| DrWaites |
Spoilers - Beware!!!!
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Ok. My party is playing Drakthar's Way, the second module of the SCAP. The 6 member group averages 3rd level and consists of fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard, ranger, and favored soul (a spontaneous casting cleric type - from Complete Divine).
The party was directionless. Even though they'd found the dungeon and discovered that it was infested with goblins, they still didn't think it was where they needed to go. They went in and killed around 20 goblins on their first foray and mutilated them (cut off their ears) to get a bounty.
Drakthar, the master of the goblins, is a vampiric bugbear. He's interested in looking powerful in front of the other evil denizens of the criminal underworld. He doesn't take this lightly. After the group makes about 3 trips into his dungeon, killing off his minions, he decides he's going to bring hell to them.
He starts begins killing off a few of the party's associates: a barkeeper, an acolyte at a temple, a few others who've given them information. He leaves notes taunting the party and placing the responsibility of these citzens' deaths on their shoulders.
Now the party is terrified. They think they haven't a chance of stopping this vampire. They turn to some influential members of town for aid. Unfortunately, they're trusting some of the worst individuals.
Lord Vhalantru: This noble had agreed to sponsor the party during their search for the missing children in the first adventure (this amounted to him giving the party around 100 gp to outfit themselves so long as they played up his concern of finding the missing children). Of course, Vhalantru has other motivations, and he's involved with an organization that doesn't want this dungeon explored.
The noble had foot the bill for a Raise Dead on the party's ranger less than a week ago. A few days later, that same ranger and the party's fighter (1/3rd of the party) insult a noble guest in Vhalantru's home and try to threaten the guest by claiming that she was involved in an attack on the party (which is partially true, though she didn't know it).
The party is now (1 day later) asking Vhalantru to give them around 1000 gp for the purchase of silvered weapons. Considering that he's been insulted, his past gratitude (of 5000 gp) has been unappreciated, and seeing that the party may now be working against the cause of other noble families, what should Vhalantru do?
The Church of Wee Jas: The party is looking to this temple to send aid in destroying the vampire. Unfortunately, the temple authorities are evil and have reasons to keep the dungeon secure from adventurers. The party is essentially asking their enemies for help to kill other enemies. The party's wizard is a follower of Wee Jas (a neutral aligned necromancer) and in fair standing at the temple. Should the temple try to placate the party, disrupt their activities, etc?
The Last Laugh: An evil theives guild that hires assassins. The party has personally witnessed them attack a LG cleric. The group has offered to assassinate a benefitial townsperson who's part of a good organization. Still, the party thinks they can trust these cutpurses. They are asking them to send thugs, rogues, and meatshields in an all-out raid against the goblins. It's true that they stand to gain much if they can get control of this tunnel from the vampire, which provides secret access to and from the city (great for smuggling).
But since they are evil, the clear course of action would be to side with the party long enough to kill the vampire and his minions, and then wipe out the party to make sure no one alive knows of their secret tunnel. Right?
I'd really like to not have a TPK in any of these situations, as I'd like the campaign to continue.
Your thoughts?
| VedicCold |
How I would handle each (your mileage may vary):
Lord Vhalantru - The group has obviously taken a liking to him, which is wonderful for the storyline since it will make the later unveiling of him as a villain all the more potent. More importantly, it lends veracity to his request in Zenith Trajectory for the group to go looking for Zenith Splintershield. I would have him throw his weight behind the party for now, have him help them navigate the waters with the nobility, but I'd close the purse strings for a while. After all, he just laid down a lot of money for a Raise Dead. Just because he's a noble doesn't mean he has tons of disposable income lying around. Have him help build them up so that they trust him, then try to dispose of them when they promise to get beyond his ability to control.
Temple of Wee Jas - To keep face, have them offer the group discounts on equipment that would be useful in facing a vampire, along with beneficial spellcasting if need be. Actual support should be lacking however, since most of the clergy is constantly involved in the creation of magic items (they're big on that in this religion). They could even claim they're working on the wands of Control Water for the flood season, which will give them a credible excuse as to why they can't spare anyone now while also setting up a grain of suspicion later on when it turns out that they actually DIDN'T create any wands to contribute for the flood season in chapter 3. It's too early for this temple to be getting their hands dirty by actively opposing the PCs in any way yet.
Last Laugh - This one should be simple enough. Just slap together a team of five members of the last laugh (2 2nd level rogues, 2 2nd level fighters, and maybe a 3rd level leader) to delve into Drakthar's Way along with the group, since the party somehow believes them trustworthy. Then, any surviving members of the LL party have instructions to turn on the PCs and eliminate them once it seems Drakthar's Way is cleared out, thus placing it firmly in the control of the Last Laugh, which of course is really just a cat's paw for the Cagewrights by the end of the campaign anyway. Ideally, this turn-about will fail, and the PCs will be rid of their naive trust in the Last Laugh. They'll probably even be foaming at the mouth to take out the leader of the LL when they get the opportunity in Lords of Oblivion.
| DMFTodd |
Sounds like this adventure fell apart. I'd try to wrap it up before it derails the campaign.
I'd say that all of the half-orcs have now been smuggled into town and Drakthar's Way is no longer needed. Drakthar has made himself a problem as well, so Lord Vhlantru decides it is time to take him out.
V *loans* the party some weapons to help with Drakthar. Maybe even one of the weapons is recognized as belonging to some missing adventurers.
V also gets Ike Iverson to help (a nice introduction to an important NPC for later). I'd make Ike out to be clearly evil to severe any thought sof working with the church in the future - he kills captives outright, destroys evidence of what was going on down here, etc. Maybe they could learn something about Ike that would tip them off to who sent the assasins later in the campaign?
I'd also have V put Ike in charge of the party. "You weren't able to handle this yourself, so Father Iverson will be in charge of this foray." That'll encourage them to solve their own problems.
Have Ike boss them around, degrade their abilities, demand tribute to the church for healing ("I was sent to deal with the vampire, not to heal every scatch dealt by your incompentence").
And then move on to Flood Season
| Jeffrey Stop |
I'll preface this by saying I don't run evil campaigns and I don't allow evil characters. This is my personal preference, but it does color my comments below. I also have a problem with adventurers with a god-complex or who treat NPCs as just another resource to be consumed. i.e., "I am a mighty adventurer, it matters not who I insult" or "You're paying me to do a job, so if you want me to succeed, you also need to do X for me."
As always, your mileage may vary. If you don't run your campaign like I do, this may not be very helpful.
Lord Vhalantru: The noble had foot the bill for a Raise Dead on the party's ranger less than a week ago. A few days later, that same ranger and the party's fighter (1/3rd of the party) insult a noble guest in Vhalantru's home and try to threaten the guest by claiming that she was involved in an attack on the party (which is partially true, though she didn't know it).
The party is now (1 day later) asking Vhalantru to give them around 1000 gp for the purchase of silvered weapons. Considering that he's been insulted, his past gratitude (of 5000 gp) has been unappreciated, and seeing that the party may now be working against the cause of other noble families, what should Vhalantru do?
If this were my group, the first thing I'd do is cut the purse strings. Next, I'd have Vhalantru become distant and perhaps cold to the PCs. Until the Cagewrights' plan comes to fruition, Vhalantru needs to continue operating in the current political environment and that means making allies and choosing his enemies carefully. On top of that, the party has been unappreciative, which can't go over well with a being like Vhalantru's who's bound to have a big ego.
The next time the PCs went to meet with Vhalantru, I'd have his valet run interference: "I'm sorry, but Lord Vhalantru is not available for an audience today. Nor tomorrow either, I'm afraid. He's a lord of Cauldron and has responsibilities, that's why!" (slams door in PCs' faces)
Shortly afterward, I'd have the party see someone else get in to see Vhalantru on short notice. Then they'd hear rumors on the street that Vhalantru's hired another group (the Stormblades?) to take care of a problem that the previous group couldn't handle. I wouldn't give specifics, like what job it is, or name the group, but strongly hint that it's the PCs' job being farmed out.
Words like "incompetent", "beyond their limited capabilities", "apprentices", "better suited to farming", and "kobold-snarkers" will be used judiciously in describing the group to be replaced.
I'd also let them know that there is a window of opportunity to finish the job as the other group can't start right away -- they have to make the journey from Sasserine, where they're away on business.
There are several things I'm trying to accomplish here. I'm trying to let the party know that their actions have repercussions, they don't live in a vacuum. If a little bit more information had leaked, the PCs' reputation -- and how they're going to be treated by the townsfolk -- could be tarnished, damaged, or ruined. I definitely want them to know they still have a chance to finish the mission.
I'd want to very clearly communicate that playing bold characters with bold personalities who occasionally insult people is OK. Playing a character who is callous to his benefactors and insults at will...will reap what he sows.
The Church of Wee Jas: The party is looking to this temple to send aid in destroying the vampire. Unfortunately, the temple authorities are evil and have reasons to keep the dungeon secure from adventurers. The party is essentially asking their enemies for help to kill other enemies. The party's wizard is a follower of Wee Jas (a neutral aligned necromancer) and in fair standing at the temple. Should the temple try to placate the party, disrupt their activities, etc?
I don't have much to say about this other than I would limit the amount of aid the party gets. The Church of Wee Jas isn't exactly a charity, no matter how good the standing of the member. Plus the PC is not a member of the clergy, just a lay follower.
The Last Laugh: An evil theives guild that hires assassins. The party has personally witnessed them attack a LG cleric. The group has offered to assassinate a benefitial townsperson who's part of a good organization. Still, the party thinks they can trust these cutpurses. They are asking them to send thugs, rogues, and meatshields in an all-out raid against the goblins. It's true that they stand to gain much if they can get control of this tunnel from the vampire, which provides secret access to and from the city (great for smuggling).
I'd have a huge problem with my PCs offering to assassinate someone, especially a good person. In my campaign, that would be an evil act, plain and simple. I'd strongly hint that the PCs explore other courses of action.
If they were insistent, the Last Laugh would require the PCs to do the assassination before they'd help the group. I'd allow the PCs to attempt the assassination, but I'd have no mercy during the mission, or after. They may do the assassination, but they may also get caught.
On top of all that, the Last Laugh are about the worst allies one could have. They're certainly not going to volunteer to be in front fighting Drakthar and are very likely to turn on the PCs the first opportunity they get.
The Last Laugh is a very dangerous organization to get involved with, at almost any level. Another example of being careful what you wish for.
There are a number of other options the PCs can pursue. They can borrow a weapon from a former adventurer in Cauldron. They may be able to borrow the money from someone with the means (perhaps "Tyro Amberhelm") to buy a weapon or two -- not everyone in the party has to have a weapon that gets over Drakthar's DR. I'd make silversheen and scrolls of magic weapon available, if they weren't already.
To me it's important that the PCs EARN the stuff they're getting, in one way or another. Being hired by the Church of St. Cuthbert, for example, doesn't allow the PCs to free and unlimited healing. The Church hired them for a substantial fee and if the group can't handle the job on their own, there are other folks who are interested. What were their names again...the Stormblades?
| Gericko |
Interesting situation. Seems like the campaign is set up chock full of NPCs you shouldn't ally with. Very few that you should ally with. So I'm not surprised that they make some unfortunate decisions regarding who to try and ally with.
It seems to me that the group may be calling out for help in the campaign. I'd tend to add a few "grey" characters, one or two of which might turn out to be "grey-good" like Aragorn in LOTR. Someone battle and life-hardened, yet can't let this young group fall for lack of direction.
Now this doesn't mean I'd spoonfeed all the information that they need. And I wouldn't make this NPC available all the time. The previous poster that said they need to learn to solve their own problems was right. But they may actually need to be taught how to do this in your campaign.
Or it could simply be that a few more hints dropped to set them on the right course may make the campaign more fun for them.
It also seems that they may be thinking of Cauldren as a place to visit instead of home. As time goes by, they need to grow to love the place so that they will want to save it. So if all their experiences are negative, this will not happen.
The campaign says that their reputation grows and they become more and more popular. Play this out in specific as you advance from scene to scene.
--NPC warns them of this or that with regard to the Last Laugh
--NPC offers them discount
--round of drinks bought for helping the orphanage
--wise old mage pats the young mage on the back and whispers "well done son."
Don't throw too much of this at them...all things must remain in balance. Just don't neglect this side of their growth in Cauldron.
| Jeffrey Stop |
Interesting situation. Seems like the campaign is set up chock full of NPCs you shouldn't ally with. Very few that you should ally with. So I'm not surprised that they make some unfortunate decisions regarding who to try and ally with.
Yes, there are a lot of people you want to avoid. There are also a lot of people you can ally yourself with (I don't have my book with me, so some of the names escape me):
Fario Ellogoth -- fighter/rogueFellian Shard -- cleric/rogue of Fharlanghn
"Tyro Amberhelm"/??? -- wizard
Jenya Urikas -- cleric of St. Cuthbert
Rufus Laro -- cleric of St. Cuthbert
Coryston Pike -- former adventurer with merchant connections
??? -- cleric of Pelor
??? -- cleric of Kord
Keygan Ghelve -- locksmith/wizard (of limited help)
Skylar Krewis -- town guard
Terseon Skellerang -- captain of town guard
The Stormblades -- another adventuring group
And these are all people you meet/could meet in the first adventure of the SCAP. It would be very easy to add other NPCs, too.
My previous advice was premised on two things: that the players were experienced and they didn't care about any repercussions for their actions. Those were probably bad assumptions to make.
Perhaps a more reasonable approach is to present the situations from the NPCs' points of view (at least Vhalantru's) and ask, "If an NPC treated you this way, how would you react?"
For the Last Laugh, I'd stress that killing good and/or innocent people for personal gain is a very bad thing. I'm curious as to why the party wants to ally themselves with a group they know is bad. Is it because they don't think they have any other options?
The other advice Gericko gave is very good. It's imperative that the DM allow their players access to the things they need to do their job. In this case, they need a way to defeat Drakthar. This could be silver, magic weapons. It could be access to silver weapons and scrolls of magic weapon or access to silversheen and oil of magic weapon. Acid, fire, and holy water all work against a vampire, as do cure spells.
Depending on how challenging you want to be, maybe only some of the group gets access to silver weapons, probably for economic reasons (i.e., they can't afford any more). Just because everyone in the group doesn't have a silver weapon doesn't mean the group can't accomplish the mission.
As pointed out elsewhere, the hard part of Drakthar is figuring out what he is and how to defeat him. His hit points are low, so if they have something to get over his DR, he's going down pretty quickly.
You want your PCs to feel like they've accomplished something and by having NPCs acknowledge them and their accomplishments, you go a long way to having happy players.
-- have them be recognized when they go to another town
-- when they get to higher levels, have others seek the PCs out for advice
-- when they do something particularly heroic, have them made "Heroes of Cauldron" (or some such honorific)
-- if it's their cup of tea, give them the ability to become nobles
As Gericko said, all things in balance. Too much of this and it becomes commonplace or blase.
Good luck!
| Gericko |
Thanks Jeffrey for the compliments.
I agree that there are NPCs included in the campaign that can offer advice. Use them!
However, note that the first obvious "good NPCs" they run across is a religious follower of low level who needs saving and a temporary head priest who is trying to find her own way.
Therefore, I plan on adding an NPC that will appear somewhat aloof who will begin gradually and without making it too obvious to advise the party. Perhaps even just a contact for the thief in the group.
I may make the NPC a retired rogue who has turned from his dark ways and therefore leads a lonely life with one eye over his shoulder for those who would cause him harm. He has lots of real life experience and can help them in a subtle way while they are of low levels. Then as the party advances, I can slowly reverse the role. He's aging, sick and needs their help in some way? I'm not sure I want to make him a former member of the Ebon Fold or something like that yet. I'm still pondering what I want his past to be.
| DrWaites |
Thanks everyone for the advice. I guess I should be a little more precise.
The party is not evil. They are mostly neutral in alignment, some leaning toward good.
The only evil act they've seen from the Last Laugh was the thugs beating the cleric of Cuthbert at the beginning of the 1st adventure. The guild later explained this in very "gray" terms, and the party accepted they may not be rotten to the core. When the Last Laugh offered to assassinate Tyro Amberhelm, this was before anyone knew of his true identity. The party thought he was Orbius the Beholder or possibly the Blue Duke - without any real proof. (The party, to their credit, encouraged the Last Laugh to wait until they heard further details about Amberhelm before assassinating him.)
It is because of this that there's bad blood between the party and "Amberhelm." The party told him that they were meeting with the Last Laugh, who were considering assassinating him ... not really a good way to start out. Amberhelm was grooming one party member - an elven ranger - to become a possible candidate for the Striders, but that ranger became one of the chief finger-pointers thinking that he was Orbius. Amberhelm was also trying to be discreet with the ranger to test his personality, and the ranger blurted out that he would be willing to do evil if it meant that Amberhelm could grant him greater powers. So between the party's alliance with the Last Laugh and the crazed antics of the elven ranger, Amberhelm isn't in a likely position to aid them, not when he thinks he may be working against the Striders' cause.
The party has only asked the temples of St. Cuthbert and Wee Jas for help. They ignore the other churches, though I've told them several times about their existence.
They also will not go to any of the other nobles or prominent citizens for help, thinking this would offend Vhalantru.
They distrust the town guard, after finding out that some of them are also members of the Last Laugh (don't ask me why they think this is a bad thing and overtly working with the Last Laugh is not). They won't trust information to Captain Skellerang, keeping him out of the loop as much as possible. They think that he will report to his superiors, who are likely the forces trying to bring doom to Cauldron (though I've never suggested this). This is the same reason they don't trust Skylar Krewis. And they think the town guard is incompetent aganist vampires.
The party is running out of positive allies, and I think that introducing a new character now will just make everyone more suspicious.
| DrWaites |
Well, the party got free vials of silver sheen, greater magic weapon oil, potions of protection from undead, and a fully charged wand of cure light wounds at a 3rd level caster. They purchased holy symbols to keep the vampire at bay.
But they still could not defeat Drakthar.
As the party was trapped between Drakthar and 5 rat swarms, he just kept pounding on the group. They could not escape the residual damage of the swarms every round. This, coupled with the vampire's energy drain slams, spelled certain doom.
Then the party got the attention of the darkmantles (for Drakthar ambushed them outside the creatures' lair, pushing them into their trap).
It would have easily been a TPK had I not stood down and allow the party to flee. Drakthar was hit once, and it was quickly regenerated.
The party has given up on Drakthar's Way. Fine by me: the adventure is impossible.
The only problem now is that they're woefully underpowered for Flood Season, since they're only 3rd level. I think they will be killed when they enter the Lucky Monkey.
How do groups actually succeed in the SCAP?