As DMs, what do y'all do when the party rogue says "I search every 5' square of the room by taking 20."? Or when she says "I search the door for traps with a take 20."?
As DMs, what do y'all do when the party rogue says "I search every 5' square of the room by taking 20."? Or when she says "I search the door for traps with a take 20."?
I ask the others what they do while he search (2 minutes).
Well, the simplest answer is to start rolling lots of random encounters. Taking 20 takes 2 minutes. A 30x30 room would take over an hour to search this way. That's lots of time for the bad guys to mount one heck of a nasty offensive against the party.
Taking 20 on trap checks isn't quite so bad. I just roll a random encounter chance every time the player does it.
As DMs, what do y'all do when the party rogue says "I search every 5' square of the room by taking 20."?
Depends on the size of the room, but...
Or when she says "I search the door for traps with a take 20."?
Call for a Reflex save from the Search-happy player, then reach for your damage dice. Taking 20 only works if there is no danger involved. If there ARE any traps on a particular door, taking 20 will surely set them ALL off.
Taking 20
When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.
Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.
Emphasis mine.
As others have said, taking 20 to search a room takes 2 minutes per 5 ft. cube. Plenty of time to initiate random encounters, time-based traps, or have the goblins in the next room finish up their game of bones and refortify their positions.
Also, taking 20 does not assure success. If a trap has a higher DC than 20 + the rogue's search modifier, the character cannot find that trap. He can, however, set it off. >:-)
Of course, that being said, be sure to reward such a player every now and then with hidden treasure as well.
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As DMs, what do y'all do when the party rogue says "I search every 5' square of the room by taking 20."?Depends on the size of the room, but...
Or when she says "I search the door for traps with a take 20."?Call for a Reflex save from the Search-happy player, then reach for your damage dice. Taking 20 only works if there is no danger involved. If there ARE any traps on a particular door, taking 20 will surely set them ALL off.
Taking 20
When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.
Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.
Emphasis mine.
As others have said, taking 20 to search a room takes 2 minutes per 5 ft. cube. Plenty of time to initiate random encounters, time-based traps, or have the goblins in the next room finish up their game of bones and refortify their positions.
Also, taking 20 does not assure success. If a trap has a higher DC than 20 + the rogue's search modifier, the character cannot find that trap. He can, however, set it off. >:-)
Of course, that being said, be sure to reward such a player every now and...
A rogue searching for traps by taking 20 does not automatically set off a trap. A rogue can take 20 to find a trap on a door or anywhere else. They cannot, however, take 20 to disarm said trap. Failure to disarm a trap can set it off. Failure to find one does not set it off unless the trap goes off due to contact and the rogue is specifically making contact with the trapped item (electrified door would be a good example). Searches are a usually a detailed VISUAL search to see the tip of the poison needle inside the keyhole, or the faint outline of the pit. A rogue does not need to enter a 5' square to search it for traps, just be adjacent to it. If a player has the time, let 'em search. Maybe the problem is that someone is giving the party a reason to be cautious of traps and doesn't like the precautions that the party is now taking. After clearing a dungeon my party always takes 20 to search the whole thing because we don't want to miss anything important (hidden rooms, treasure, traps, carvings of import, etc.). If the DM gives the party a reason to need to search alot then its the DM's fault that they search so often and he/she needs to understand that, and allow for that.
Goggles of minute seeing help with search checks because it is a visual search, not blind groping. Failing a search check doesn't set off a trap, the action afterwards does (i.e. opening the door or crossing over the section of hallway that is trapped)
FH
Taking 20 improves the character's chance of success, but also ensures numerous failures along the way. You should remind the player that if there is a trap that could be set off by touching, seeing, or just being in some area, there is a very good chance of it being triggered because of this action. 20 times as long and 20 more chances of making a mistake.
Example: Symbol of Death. The character searches a wall covered in a curtain taking 20. He carefully pulls the curtain aside, using a 10 foot pole no less, "to be extra careful" and is successful in uncovering the Symbol inscribed on the wall behind it. Yep, he found the trap, but more importantly, he SAW THE TRAP, which in this case was the triggering event to activate the symbol. One failed Fort save later, and bye, bye rogue. You're dead.
To answer the original post more specifically, I usually make a random encounter roll and ask the other players what their characters are doing. You'd be surprised how much trouble bored PCs can get in to while the party rogue is trying to make things safe for them. It's an amusing irony ;)
Thanks FH, I had thought that Search doesn't trigger traps. Would any DMs have anything against reducing XP for defeating a trap by taking 20 on Search? Perhaps 50% XP?
Thanks for the input, all.
TS
Thanks FH, I had thought that Search doesn't trigger traps. Would any DMs have anything against reducing XP for defeating a trap by taking 20 on Search? Perhaps 50% XP?
Thanks for the input, all.
TS
Never jip your players out of XP because they were smart, resourceful, or lucky in dealing with a challenge. This is why they put all of those points into specific skills like Search or Disable Device and spend their hard earned gold on things to improve these abilities or help them survive rough encounters. Reward them properly when these decisions pay off.
When tempted to do so, ask yourself this question: Was this trap too easy? If so, was it because of mistakes I made as DM or was it because the players handled it well and were prepared to handle it?
As a rule, always err on the side of the players and be prepared to provide a more challenging trap in the future without pitting them against a trap with a CR that is too high for the party. The latter is a weakness in many DMs that I strongly urge not to get in the habit of doing. Instead, try to be more clever about your traps and keep the players guessing, perhaps hinting at a certain theme of traps and tossing a couple decoys at them that lull them into a false sense of confidence and then luring them into the "real" trap.
Here are a couple of examples I've used in my own campaign in recent sessions while running Maure Castle.
In fighting an ogre magi, my PCs had wounded the creature pretty effectively in the initial couple rounds of exchanging blows and spells. It wisely turned itself invisible and taunted them into chasing it into another adjacent area where a very nasty iron golem awaited to attack anyone that dared set fet on the massive throne and platform area it occupied. The ogre was well aware of this and used it to advanaage.
Three of the PCs were under fly spells and the ogre magi had used dispel magic on them once already. It lured them all the way over to the golem's throne and them dispelled two of the PCs' fly spells dropping them onto the stand and triggering the golem to attack. A nice little trap, yes?
Using the same example of Maure Castle, my group had returned to the 2nd level where they had just recently lost some of their number to a Symbol of Death. Keenly aware now of the danger of instant death effects, they had prepared to face more of this by buffing up the party cleric with death ward scrolls and spells. Carefully approaching a corner, the party rogue spotted some little bits of powdered gem on the ground just around the way and thought it was suspicious. He told the party cleric who recognized the gem dust as a component for the various Symbol traps.
The rogue and other party members moved a safe distance back and the party cleric cast death ward then rounded the corner to see the Symbol of... Insanity trap on the wall. Failed save and... well, you get the idea.
Never jip your players out of XP because they were smart, resourceful, or lucky in dealing with a challenge. This is why they put all of those points into specific skills like Search or Disable Device and spend their hard earned gold on things to improve these abilities or help them survive rough encounters. Reward them properly when these decisions pay off.When tempted to do so, ask yourself this question: Was this trap too easy? If so, was it because of mistakes I made as DM or was it because the players handled it well and were prepared to handle it?
As a rule, always err on the side of the players and be prepared to provide a more challenging trap in the future without pitting them against a trap with a CR that is too high for the party. The latter is a weakness in many DMs that I strongly urge not to get in the habit of doing. Instead, try to be more clever about your traps and keep the players guessing, perhaps hinting at a certain theme of traps and tossing a couple decoys at them that lull them into a false sense of confidence and then luring them into the "real" trap.
I just took a close look at the Search DCs of traps in DMG in relation to the search bonus that a rogue of similar level is likely to have. For a lot of traps (escpecially magic ones) it appears that a rogue is SUPPOSED to take 20 unless he is in the habit of continually rolling 15+ on d20s.
Mental note taken,
TS out.
When my players take 20, I usually tell them "congratulations for playing smart". Taking 20 on a search does not set of (most) traps. It does take time, and I'd keep track of that time, but I don't see any reason to penalize the characters for playing smart.
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I just took a close look at the Search DCs of traps in DMG in relation to the search bonus that a rogue of similar level is likely to have. For a lot of traps (escpecially magic ones) it appears that a rogue is SUPPOSED to take 20 unless he is in the habit of continually rolling 15+ on d20s.Mental note taken,
TS out.
Yeah, I noticed that also and it frustrates me that no matter how many times you level up you always are the same power compared to the DC's of anything going on around you. A fighter maxes out his climb skill and he can be great at climbing but a rogue is always barely sufficient to his tasks. Traps should be easier to find when levels are gained not exactly the same level after level. Maybe an occasional uber-trap or awesomely concealed trap but not every single one the same DC. My 2
FH
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After monthes of showing up to sessions and leveling up my rogue, it would be nice to be able to unlock a friggin' door a little easier sometimes. I wouldn't mind if 10% of the locks were of the rogue's level DC, but why would the BBEG spend exhorbant amounts of money on the highest quality locks for EVERY room in the castle. Why would he spend 300,000 gps on traps and for that matter how did that 10th level NPC come up with 300,000 gps in the first place after buying all his gear?
I just think that realistically(for a fantasy game, no less!) most locks and traps would be of the cr 1/2 to cr 4 range. A hard lock on the BBEG's bedroom that has a bastard trap is not only acceptable but required, however, why would every henchman's room have the same damn lock? Just seems ridiculous to me and frustrating at times that EVERY SINGLE LOCK IS JUST AS HARD AS THE LAST ONE!!! Like I stated, Climb DC's only vary according to the terrain. Locks/Traps should do that also with the exceptions of exceptional areas.
FH
Classic example of a trap: Pressure plate flagstone that the rogue steps on when he's looking for traps. Also, taking 20, to me, means taking every means to search an area - not just peering around. If all you did was use your eyes, how would you find the key hidden at the bottom of the pile of rubble? Without actually interacting with the area to be searched, I can't see a player getting a result higher than 10 total for Search.
I totally agree with this (your entire post, really). I stock my adventures with all manner and level of challenges and minions. I hate when BBEG's version of "peons" are his endless supply of Bbn6 half-fiend Orcs. Where do they all come from? I'd rather give him a tribe of normal War1 orcs with a few sergeants, champions and a chieftain thrown in at a wide variety of levels.Players also need the satisfaction of the easy win from time to time as a reward for making it to higher levels, and this approach gives them an ever-increasing level of challenge as sergeants then champions marshal their forces as the PCs further invade the "dungeon".
Getting back on-topic, mixing it up will also get the Players used to carving through minions and yawning when they encounter run-of-the-mill traps. You'll find less of the constant "take-20" business happening and can have a little fun when they unexpectedly stumble upon something more "interesting".
Rez
I agree with the easy win concept up to a point - that said your still spending valauble game time on what anounts to a throw away encounter. I'd tend to parcel out the really easy stuff in limited amounts. No one wants to show up to the game and realize they are board after three hours because there is nothing challanging at all so far.
Classic example of a trap: Pressure plate flagstone that the rogue steps on when he's looking for traps. Also, taking 20, to me, means taking every means to search an area - not just peering around. If all you did was use your eyes, how would you find the key hidden at the bottom of the pile of rubble? Without actually interacting with the area to be searched, I can't see a player getting a result higher than 10 total for Search.
Well the Search skill says 'you generally must be within 10 feet' to do a Search - so I'd think most of the time you could just do it visually but that 'generally' leaves a lot of stones unturned. Obvously lifting a painting requires that you be right beside the paintings etc.
Generally speaking in my game I'll make the rogue clerify what he means by taking 20. Is this a really good visual search or is he lifting everything up, trying to pry possibly loose stones with a dagger etc. The player can then decide what he wants his character to do.
I'll also point out that taking 20 is really just supposed to be a time saver for everyone. Without it the players could still search every 5' square 20 times they - you'd just have to do all that rolling. Generally speaking I think its a pretty good rule - though maybe some kind of uber search per room rule with a table and a die roll might feel more satisfying all around. Something that might throw these searches some more change ups instead of having it always be the same thing. Obvously a good Search skill and a Rogue would provide significant bonus to the roll.
I'll also point out that taking 20 is really just supposed to be a time saver for everyone. Without it the players could still search every 5' square 20 times they - you'd just have to do all that rolling.
Just to clarify - I agree with you there. My own Rule 0 is not "The DM is always right," it's "Everyone has fun." The DM can be right all he wants, but if the players aren't having fun, it's time for a little group discussion.
Having the character clarify what he means by taking 20 is great thinking on your part. I'll be sure to keep that in mind when I run my game tomorrow.
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Classic example of a trap: Pressure plate flagstone that the rogue steps on when he's looking for traps. Also, taking 20, to me, means taking every means to search an area - not just peering around. If all you did was use your eyes, how would you find the key hidden at the bottom of the pile of rubble? Without actually interacting with the area to be searched, I can't see a player getting a result higher than 10 total for Search.
I always assumed that the rogue would examine an area visual and edge up to it, maybe prodding with his dagger or poking the cracks in the stone with a pole/tool of somesort way before stepping into the 5'square, otherwise every search would involve the character entering the square and triggering the trap. Fighters/barbarians would be better trap finders in that situation due to hit points. I would never play a rogue in a game where I can't take 20 to search because its only a matter of time before the characters tell me to take the lead because of giving them a false sense of security (nope, no traps here, grab the door Sir Meatshield) which would lead to my d6 of hit points being killed. Pressure plate, yeah he would notice the edges of the trap with his "nose to the floor inspection" while taking 20. To disarm it he would be trying to jam it or jimmy it which could set it off, which is why you can't take 20 to disarm a trap.
If you want to have a character tell you how exactly he is going to search, then your fighter characters should tell you the stance they are in while fighting and how exactly they climb a wall, or the Alchemist in the party should tell you which chemicals he is mixing to make an oil. I am not a rogue, to have me describe the exact actions of a rogue would not reflect what a rogue of more than 2nd level would know naturally. You are guaranteeing that the player in question fails because he didn't study up on CSI type searching or Lockpicking 101. We play a part but Skill checks are there to reflect PC knowledge, not player knowledge. If a Ranger says "I do a survival check to forage for food" we don't ask him if he knows the difference between good and bad mushrooms, thats something his character knows. I can't pick a lock in real life, and I wouldn't know the proper means for searching for and disarming a trap. My PC would though, me trying to describe it in detail is bound to be a failure.FH
As DMs, what do y'all do when the party rogue says "I search every 5' square of the room by taking 20."? Or when she says "I search the door for traps with a take 20."?
Laugh.
As DMs, what do y'all do when the party rogue says "I search every 5' square of the room by taking 20."? Or when she says "I search the door for traps with a take 20."?
Laugh.
Then I wait for him/her to say something sensible.
If you want to have a character tell you how exactly he is going to search, then your fighter characters should tell you the stance they are in while fighting and how exactly they climb a wall, or the Alchemist in the party should tell you which chemicals he is mixing to make an oil. I am not a rogue, to have me describe the exact actions of a rogue would not reflect what a rogue of more than 2nd level would know naturally. You are guaranteeing that the player in question fails because he didn't study up on CSI type searching or Lockpicking 101. We play a part but Skill checks are there to reflect PC knowledge, not...
I'll note that knowing something about wether the rogue is moving the furniture and such is usually not about a trap at all. Quick off the top of my head examply might have to deal with stealth. I know that there is a guard in a nearby room thats snoozing. A quite thief doing a visual check has little chance of awakening him - but if your moving the furniture around then he's got some chance to notice.
I'm not asking the thief exactly how he does his job - I assume he does it to the best of his ability all the time - see even if he says he's being moving the furniture I assume he is looking very closely at it before moving things around and if its rigged he'll likely catch that before it ever goes off. But if a stream runs through the middle of the room there are legitimate reasons why I need to know if he went into the stream or not and they may have nothing to do with finding a trap.
I don't insist that a fighter tells me exactly how he is fighting but I'd like to know what weapon he's using as it makes a difference if he's using a crossbow or a sword.
As DMs, what do y'all do when the party rogue says "I search every 5' square of the room by taking 20."? Or when she says "I search the door for traps with a take 20."?Laugh.Then I wait for him/her to say something sensible.
I don't follow why thats not sensible - its very clear in the rules you can do it. Obvously if the room is huge its going to take quite a while but most rooms are not usually that big.
It's been said before, but...
A player can always take a 20 on a search check (if she has the time and there is no direct negative consequence for failure). It's the disarming of a trap that one cannot take a 20 on.
They can search all they want. As a DM it's your responsibility to make it more interesting. If they've got oodles of time to methodically search every closet and clothes hamper then throw a few skeletons or ragamuffins in there.
One of my favorite tactics is to have the bad guys set off the traps themselves (especially with effects that do not harm them but affect the good guys).
Other "solutions:"
Place time limitations on them so that they don't have hours to search every room.
Have the "Langoliers" come to devour those pc's who are wasting time - especially those that aren't searching.
Have an NPC or PC get bored with the searching and tromp about and open doors.
I just took a close look at the Search DCs of traps in DMG in relation to the search bonus that a rogue of similar level is likely to have. For a lot of traps (escpecially magic ones) it appears that a rogue is SUPPOSED to take 20 unless he is in the habit of continually rolling 15+ on d20s.
Yes. Good job! I only wish more people were able to understand this. DM hostility towards the Take 10/20 rules is perhaps my biggest pet peeve.
Then I wait for him/her to say something sensible.
Like, "I open the scary-looking door without searching for traps"?
Or, "Hand me that enormous bag of dice, please. I'm actually going to roll 20 Search checks in a row"?
Yeah. That's really sensible.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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There was a good design and development article about traps the other day on the wizards site which is worth looking at. Basically, the problem with traps is that they aren't any fun. Either you spend a stupid amount of resources trying to find them (i.e., taking 20 and searching everywhere) or you get hit by them for failing to do so. A good trap is one that challenges the PC's to find a way to overcome it; not one that punishes them when they least expect it.
Traps are also a pain in that they are one of the few challenges that requires one, and only one, specific class (the rogue) to overcome. Sure, a cleric can find traps, but a rogue is required to disarm the majority of traps.
I find that most traps slow down gameplay and don't provide enough fun to justify their existence.
As my game stands now, the group's only rogue is an NPC. They have a ranger with Search but I don't think he realizes that only rogues can find DC 20+ traps, as he is always the first to say "I search the door for traps." So far I've had the rogue compete with him but not taking 20 (she's impatient). Maybe she should get bored of this and let him do all the trap searching for a while...
TS
I have no problem with the take 10/20.
My problem is with Search, in general. It seems that characters only touch something while searching if it is beneficial. (Maybe it is with players who manipulate things and make me implement time consuming table rules)
I had to institute a "You say it or you did not do it," rule. That way if something was hidden behind/beneath than it would not be found by a VISUAL search. Also stops a lot of, "I was right behind him when the BBEG stepped out and surprised the rogue," when the player said no such thing prior.
Mmmm, Skullcrusher Ogre with a nice juicy rogue all over his big nasty morningstar. Tumble away from that, bugsplat.