at it.
I'd just like to thank everyone that helped to turn this thread into a complete trainwreck. Rather than actually soliciting ideas about what Dungeon editors want if they are looking for FR adventures, and finding out what other potential authors might be leaning toward with prospective proposals, or even hearing what FR fans might have wanted to see in future FR adventures, we have managed to create the 1275 iteration of the "Eberron doesn't get enough attention, no wait Greyhawk doesn't get enough attention, no wait, Forgotten Realms sucks because of all of the NPCs" thread.
Thanks all. I couldn't have done it without you.
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I just got a new parrot. He says, "Eberron! Eberron is cool! Eberron!" The funny thing is, no matter what I say to him, his response is "Eberron! Eberron is Cool! Eberron!" That's all he says.
I told him Greyhawk rules, he won't hear it. All he wants to talk about is Eberron.
I'm sorry for threadjacking you, Knight Errant Jr., but I just wanted to talk about my new parrot.
I think I'll name him Taco Kamikaze, because I was eating tacos for lunch and he dive bombed me to get the tacos. And you know what he said, after he threadjacked the tacos? "Eberron! Eberron is cool! Eberooooooon! Raak!" That's all.
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I think much could be done with the concept of the Thayvian wizards' new "kinder gentler magic item merchant" (what I assume is a) facade. Numerous evil groups would have the impetus to plot to defame them; frame them for badness or whatnot. Such an adventure plot could conceivably (with minimal tweaking) occur in any urban area where the Thayvians are trying to gain a foothold. I think especially the Zhentarim being the heavies would be of particular utility, since they also are active Faerun-wide.
And the adventurers in the middle, like Clint Eastwood in "A Fistful of Dollars," I think lotsa room for the role playing/political crowd.
KE Jr, I am sorry to threadjack you with my immediate previous post; I was hoping to possibly save some people a lot of aggrivation.
Actually, that one didn't bother me . . .
At any rate, I do like the idea of Red Wizards that are actually innocent, especially if they get framed by some other bad guy power group.
I tend to like mercantile intruige as well, as its something that runs through a lot of the sourcebooks, even if its not as prevelant in the novels. I would love to see the Iron Throne as villains becaues of this.
Sorry Knight....I'll be good from now on.
I think some of the settings from the FR novels could very well be used to write some compelling FR adventures--if the novel characters are left out completely. Spine of the World and Tentowns would be an awesome place to adventure and Drizzt, the dwarf, the barbarian and the others don't need to appear. The thought of those ten little villages clustered together in Icewind Dale, defying nature and the wild beasts of the North, catching fish and carving scrimshaw while sleds take the goods to market always reminded me of the Icerigger novels I read so many years ago. I think some compelling adventures could be crafted there.
I liked the Cities of the Realms feature in Dragon--how about putting some FR backdrops into Dungeon as well? I enjoy the backdrops quite a bit because they are so adaptable and I'm sure the FR fans would drool over a Dungeon issue with an awesome FR backdrop in it....I know I still would because I'll just adapt it for my campaign.
One idea might be to put a Realms backdrop into Dragon and have a corresponding adventure in the same month's issue of Dungeon--written in such a way that the backdrop isn't necessary to run the adventure, but would be available for those DMs who get both magazines to enrich the Dungeon content.
Just a thought....
I'll say it again, I would love to see an "Age of Worms" or "Shackled City" style campaign of linked adventures set in the Forgotten Realms.
Ideally, this series would be tied to some of the plot elements introduced in Lost Empires of Faerun. I'm planning my next FR campaign around a secret society that worships a vestige of the dead god Myrkul. Their goal is to recover the Imaskarcana artifacts to slay the current god of death, Kelemvor. I hope to work in Magic of Incarnum and Weapons of Legacy as well as material from Tome of Magic, but I'm still in the early stages of design, so I'd be happy to see something come along before then. Let's hear some more ideas!
The Cult of Ao - Of course this wouldn't work for people like f2k who don't use the Time of Troubles, but I always figured that there has to be SOME small group that is trying to understand this overgod known only as Ao.
I don't think I've seen many adventures that have to do with Mulhurond or Unther.
The Cult of Ao - Of course this wouldn't work for people like f2k who don't use the Time of Troubles, but I always figured that there has to be SOME small group that is trying to understand this overgod known only as Ao.
I don't think I've seen many adventures that have to do with Mulhurond or Unther.
I've never been a big fan of the Cult of Ao. However, any such effort should build off the "Cult of Ao" article by Steven Schend that appeared in Polyhedron back in the day.
As for Unther, there's a lot going on there and I would love to see an adventure set in Messemprar forcing the PCs to navigate between unwanted allies and do-gooder foes. We stir the pot quite a bit in the upcoming Dragons of Faerun.
--Eric
Sorry Knight....I'll be good from now on.
I think some of the settings from the FR novels could very well be used to write some compelling FR adventures--if the novel characters are left out completely. Spine of the World and Tentowns would be an awesome place to adventure and Drizzt, the dwarf, the barbarian and the others don't need to appear. The thought of those ten little villages clustered together in Icewind Dale, defying nature and the wild beasts of the North, catching fish and carving scrimshaw while sleds take the goods to market always reminded me of the Icerigger novels I read so many years ago. I think some compelling adventures could be crafted there.
I liked the Cities of the Realms feature in Dragon--how about putting some FR backdrops into Dungeon as well? I enjoy the backdrops quite a bit because they are so adaptable and I'm sure the FR fans would drool over a Dungeon issue with an awesome FR backdrop in it....I know I still would because I'll just adapt it for my campaign.
One idea might be to put a Realms backdrop into Dragon and have a corresponding adventure in the same month's issue of Dungeon--written in such a way that the backdrop isn't necessary to run the adventure, but would be available for those DMs who get both magazines to enrich the Dungeon content.
Just a thought....
I really like that idea, but unfortunately that would only work with someone coordinating the adventure with Ed and Erik when they put out a Cities of the Realms article. Dispite that, I really like the idea . . .
Mr. Carevella . . . er, I mean, Dr. Johny (WKRP was one of my favorite TV series of all time), I have no problem if people don't think that even peripheral ties aren't a good idea, I get that. I was just a little frustrated that it seemed that people didn't quite get what I was saying.
If I have bad ideas, I want credit for the RIGHT bad idea, lol.
Oh, and don't forget Steven Schend when it comes to UnderMountain. Steven is the man (Eric and Ed are also, paradoxially, the man as well). And don't forget his first novel Blackstaff is out soon!
I really like that idea, but unfortunately that would only work with someone coordinating the adventure with Ed and Erik when they put out a Cities of the Realms article. Dispite that, I really like the idea . . .
It would take some forethought, but it really wouldn't take much coordinating. Have Mr. Greenwood write the backdrop, give the manuscript to an expert Realms author hand-picked by the editors (or to a random nameless person who just happened to submit a winning query for a Realms adventure around that same time frame), give them the manuscript and say
"write an adventure with this as the backdrop" or
"change your adventure to use this backdrop"
Of course, since my real world magazine editing experience is zero, it probably couldn't be this easy, but I also think it would be a very nice double-whammy...one adventure and one backdrop in the same month in two magazines and they could both stand on their own or complement each other--plus it might generate more sales....but I really don't know.