I like the craft feats and I love to have characters that build things on a regular basis. It's cool.
But I can't help but look at the skill with a little scrutiny.
My sorcerer cannot become diplomatic because that would take to much time away from his spellcasting practice and he wouldn't be as effective.
However building houses is another matter and he can do that just fine.
I am not looking to change any skill lists or remove craft from the lists I was just wondering how you guys deal with this. This is the kind of thing that gives me aneurism *if this is spelled wrong blame my math teacher*
I'm not too fond of this skill either. Knowledge, and Profession as well. I don't know, they're just too vague for my tastes.
Ultradan
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I actually like the craft skills but I think that some Profession and Craft skills should be combined. I am playing a Dwarven lockmaker/smith and I think Profession:locksmith and craft:lockmaking could be combined because they are very similar. I understand that craft has to do with making something and profession is the running of that business but come on. +2 synergy bonus or not, it sucks to sink skill points in to a skill like that so my income can go up. 3.5 makes things harder than it needs to. I also hate that DC's increase every level to match skill pts. It's almost like you didn't gain anything each level. Wow I keep having to take 20 to pick a lock, every freakin' level. No matter how many points I sink into a skill. Oh well, little off topic sorry...
FH
I agree that some the descriptions of these skills are quite vague. This can be frustrating and therefore make them a pain in the butt for DM's and players alike. I suggest taking a look at Rich Burlew's discussion of some of these skills on the Giant in the Playground website.
As for the Craft skill I always give my starting PC's 4 levels of a Craft or Profession skill. It lends itself to the idea that these people were NOT bred to be adventurers, they've come from real jobs with real experience.
It also comes in handy when someone is trying to retre a character. IT gives the character something to fall back on. Done delving in Dungeons, time to open up a shop.
I use craft quite often in my campaigns as it is useful in different environments.
One scenario I ran had the PCs succumbing to non-lethal damage in the middle of a snowstorm. They needed to build a shelter, so I had them make a Survival check to find a suitable spot and then make craft checks to actually build it. The better it was built, the less damage they took.
I also use this take on the skill when players want to "dig in" when surrounded or expecting to be attacked. Craft can be used to build makeshift barricades and traps etc. All this can serve to aid the PCs and give them an advantage over difficult foes.
Sometimes though it feels like the party are a fantasy version of the A-Team. Cue rousing music: DA-DA-DA-DAAAA, DA-DA-DAAAA...
I love craft. Every PC I make has a couple ranks in craft weapon or armour representing their training and ability to take care of their weapons and armour.
As for profession I think that it is a little more limited in its applications. However I am introducing significant downtime into my new campaign so all PCs have to have a profession in order to earn enough money to live.
IMO I have been toying with an advanced synergy between craft and profession. I was thinking of taking half of the profession modifier and adding it to any craft checks made. Reason being that if you know how to run a good weaponsmithing shop (and have lackies?) then you should be more efficient (not necessarily better) when it comes to making your own weapon and you should be able to make it faster.
Anyway that is just my opinion anyone have other options they have used for craft/profession issues?
igi
Anyway that is just my opinion anyone have other options they have used for craft/profession issues?
igi
I do not have my PHB on hand but I'm pretty sure it says you can use craft skills to make a living like a proffession skill but I think they get less money.
I do not have my PHB on hand but I'm pretty sure it says you can use craft skills to make a living like a proffession skill but I think they get less money.
Nope. They work pretty much exactly the same way.
Frankly, I have no problem with Craft and Profession as they currently exist, and I don't really understand why some others do (except that those people don't seem to "get" what the skills are intended to represent). Use Profession when your job is to provide a service; use Craft when your job is to create something tangible. There are a few rare exceptions where it may be more complicated than that, but basically that's all there is to it.
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Frankly, I have no problem with Craft and Profession as they currently exist.
I tend to agree with you, Vegepygmy... I like them, and I love(!) Knowledge skills. A lot of times, the particular Craft/Profession skills my PCs have tend to originate in their backstory and indicate what they did prior to "taking up the life" of adventure. I also think that there should be some synergy possiblity between Craft and Proffession.
Hraftar Cro, my Chaos Mage, was trained as a ship's navigator (Profession) and he uses that knowledge to make detailed, accurate, and attractive maps (Craft: calligraphy). Now, he's a studly adventurer and doesn't spend as much time on the ships as he would like, but he still has those skills and can, in downtime, craft stunning works that fetch a good price (or ingratiate him with the powers that be...presenting the Mayor with a fine map of the town, suitible for hanging in his office or town hall).
Yeah, they are broad catagories and are a bit vague, but I think it's that way out of necessity... If you were to look at all the various crafts or professions that might be applicable to a fantasy world, it would be insanely cumbersome (what is the DC for a charcoal maker to make pile of charcoal? Is it more or less than a crone making a apple-head doll for the grand-babies?)
One DM I played with gave us 2 'character development' skill points that couldn't be used for what are considered critical skills (spot, listen, escape artist, survival, etc.) They had to be used on skills Craft, Profession, Perform (non-bards!), and Knowledge that wasn't directly related to our characters (no K: arcana for mages or K: religion for clerics). He mostly wanted us to think about what our characters were like when they were home or after they were retired. (The fighter studying Profession: Brewing to open his bar after he hung up his sword)
I just looked at my original post and realized i said I like craft feats but not the skill, not my intent.
I meant to say that I like craft skills, I like playing characters that can build things.
My problem is in the fact that all classes get it as a class skill. Class skills are skills that are in some way related, or in some cases central to the core concept of the class and so they can become very profecient in them without taking extra time away from their other class functions and training. Paladinds are well versed in civalry and courtship as an intergral part of their code of conduct so they can be great diplomats without having to sacrifice enhancing their other abilities. This is the logic behind all class skills and non-class skills to the best of my understanding. I however have a hard time seeing the constuction of anything as going hand in hand with any classes skills and training. Therefore I am not concerned with craft skills, I like them, but why craft skills are class skills.
Maybe they did this before they started adventuring of whatever and that is a good idea and builds a good storyline but it does not explain why they can advance their bridge building skills along with their weapon training or magical practice.
I however do not want to change anything about the skills because I like them and I love to see them get used in an unlikely situation. But it irks me that they seem to be an exception to the class skill/non class skill system
Director of Narrative
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I love Craft skills as a way to bring flavor to a character and to represent the ability to repair and better use certain items. The only thing I dislike about Craft skills is the crafting times. As someone who actually has made and sold things (glassblowing, leatherworking, painting, sculpting, jewelry making) I can tell you that I can make more than what the book says I can in a certain span of time. The good thing is that with an adventuring party they rarely have the time to take a break saving the world to sit down and pound out a breastplate, but they sure can fix/resize one.
I'm not too fond of this skill either. Knowledge, and Profession as well. I don't know, they're just too vague for my tastes.
I think if you are goiong to use those skills (craft and profession - or even non-listed knowldedge skills) it is the responsibility of the player to figure out what that means, and do a short write up for the approval of the DM.
I was took profession soldier - and explained that it gave me a chance to:
Identify unit insigna and rank of individuals in military units
Would know how to set and ambush at advantage
Diplomacy bonus in - certain situations
Intimidate bonus in certain situations
Could organize individuals for greater efficiency - in certain situations
Identify styles of equipment - to determine, race, style of unit, level of repair, training etc.
DM liked it and gave me opportunities to use it.
And (I think) everyone at the table liked the flavor it brought to the game. ITs only flaw really was sometimes when I would get a little silly at table and start barking liking and angry Drill Sergeant - or imitate my old ones.
The only skill most fighters take is armor/weaponsmithing to me thats silly unless it fits with your personal character history. Basic care and maintenance of equipment is vastly different from making equipment.
I took craft vitner once as part of the story and my character and again wrote up what that meant and as result the DM found ways to work it in - determining quality of soil health of vines, quality of wine served, etc.
In the end though the use of such skills is going to be based on the invest of the character to define them and and the DM's willingness to indcorporate them. The crafts/professions listed are laid out IMO to provide an example for those who want richer characters and campaign worlds. They are intentionally vague so that the player can create them.
I took profession soldier
What I find funny about this is that Fighters do not have Profession as a class skill - that is, apparently Wizards make better soldiers than Fighters...
What I find funny about this is that Fighters do not have Profession as a class skill - that is, apparently Wizards make better soldiers than Fighters...
Not better soldiers. Better-paid soldiers.
Which makes perfect sense, actually. Much like our modern military officers are typically college graduates and paid better than the enlisted "grunts," I can envision a class of educated, commissioned "battle wizards" employed by armies receiving more pay and perks.
The primary use of the Profession skill is to make money. Allowing it to be used for things like recognizing insignia and gaining circumstance/synergy bonuses on other skill checks (while entirely reasonable, IMO) is definitely "house rules" territory.
Frankly, I have no problem with Craft and Profession as they currently exist, and I don't really understand why some others do (except that those people don't seem to "get" what the skills are intended to represent). Use Profession when your job is to provide a service; use Craft when your job is to create something tangible. There are a few rare exceptions where it may be more complicated than that, but basically that's all there is to it.
Yes I get the fact that one makes money and one makes things. But that begs the following question: if I have 10 ranks in Profession armoursmith and 1 rank in Craft armoursmith and I want to make a suit of chainmail why could I not just use a craft roll modified by profession? I mean if I am that good at my profession why wouldn't I be able to make stuff easier?
And for that matter when I make the profession roll and I get X gp a week couldn't I say that the X gp is actually X gp worth of a chain shirt?
I just reread the profession description...
it says something along the lines of: professions are usually jobs that call on a wide range of skills eg. brewer, innkeeper, sailor, whereas craft is something more specific.
Professions are typically more service industry jobs whilst crafts are more manufacturing sector jobs.
So, if you want you PC to work with weapons and armour take craft and not profession. Then use the craft rules to work out how much money they make instead of profession. Typically they would be comissioned to make a specific item and get paid at the end of the month when it is finished. Yeah, it takes forever to make anything, you only make check*DC sp per week. Therefore a roll of 15 to make a chain shirt takes 4 weeks to complete and you only earn 100gp - materials (33gp) so 67 gp for a month. Actually that is not too bad a living I suppose. A profession check of 15 would only net you (15*4)/2 = 30 gp a month.
Anyway I ramble,
igi
Yes I get the fact that one makes money and one makes things. But that begs the following question: if I have 10 ranks in Profession armoursmith and 1 rank in Craft armoursmith and I want to make a suit of chainmail why could I not just use a craft roll modified by profession? I mean if I am that good at my profession why wouldn't I be able to make stuff easier?
Frankly, I have no problem with Craft and Profession as they currently exist, and I don't really understand why some others do (except that those people don't seem to "get" what the skills are intended to represent). Use Profession when your job is to provide a service; use Craft when your job is to create something tangible. There are a few rare exceptions where it may be more complicated than that, but basically that's all there is to it.
I think what Vegepygmy meant is that you can't take ranks in Profession (armoursmith); You have to take ranks in Craft (armoursmith) because an armoursmith creates something.
In other words, armorsmithing is a craft, not a profession (in game terms, of course). Just like archeologist is a profession, not a craft.
Ultradan
I think what Vegepygmy meant is that you can't take ranks in Profession (armoursmith); You have to take ranks in Craft (armoursmith) because an armoursmith creates something.In other words, armorsmithing is a craft, not a profession (in game terms, of course). Just like archeologist is a profession, not a craft.
Ultradan
Yeah, that was what I said in the second half of my post.
Here's a question: Is farming a profession or a craft? That is, does growing something count as "creating?"
It would depend on what you felt farming entailed. I would say "Craft (Farming)" would let you know how to make stuff on a farm (barns, pens, till a field, all the grunt work, really). "Profession (Farmer)" would let you RUN a farm and make money at at. I imagine there's a big difference in small mom & pop farms and big agribusinesses, so that's what I would compare Craft/Profession to.
Here's a question: Is farming a profession or a craft? That is, does growing something count as "creating?"
Here's a question: Is farming a profession or a craft?
It is listed among the examples of professions in the Profession skill description. (It never hurts to read the rules before posting questions about them, kahoolin.)
It is listed among the examples of professions in the Profession skill description. (It never hurts to read the rules before posting questions about them, kahoolin.)
Oops sorry. I was at work so strangely enough I didn't have my PHB with me!
I always thought it should be a profession anyway. Makes sense. Incidentally this solves the problem sometimes mentioned of peasants earning such ludicrously low sums of money compared to the prices of common items.
If you assume a peasant has profession (farmer) then they should be able to make the same amount of money a week as a PC with a profession skill, which if I recall correctly is not too shabby.