I've seen the posts bemoaning epic levels and stuff and I have to say I agree that epic characters and the epic game are far too powerful and therefore too complicated to make gaming enjoyable.
So, what's a 20th level character to do? What is there to achieve after he's carved out a kingdom or built a wizard academy or whatever? What reason does he have to go on? I ask because after all the fun you have trying to get to level 20, how much can you actually do once you are there without getting fed up? Thoughts?
I personnally don't enjoy those high level epic games for the same reason you stated... Too complicated (specially for the DM).
But I suppose, for those who do enjoy endless number crunching, the adventures would have a tendency to be extraplanar or pretty much out of this world. Travelling to other planes, thwarting planar invasions, slowly becoming gods themselves.
Ultradan
Revert to NPC status - the player can then start a whole new 1st level character and repeat the process. If he is lucky then at some point in his adventures he might even meet his 20th level character as part of the plot.
The fun is not actually being 20th level, at least not for long, but all the experiences and adventures and travels in the process of getting there. Once you're that powerful, many groups and DMs prefer to let their old characters more or less retire and start anew with new abilities and stories and chances for different experiences.
I think that all epic level character should boil there stats, abilities, feats, skills, special attacks, and magical equipment down to a single number.
If they ever to do anything cool. Beat up on a god, jump over a mountain, build and artifact, benchpress a mountain, ride and advanced greatwyrm omnisuperundescribablypowerfulonlyputintothegameviaasupplementthatwantstopr ovethatnomanyhowmanydragonsyoucankilltherewillalwaysbeonestongerthatcaneaty ou as their personal pet, drink a mountain. Have them roll a d20 and add it all up. There is no actuall number to hit they will succeed no matter what, but the d20 roll tells the character whether he should describe his triumph as a miraculous beat all odds super cool victory, or a I'm so awesome why did I even decend from my personal multiverse to deal with such a worthless challenge super cool victory
I've seen the posts bemoaning epic levels and stuff and I have to say I agree that epic characters and the epic game are far too powerful and therefore too complicated to make gaming enjoyable.
So, what's a 20th level character to do? What is there to achieve after he's carved out a kingdom or built a wizard academy or whatever? What reason does he have to go on? I ask because after all the fun you have trying to get to level 20, how much can you actually do once you are there without getting fed up? Thoughts?
You could kill the tarrusqe(sp) take over kingdoms and all the stuff that 1st levelers only dream of. I played in an epic lvl campaign and became a demi-god after stopping an evil king from reaching god status. I thought it was a fun adventure since I got to use large carriges and small hills as weapons (my char was insanely strong) We fought a corrupted Huge Angel that almost killed us and it was about the third encounter.
of course my B.swords crit modifier was so that if I got over a natural ten I hit on a crit. (My freind uses a lot of house rules that make the game INSANE)
It's about pacing. I figured my players would want to continue playing after 20th lvl, so I kept everything fairly low-key pre-20th lvl. Now, post-20th lvl, they get to do the super-wah-cool-nifty things - stopping planar invasions, organize diplomatic treaties (on a big scale), prevent dead gods from rising, etc etc.
...So, what's a 20th level character to do? ...
Retire. Really :)
Jack
I think epic-level play is just a trick by WotC to make us keep buying stuff, anyway -- they tell us it's fun, so we believe it.
Jack
only half joking
I've seen the posts bemoaning epic levels and stuff and I have to say I agree that epic characters and the epic game are far too powerful and therefore too complicated to make gaming enjoyable.
So, what's a 20th level character to do? What is there to achieve after he's carved out a kingdom or built a wizard academy or whatever? What reason does he have to go on? I ask because after all the fun you have trying to get to level 20, how much can you actually do once you are there without getting fed up? Thoughts?
I for one don't bemoan epic level play. It can be complicated for a DM with dishonest players (so that one must continually memorize and keep tabs on their abilities) or for a DM that uses a wide selection of prestige classes and/or magic items. I recently ran an epic game; at one point a player showed me some prestige class he had found on the net; it couldn't be gotten until about 30th level and included "invincibility" as a class feature. I looked, nodded, smiled and never considered the class as a player option. As a DM option on the other hand...
Anyway, I love epic play so long as those game-breaking abilities and items (such as Bracers of Relentless Might and +20 swords of Instant Disintegration) don't interfere.
Part of the issue, IMO is the mindset of most gaming groups.
If it is hack and slash - well fair enough, epic level shouldn't be a problem, there is ALWAYS a bigger badder monster.
Part of the challenge with a number of the epic level types is that folks look at their stats block and see these creatures in vaccuum - an epic level npc, be she a naga queens, a orc chieftan, a great wizard, whatever, is that the stat block describes them in isolation. Adventurers often don't have kingdoms, or big organizations supporting them - hence the term adventurers rather than administrators. Such is not the case (at least shouldn't be) for epic level npc's - it not just them, its their allies (many of which would also be epic level), their minions (many of which would be high level), their intelligence network - which should give the bad guys a good head start, probably make them aware of the Epic level PCPs, their resources and plan, plus thhey would have physical infrastructure - and resources to fortify their holding against epic level pcs. I agree that specifications on such fortifications and the composition of appropriate minions is a weak part of the rules - but if you are playing at an epic level presumably the players and the DM have the experience and the expertise to work out appropriate solutions for their own campaign.
The other gaming attititude the makes epic level play shallow, is that many campaigns - I have been guilty of this myself - have the characters "saving the world" all the time - their entire adventuring career is spent on "epic type" scenarios - thus when epic level are actually achieved - there is no progression left, easy enough to create challenges, even interesting ones, but the emotional buzz of saving the world is the baseline for the game. Makes it hard to kick the game up to epic levels when that has been the mentality all along.
Certain things contribute to this - the direct intervention of gods, which I abhor, I mean if the gods are involved with you at fourth level - what do you do at 20+ for monumental effect.
Too much magic, if magic is easily acquired and the wealth tables to for out of wack the game breaks down from a logic point of view.
Lack of planning by the NPCs and DMs - if the stats indicate that the bad guys are of above average intelligence and the paradigm of the campaign world is that such a thing as adventurers exist (and if you have a shop where people can purchase and trade magic weapons your game shares that paradigm) intelligent creatures would have plans, and defenses versus adventurers - and would only rarely be unprepared.
Similarly the introduction of Elminster, Drizz't etc. to your game prior to epic levels - limits options at epic levels,and diffuses any drama those characters would bring to the game.
Lastly (for this post at least) skirting rules that are cumbersome with regard to item creation diffuses the impact and wonder of magic - and unbalances the game. The main point of abuse (as I see it) is creation time on powerful weapons. 1000 gp per day of value, and that is if everything goes well and the character does't need to do any research to create the item. A 100,000 gp item should take 100 days - one 100 days of no spell casting, fighting, or other strenuous activity. That kind of down time should significantly slow the advance of a party. Add in research time, interrupted attempts, and failed attempts. And you could easily be looking at a year plus to create such an item. When do you get 100 uninterupted days as an adveturer.
Over the years (many years) I have been guilty of all of theh above. And I am the first to admit that pacing is a difficult thing to learn, in running, in martial arts, in storytelling and in gaming. It takes experience and maturity to do well, and real the only way I can think of to get it down (I am still working on it) is to try it, go til it breaks down, then go again, tyrying to get better each time. In that sense gaming is like any other hobby.
Anyway point is - epic level rules - don't love them but the real reason epic level play seems busted is the players (including the DM) not the rules.
Part of the issue, IMO is the mindset of most gaming groups...
Very well put - awesome use of the language, dude! My sentiments precisely. I've been guilty of several of the "naughties" that you mentioned as a DM.
What I have found, interestingly enough, that my players aren't as interesting in the hack & slash - it's not nearly as satisfying to them as solving a problem or helping an NPC out. Consequently, I've been able to avoid the "deus ex machina" approach and avoid the use of high-powered NPCs and deities (thank goodness for that).
OK here is another dilema along the lines of what is a 20th level player to do...
We started a campaign at 20th level (no idea why or ow long it is going to run). The DM has stated that we will not be levelling up very often, if at all (which might be reasonable as it takes a lot of XP to level up when only fighting CR 17 stuff).
My question is, as a player, what options do a broadly Good party have to beef themselves up if they are not likely to actually level up? Do people have general ideas for 20th level PCs earning some cash and XP? How many of you have thought about undeath for a high level PC?
igi
The other thing that can be done with high level characters, though it takes a little more work on your part, is to hit them with something that they have never seen before. Even if it means that you pull a new monster out of your butt. I Dm for alot of high level characters, including dome who have reached deity level. The difference between a low level character, and a high level character is that the high level character has alot more to lose. attack their infrastructure, their families and their power structure. Split the group up and attack them one or two at a time with odds stacked way against them. Something else to help keep them humble is to throw a few NPCs into your world that are WAY beyond their abaility to kill! you can even make a few of them bad guys that are secretly behind all of their problems. Someone mentioned Elminster and Drizz't, if you're running FR, there are a lot more to choose from than that: Manshoon, Fazul Chembral, Samaster, Zastam, The Shade conclave, Obude Manyarrows, ect. Not to mentin all of the chosen of mystra and every other deity in the land.
My personal ultra NPC is a Weretiger by the name of Malic Creed. he wears a suit of made from symbiotic dragon scale that warp reality and magic in a 30 ft radius. That means that he bends reality to his will and can alter ANY spell cast within the area of effect into the exact opposite of what it was intended to be. the blades that the armor forms covers his claws are a full +20, and he can warp any type of teleportation or dimensional travle in his area of effect back to him so that he can continue the killing. he is 55th level. I have taken groups of 30 to 40th level adventures and forced them to run from him. they have never beaten him and they have learned that when he is around, to walk on egg shells. A couple of my players aren't happy about me creating him, but it is mainly that they don't like not being the top of the food chain. BUt then again I didn't like them treating my NPC like dirt and threatening city officials when things didn't go their way.
So, what's a 20th level character to do? What is there to achieve after he's carved out a kingdom or built a wizard academy or whatever? What reason does he have to go on? I ask because after all the fun you have trying to get to level 20, how much can you actually do once you are there without getting fed up? Thoughts?
Emphasize Role play as opposed to Roll play. You can wield Stormbringer all you want, but many problems in life can't be solved by gutting the person who happens to be standing in front of you. So the DM sets up a problem that can't be solved by a high damage adjustment or an insane modifier to a proficiency (are they called skills now??) roll. If your players have divination spells they routinely use to solve problems, write in a reason why they don't work. Forcing a party to solve a problem or achieve an objective by a means other than full frontal physical or magical assault will work for any level. And as was previously posted, with epic level chars the DM often has LOTS to pick from in terms of stakes that are personal to them.
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I haven't read the whole thread, so I hope this wasn't adressed already:
I got the impression (and I havent' played/mastered 3.5 at any higher levels than 10) that some skill checks become just not neccessary anymore, because the PCs will have skill bonuses which make a skill check successfull even if they would roll a 1.
The toughest Jump or Knowledge skills I've seen are DC30. So what challenge to skill checks be at higher levels... anyone???