Well, I just began Hall of Harsh Reflections with my group, and I have to say, the ELs are WAY off. I mean WAY off. Allow me to give a brief backstory on my group.
First off, my group only has three people- a Paladin/Ranger/Tempest of Heironeous, a Cleric with a level of Barbarian, and a Savant (rogue-bard mix from Dragon Compendium). Also, there are no stat-increasing items in this campaign aside from the ones given out in the Adventure Path. However, as a trade-off, each character is quite powerful for their level (they used to 4d6-drop-lowest method for ability scores and made the lowest an 18, they've been rolling a different method for HP that was suggested on Wizards.com that basically nets them at very least half their maximum HP every level, I've been giving them a +1 to any ability score every level, and so far, as bonuses for roleplaying, I've given them 2 extra feats each and a +2 to one ability score of my choosing). However, we just ran through two of the first encounters in the Hall of Harsh Reflections, and both times it would have been a Total Party Kill had I not seriously swung things in their favor. Allow me to explain.
First off, one of the players (the savant- he's the closest to Ixiaxian's abilities, and the easiest to get alone) is a doppleganger. I talked to him about it beforehand, and he's fine with it- there's very little difference between his abilities and the dopplegangers (I beefed up Ixiaxian a bit to make him somewhat less crappy). Not only that, but the party was arrested and "Delivered into Danger" after the attack on Tarquin (which, really, they had no choice but submit to- the person accused of attacking him was the paladin, so he couldn't exactly start attacking the people accusing him of this crime- so he gave in, and asked the rest of the party to do so as well). So they woke up after a night at the city garrison, in cells, without any of their stuff.
This brings us to the first dilemma. They wake up, find a way to break themselves out (there's nobody with open lock, so I ruled that there was a lock and chain on the bars, which the barbarian/cleric was able to break with a very lucky strength check while raging). Once they got out, they immediately freed the two "prisoners" in the cell next to them, which were actually Dopplegangers. So a battle began between three unarmed and unarmored PCs against two armed and armored Dopplegangers with 4 levels of Fighter each.
My question is, "How the heck is this an EL 8?" The answer, of course, is that this is assuming that the PCs stroll through this chamber at their leisure, with all of their equipment. However, there's no mention whatsoever of what the EL should be if they happen to find themselves locked in the cells without any of their stuff- which, in my opinion, seems like the most likely way to get into the Sodden Hold. This battle, I realized after the surprise round, was going to end in all of the PCs dead. So, using my quick snap-judgment DM skills, I used the following round as a gauge for just how much I had to nerf the bad guys to keep the PCs alive, and I still thought it was hopeless for a little while.
First, I made Regim's and Martel's (or whatever their names are) longswords nonmagical, and nonmasterwork. That was just asking for it right there. Not only that, but I got rid of their secondary attacks. When a single attack was dealing (without power attack, mind you, because I KNEW that would kill them all, since none of the PCs had an AC above 14) 10-20% of the tank's HP, something was wrong. However, as a bit of a trade-off, I allowed them to get their slam as a secondary natural attack (giving it a -4 to the attack roll), as that would indicate that something wasn't right about them, as well as give them the number of attacks they were meant to have (though at a lower attack bonus and damage). Second, I divided their HP in half. For all but the last two rounds of the battle, nobody had even hit them, so this seemed like the least I could do.
Second, since I didn't catch from my most recent read-through of the adventure where their gear was hidden, I had previously placed (before the battle even began) three boxes along the far end of the room, one with their stuff, one with Gattel's, and one with that elven chick's stuff. I didn't realize until halfway through the battle that their stuff was supposed to be in the next room, but had I not made that mistake, they never would have killed them. I'm sure of it. Keep in mind, of course, that until they got their stuff, every single attack one of the PCs could have made would have provoked an Attack of Opportunity (as not many people take Improved Unarmed Strike), and at the beginning of battle I had been lenient by granting the PCs a couple improvised weapons they could use at a penalty (which made it even more impossible for them to hit the Doppleganger's 22 AC, but it was better than taking an attack of opportunity every time they attacked).
So, that battle was terrible, but in the end, since I only gave the baddies half of their normal HP, they were taken by the time the main fighter had been reduced to single-digit HPs. But that was the beginning of the terror.
Next, they went into the room with the planks over weapon-filled water and two Invisible Stalkers lurking around (after getting their stuff and healing up, of course). This room proved to be almost as fatal as the first, but only because the PCs were using the terrain as tactically as they could.
First, the Paladin walked across the room by himself, making sure it was safe for the others- and the two IS's attacked him, each dealing about as much damage as the guards in the room before (that is, a lot). Battle began, and he managed to get to one of the stable corners of the room (taking an attack of opportunity in the process). Had he not taken Ranger, a class that actually gave him ranks in Balance, he would have fallen into the water, and been easily made waste of. But with some lucky rolls, he made it to stable ground. The others, jumping around the sides rather than running across, made it to him within a couple rounds- and by the time they did, he had been reduced to a quarter of his hit points, and with his four attacks a round, had only hit one of them once. (That 50% miss chance is a pain, especially when you have to make a listen check just to be able to target the right square.) The Cleric/Barbarian did his best to heal, but as he couldn't tell where the IS's were half the time, he took attacks of opportunity, and lost half of his spells. I fudged one or two die rolls, and reduced their HP as well (from 60-something to 40 each), but the only reason they even possibly made it this far was that I didn't realize (having never used an Invisible Stalker) that they're large sized. With the reach that comes with it.
"No." I told myself. I couldn't do that to them. So, for that battle, the Invisible Stalkers were medium. I mentioned it to the party afterwards, and none of them knew how they were supposed to survive it. Invisible Enemies, with reach, multiple attacks, and each attack causing the party members to make a check or fall and take damage? I don't think so.
So, two TPK's narrowly avoided. Has anyone else had experiences like these?
Yep. HoHR is really a killer.
The Doppelganger fighters are really hard-hitters and they should probably be stripped of one level of fighter (it takes a Feat away - Weapon Specialization - and reduce their high HPs). You could also take their heavy steel shield away (how would they hide THAT in the cell??).
Later on they encounter three of these in a trapped labyrinth setting and this is also a very hard one.
The Invisible Stalkers were okay, but nevertheless managed to kill one character (the two-weapon wielding fighter/rogue), who was later on "raised". He just dropped in the negatives, but falling in the water filled with weapons below was the actual cause of death.
But this was nothing compared to the ambush by the three Octopins. These are really nasty critters. Their "slowing gaze" negated the power of the characters (the melee-characters are a Monk and the two-weapon wielding guy, so they really rely on getting their full-round action to place all their hits). I nearly got a TPK and it would actually would have been one if I had not forgotten about the Octopins' "Rend" ability.
Finally the advanced Octopin is really out of reach for a ECL 8 group and I even wonder how an ECL 10 would fare. With a +19 melee (2d6+8), it can easily place two hits and do an average of 30 dmg + its Rend ability. It can very easily take down your average fighter lvl 8 in one or two rounds (counting it rends at least once and your fighter has the average HP of 64, with a Con of 14 or 15).
Actually Zyrxog could turn out to be quite anti-climatic: the players know they will face a Mind-Flayer and have the time to prepare to encounter one (prepare the right spells, protection, etc.)... He will probably be an easier pick than the advance Octopin.
Bocklin
Yep. HoHR is really a killer.
Bocklin
Our near TPK in this module came in the cells area. The Dopplegangers had the party in crampt quarters with nowhere to maneuver. In many ways, this was just a foreshadowing of the real TPK that came under similar circumstances by similar foes (Pitchblade).
Yeah, I am just about to run this module and I must say it looks a little tough, and quickly put together... nevertheless it really feels like it could be incredibly fun.. if some minor things were fixed.
Here is what I am going to change,
My party is going to meet Filge at a bar as a waiter (stole this from a past thread). He is going to tell them how he has changed and thanks them for their mercy in WC.
After they are framed, they will most likely end up arrested, and eventually brought to sodden hold (this is something I would like to fix... it seems kinda weird that the gaurds would just drop em off here, but Ill stay with this unless anyone else has a better idea?)
Now, the real weird thing is this, so these clones bribe the gaurd to bring helpless prisoners to their place, how can it be believable that the helpless prisoners escape and overpower the clones. It is just kind of silly.
What would make it a little more believable is that the PC's have some help from Filge, and his undead minions. I invision something like the PC's locked in a cell, and a pile of bones in the corner animating, walking to the door of the jail and after fidgeting to get the lock open, in walks filge. Now 3-4 helpless PC's + 1 necromancer with some undead, maybe they can overpower the clones.
Plus this story idea lets them see an evil character struggling to become good.
What do you think? I am currently looking for an explanation from Filge on how he new they were there? Divination magic perhaps... I need something so that they do not suspect him of further wrong doing.
Also another problem with this adventure, what if the party has to fight doppelgangers before the hall of deception (where the trickery is revealed...) What is the PC/doppelganger supposed to do? Attack his comrades? I just looked in the adventure and it seems like it is very likely they will meet doppelgangers BEFORE freeing the PC in this adventure... jeez I need a rewrite here :)
I guess a lot depends on the character classes in your group. My characters were also thrown in the doppleganger prison without their gear, and separated. The cleric woke up first, but with no ranks in escape artist, and insufficient strength to break free of the manacles there was little he could do.
The rogue woke up next, picked the lock on the cell door, and then was promptly attacked and subdued by the two doppelganger "prisoners" (I didn't change them at all except that I removed their heavy steel shields. I can buy the concealed longswords, but there is no way you could masquerade as a prisoner with a heavy steel shield.)
And then the druid woke up. The priest told her about the disguised guards. One wild shape (to get out of the manacles) and 2 summon nature's ally spells later and the doppelgangers were toast.
The IS were tougher for them, but they managed to win thanks to the power that is glitterdust.
And then the druid woke up. The priest told her about the disguised guards. One wild shape (to get out of the manacles) and 2 summon nature's ally spells later and the doppelgangers were toast.
That brings up a side note...
I always thought that druids needed a focus to cast spells? Mages need their books, priests need their holy symbol, don't the druids need some kinda leaf or something? I have recently been enforcing this rule in my campaigns because I have been seeing a lot of players shy away from the wizard due to it being seen as less powerfull/flexible then the preist or druid.
Does this idea have no support from official rules?
I always thought that druids needed a focus to cast spells? Mages need their books, priests need their holy symbol, don't the druids need some kinda leaf or something? I have recently been enforcing this rule in my campaigns because I have been seeing a lot of players shy away from the wizard due to it being seen as less powerfull/flexible then the preist or druid.
Does this idea have no support from official rules?
PH 174. A sprig of Mistletoe or Holly. Of course, if I were DM of the above scenario, I'd probably say that joe doppleganger doesn't necessarily know that the leaves in the druid's pocket have such power, and thus would not have bothered to confiscate them. Unless, of course, I were actually trying to prevent my party from escaping at all costs. Since their escape is what makes this adventure interesting (as opposed to having them killed while helpless and their bodies dumped into the Greyhawk sewer), in this case I'd leave the party a few possibilities to be exploited.
Unless, of course, I were actually trying to prevent my party from escaping at all costs. Since their escape is what makes this adventure interesting (as opposed to having them killed while helpless and their bodies dumped into the Greyhawk sewer), in this case I'd leave the party a few possibilities to be exploited.
Well this is a matter for another thread/forum but here is what ill say to that. Its not that I want to hinder my party, I just want to be realistic and fair to all the classes. Someone is as likely to suspect a book as being something you should take away from a wizard, as he would be to suspect leaves from a druid.
I have never played in a campaign as a wizard and not had a session or two where I wasnt spelless because of the loss of my spellbook. In contrast I have sometimes seen the cleric be troubled because of this but never have I seen or heard of the druid being affected in this way. Now why is this a problem?
Well because the Druid and the Cleric are very powerfull classes w/o NPC's forgetting their weaknesses. With there hitpoints, attacks, abilities (turning/shapechange) and spells that are increasingly DAMN close to a wizard in damage output, I am finding it hard to see why anyone would play a straight wizard (aside from just the spirit of roleplaying but that tends to not be enough when Mr. Druid is shape changing with high hitpoints, heals, ok attacks, spells, and 1 last thing I guess now he can never lose his spells!)
Hah, so thats my rant :) I played in a few campaigns where druids/clerics never had to worry about things like focuses, one DM even said they didn't have to MEMORIZE there spells, sort of like a sorceror. I could just see my wizard player FUMING if I took away his spell book and conveniently forgot to take away the druids focus... I am actually debating whether or not to let my druid shapechange when he is bound, don't abilities like that require hand movements? What would someone do if he knew the dangers of a druid and wanted to bind him so that he could not shapechange?
First off, Druids only need a Divine Focus (mistletoe and holly) to cast spells that need a Divine Focus. Second, Wild Shape doesn't require a focus, nor does it require their hands to be free. There's nothing stopping a druid from using the majority of its abilities.
However, I still think there's a huge problem with that encounter. My group are three battle-oriented classes, with uber stats, and they got completely pummeled to near death, and would have been killed had I not seriously maimed the enemies. Was it supposed to go this way?
The spell in question, summon nature's ally, does require a DF.
Wild shape is a supernatural ability. Neither supernatural abilities nor spell-like abilities require anything but a mental action (PH 180).
My players were mighty upset one time when a bad-guy NPC druid they had captured escaped from prison in the form of a serpent before he could be tried--especially because they could never be sure for ever after that a given wild animal was not this bad-guy observing them. They ended up moving to a new region of the campaign world entirely to escape him.
As for the imprisoned and gear confiscated scenario--there are always scenarios that certain classes are better prepared to deal with than others. Monks and druids are in the best position to save themselves in this one, and therefore to save the party's bacon. Personally, if I'm playing the wizard, I'm happy to have someone save my bacon--because there will certainly come a time when I have an opportunity to return the favor--whether it's casting magic weapon to make that player's weapon able to damage that nasty demon or throwing a dazzling fireball or chain lightning and taking out a big bunch of enemies at once. Anyone who expects to have the first opportunity to save the day in every encounter, and is disappointed when s/he can't, isn't very team oriented, I'd say. Part of playing this game, I think, is learning the lesson that we all have some strengths and some weaknesses, and that we have to use the gifts we're given, be clever (and cooperative) to overcome our weaknesses, and be gracious about receiving help from others when it is needed.
Wowza.....this is really odd, because i have essentially normal characters in my party, i didn't help them at all, and they did just fine in that adventure.........odd.......maybe i'm blessed with good players.
Question to Dungeon staff: who determines details of an adventure's encounters, the writer or the magazine?
Despite a collection of different authors, Age of Worms adventures continue to maintain a high lethality level (with the arguable exception of Blackwall Keep) -- so I'm curious :)
Jack