This is the first campaign I am running where I know that the possiblity of PC death is rather high, in the past I wasn't too keen on having PC death's. But I've come to terms for this to be an enjoyable campaign for me and the Players, there has to be chances of death without the players figuring I'll save their butts everytime.
My real question is when it comes to players making new characters, at what level would you suggest bringing them in at? At whatever the Average level of the party is? One level lower?
Thanks.
This is the first campaign I am running where I know that the possiblity of PC death is rather high, in the past I wasn't too keen on having PC death's. But I've come to terms for this to be an enjoyable campaign for me and the Players, there has to be chances of death without the players figuring I'll save their butts everytime.
My real question is when it comes to players making new characters, at what level would you suggest bringing them in at? At whatever the Average level of the party is? One level lower?
Thanks.
One level lower. Death should have a penalty. If a character is raised, he starts out a level lower, with xp halfway between his current and previous level. A new character should also start out one level lower, with just enough XP for that level.
That way, you encourage carefull play. You also reward players for keeping their character even after they die (thus ensuring continuity).
I've been running SCAP for a while now, and haven't had a character death yet. It's a tough campaign. but with good planning and tactics, they should be fine.
One level lower. Death should have a penalty. If a character is raised, he starts out a level lower, with xp halfway between his current and previous level. A new character should also start out one level lower, with just enough XP for that level.
That way, you encourage carefull play. You also reward players for keeping their character even after they die (thus ensuring continuity).
I do the EXACT same thing. And it works pretty well too.
Ultradan
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I give replacement characters exactly the same xp as if they had died. I figure there is already sufficient inertia to raise the character from the dead.
However, I've been toying with the idea of letting the character come in at slightly higher xp (the minimum needed to obtain the average level of the party) if the player has a replacement character completely finished (including equipment and a good backstory to justify the character joining the group) before the old character even dies.
Characters take a while to generate, and not only does a death slow down play because the group has to (presumably) set aside their current agenda to go and get a replacement member, but also because the player has to spend time creating the character.
Of course, the problem with the above is that it makes replacement more attractive than raising from the dead. Maybe I should adopt the minimum xp for replacement characters that are generated at the table, and have pregenerated characters come in at the xp as if raised from the dead...hmmm...
One thing though - determine your policy and communicate it to your players. I'm a big fan of having house rules in writing. That way everyone knows them and I'm not swayed in the heat of the moment to say, "well, ok, I guess you can come in at the average level even though I said that every replacement character comes in one level lower."
Of course, the problem with the above is that it makes replacement more attractive than raising from the dead.
Also consider this: New characters have two more inherent advantages over characters that have been played from Level 1:
1) New characters are usually given an amount of coinage by the DM to buy magic items. You can place all kind of restrictions on what the PCs buy, but the fact is that the PC can tailor his character around an item(s) and that the character has EXACTLY what they want/need. A character played in game has much less control over this facet of the game.
2) New characters can circumvent feats and skills that they might have taken at earlier levels due to current needs. As an example, you'll never see a character generated at mid to high level with Combat Casting because they can just sink skill ranks into the Concentration skill; this is, in my opinion, a form of metagaming, but its hard to argue or prove. Another example might be the taking of a feat like Improved Toughness in lieu of Toughness. Further, a PC made at mid to high level can fashion their character into multiple PrClasses and take advantage of the latest official WOTC unbalancing supplements that they might not have been able to otherwise access.
How do you combat this? I have encountered just this problem, and am now awarding PCs occasional FREE ability scores at the end of a major turn in the story arc (AoW). Starting characters are based on the 28 point buy system, so if a PC dies, they don't get the benefit the dead PC got from those lost Ability Points. Other intangible benefits could include Hero/Action/Adventure Points, Popularity/Authority Points, ect.
Thanks.
Another question though. I've been toying with the idea of reducing the down sides of resurrection spells. What I was thinking of was instead of reducing the PC 1 level and then halfway to the next level, being resurrected would make you lose exp equal to your ECL * 500.
This would increase the want to be resurrected if the PC dies, especially later on if the PC has been around for awhile and has developed as a character pretty well.
Is this a good comprimise to the resurrection spells? What should I do for new characters if I use this system?
1) New characters are usually given an amount of coinage by the DM to buy magic items. You can place all kind of restrictions on what the PCs buy, but the fact is that the PC can tailor his character around an item(s) and that the character has EXACTLY what they want/need. A character played in game has much less control over this facet of the game.
This raises another issue - one that my party has taken adventage of due to several novice and careless players being in the group at some point:
- Newly generated replacement characters are allowed to equip using 2,000 gp/level as an allowed base (as opposed to the DMG standard, which I find far too generous); later on, when this character dies, a windfall in excess of 20,000 gp worth of magic items has just been dropped into the party's lap...and then another character is generated, and so on...
There was a time when I had one or two players going through a character every three sessions, so this was becoming an issue; fortunately, the players I have now are a more dedicated, serious group, so it's not a big deal, but I'd like to kjnow how you all would handle players who are doing little more than rotating characters that are 90% duplicates of their former 'selves' and being cash generators for the party.
M
I encourage my players to play different characters if theirs happens to die. There are dozens of different types of characters they can play, and so far they have been fairly creative with their first PC's in this campaign.
As for the equipment on a PC that dies. Thanks to one of the players, the group has taken the philosophy of taking any item that PC was carrying that was needed in the dungeon or the story. Plus any potions and wands they may have found in said dungeon. Otherwise, they leave everything else alone. They've come into the mindset that this guy was our friend and we should not desecrate his body like grave-robbers.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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You're right about the tailoring magic items/skills & feats problem - I forgot about that.
I was a player in a 3e version of Queen of the Spiders once, and one of the other PC's died. The DM let him make a new PC, with new treasure, and then, because the new character was the son of the old character, let the new character have all the old character's equipment (including an artifact weapon).
Which brings up another point about replacement characters - come up with a rule regarding the old PC's equipment. I made a big stupid arbitrary rule that when a PC dies, all his loot is redistributed to his off-camera family to prevent character death from enriching the party.
Another question though. I've been toying with the idea of reducing the down sides of resurrection spells. What I was thinking of was instead of reducing the PC 1 level and then halfway to the next level, being resurrected would make you lose exp equal to your ECL * 500.
This is exactly what I put into my house rules when I started running this campaign. I didn't like the variability where you could lose anywhere from 1/2 a level to 1-1/2 levels. Previously, I used ECL*200, but that didn't seem to be enough.
It can be a touch balancing act for me. I want to do as little work changing the encounters to suit the PCs as I can, but I also want my players to play the characters they want to play, not characters they think they need to play to survive. It can be a real problem adjusting encounters when one character falls behind the other characters, especially when it's two or more levels.
My players are cautious, sometimes bordering on the paranoid, which really bogs down play. There are times when getting them to make a decision is like pulling teeth. They've loosened up a bit since the xp cost of death has been lowered.
I encourage my players to play different characters if theirs happens to die. There are dozens of different types of characters they can play, and so far they have been fairly creative with their first PC's in this campaign.
There are, but I find that it takes a while for a player to get used to the abilities and options open to them when they play a new character. This is especially difficult at higher levels, when the player has to absorb *everything* about the new character all at once, rather than gradually over many levels.
Roleplaying and character history can also be a difficult transition.
While I encourage my players to keep their PCs, I in no way discourage new characters. In our last campaign, one player went through 4 characters, only one of them because of character death.
As for the equipment on a PC that dies. Thanks to one of the players, the group has taken the philosophy of taking any item that PC was carrying that was needed in the dungeon or the story. Plus any potions and wands they may have found in said dungeon. Otherwise, they leave everything else alone. They've come into the mindset that this guy was our friend and we should not desecrate his body like grave-robbers.
Your group has a great philosophy on another PC's death. I've seen other groups where it's like an all-you-can-eat buffet. I explained very early to my group the economics of the character death and new character comes in scenario, where it really pushes the overall party wealth up a lot. They're cool with having that character's wealth retire with the character. I've got a great group of players. :-)
If I have to insert any new characters into the campaign after the start, I'll use DMG p.135 to set the max starting money for the needed level. Then I figure the min starting money for that level by setting it at 60% of the max.
Then just like for level 1, they roll for their starting money. I also make it more difficult for them to find a good deal or a rare item at the start, because they have not had the chance to become a repeating customer with any of the local shopkeepers.
If I'm setting a percent for a requested item to be available somewhere in the city, I lower it by 10% for new characters until their reputation begins to grow by completing a chapter of the campaign.
I too, in the past, have had the problem of character death turning into a windfall profit for the group. So I do as the wise poster before me suggested and let them keep relevant and necessary items, obviously needed for the storyline of the party to go on. All other items are sent at the expense of the party to the "absent family" or occasionally their "church." Such chosen items will be declared "party items" when obtained. If they are not declared as "party items," they cannot be salvaged from their dead companion.
I limit this by making the party justify to me why it should be a "party item" due to it's ongoing "story" value. At one time, when I have a more immature group, I had to limit them to 3 declared "party items." Luckily I have a more mature group now and they tend to be rougher on themselves than I would be towards them in this regard.
I had a similiar problem in the previous campaign. Not so much because the players were trying to exploit the system in anyway but it was a high level game. So when someone died getting their goods was a big boost. They couldnt res due to story reasons. So I use this house rule now:
A problem that occurred in other games I have run was with a PC death. Should the PCs decide not to raise a dead companion, they are likely to loot the body and split up the proceeds, thereby creating a treasure imbalance between themselves and any replacement PC. Such an imbalance raises the chances of death for the new character and forces the DM to adjust the ELs of encounters to account for the party's extra resources.
So one of two things can happen:
1) The dead characters treasure are buried with him (heroes death)
2) The dead characters items (or gp value) are passed onto the nearest relative which can be a replacement character.
Both can be put down to cultural restraints. Its just the way the cultures of Pangea tend to deal with the possessions of a dead person.
The bottom line is I think its easier on me and fairer for the new PC.
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I handle PC replacement in a couple of ways.
Firstly, if a PC dies, and they resurrect him, rather than him losing a level, I bestow a 'negative level penalty' (ie -1 to hit, all skills, saves, caster level, -5 hp, etc) until they pay off a penalty of xp equal to what would put them at the half-way mark of the previous level.
Secondly, if their PC is replaced, they come in one level lower than their current PC, as long as they are no more than one level below the lowest PC in the group. That way if a unlucky player has the habit of blocking with his neck, he isn't kicked down to an ineffective level.
Lastly, I audit the PCs wealth levels every couple of adventures, to see if they are 'on track' with the DMG wealth levels. If they start going over, I'll adjust the new PC's wealth to 80% or 70% of starting. If they are under, I give him standard wealth.
While the PCs might benefit a bit from the dead guy's stuff, I haven't had major issues on this once I started tweaking starting equipment. Besides, a DM can always find ways to separate PCs and their wealth.
With this campaing ither one level lower, or two levels lower depending on what you want to do.
However in a more free flow enviroment (like the campaing i'm writing now) it will be 1st level and i have removed all Resurection spells except ture resurection. The good thing about this is it will make the party much much more carful. Also each ecnounter will be adjusted for the party as they go along. With SC... this would never work...