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I am planning on playing a Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror. They are kinda like a cross between Sorcerer and Clreic and can cast both arcane and divine spells. They have a restricted spell list and they also get an Advanced Learning ability every few levels which allows them to add one new spell from the school of necromancy to their spell list. The class does not recieve the Desecrate spell which is an Evocation (Evil) spell and therefor I can't add it to my list by using the Advanced Learning class ability. I was wondering if I could uses the "Extra Spell" feat on page 80 of the "Complete Arcane" to add Desecrate to my spell list. The feat states, "For classes such as wizard tat have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access too and would be unable to reasearch," which is the boat I am clearly in. I'm just wondering what you guys think, or am I reading something wrong. I mean you are burning a feat to get one spell so it is a pretty costly exchange so it seems balanced to me.
With the way me and my group read it, yes you could use that feat to learn a spell not on your least. I didn't write the book though, so obviously I'm not an athority. If that's now how the feat was intended though, I can't see a possible use for for spellcasters that don't have a spells known list.
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With the way me and my group read it, yes you could use that feat to learn a spell not on your least. I didn't write the book though, so obviously I'm not an athority. If that's now how the feat was intended though, I can't see a possible use for for spellcasters that don't have a spells known list.
Thanks, every lil bit helps.
Some people say yes, and others say no. Ask your DM.
Remember, you can also take Arcane Disciple and get the Evil Domain. That will give you Desecrate once a day(per the feat's rules) and will put it on your spell list, meaning you can use Wands of Desecrate.
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Some people say yes, and others say no. Ask your DM.
Remember, you can also take Arcane Disciple and get the Evil Domain. That will give you Desecrate once a day(per the feat's rules) and will put it on your spell list, meaning you can use Wands of Desecrate.
Arcane Disciple is a good one, the only problem is I'd have to make my character Evil, since you have to have the same alingment as your deity when taking the feat. It is a great suggestion though b/c I had totally forgotten about the feat so thank you!
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Here is another question while I'm at it. Could you take the Flaw for wizards that allows you to not summon a familiar as a dread necromancer? I know you have to take all your flaws at first level, however a Dread Nercomancer does not get his familiar until around 7th; so I am wondering do you slect the flaw at 1st level and then wait all the way until 7th level to gain the benefits of the flaw, or if the flaw doesn't apply b/c the dread necromancer does not get summon familiar at first level. Again I'd love to hear anyones thoughts on the subject.
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Finally my third question involves a Dread Necromancer's Transformation into a lich. Starting at 2nd lvl the class gives you the Lich Body ability which grants you Damage Reduction 2 Magic and Bludgeoning this DR increases to DR 8 at 15 lvl. At 19th lvl the class recieves Craft Wonderous Item as a bonus feat which helps the Dread Necromancer prepare the phylactery required to become a lich. Finally at 20th lvl the Dread Necromancer recieves the Lich Transformation class ability which states, "Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing HD become d12's, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery. A dread necromancer who is not human does not gain this class feature (p 87 Heroes of Horror)."
I'm a little bit torn here the first and last sentances seem to imply you become a Lich, that is you apply the Lich Template from p167 of the Monster Manual; however, it refers you to the undead type traits on p317 of the monster manual. So I am wondering do you in fact become a Lich and gain the benefits of the Template on page 167 of the Monster Manual like Damage Reduction (SU) 15 magic and bludgeoning, the Fear Aura(SU) at a 60 ft Radius, the Paralyzing Touch(SU), the Turn Resistance +4 (EX), the +2 ability increases to Int, Wis, and Cha, and the +8 racial bounus to Hide, Listen Move Silently, Search, Sense Motives, and Spot check, Or is you just get the undead subtype please any response is appreciated.
Extra Spell: While the wording of this feat certainly leaves room for interpretation, I think what they mean is that the feat allows a Wizard, who normally could learn pretty much /any/ spell on their class list, to gain the spell automatically when they otherwise wouldn't be able to. In other words, it's gained in a manner similar to their 2 free spells each level. They don't have to find it on a scroll or in a spellbook, or have to spend time and money (which they may not have) to research it. They just get it. What the feat does /not/ state specifically is that they can learn spells that are not on their class list, which wizards has set a precedent with in the "Expanded Knowledge" feat for Psionic characters, and the class ability of the same name for the Recaster prestige class.
Dread Necromancer: When the dread necromancer undergoes the Lich Transformation, they gain all the abilities of the Lich Template, /including/ the undead traits. A lich is undead, after all, and the reference is precisely that: a reference. It merely points you to the common traits that /all/ undead share so it doesn't have to be reprinted in full for each undead thing.
And since I forgot to mention it in my last post...
You might just ask your DM if he'd consider adding Desecrate to the Dread Necromancer's class list. It'd be a far simpler solution, and wouldn't require any juggling of feats and whatnot.
Instead of starting a new thread, I thought I'd post my question here. . .
One of my players is using the dread necromancer class, and just hit third level, where he took tomb-tainted soul. I think this is a great feat for his character, and fits right into the particular flavor of the class.
However, this feat's balance is called into question by the use of charnel touch, a class ability that does negative energy damage agaisnt living creatures as a touch attack. Against undead, this touch heals 1 hit point +1/4 levels. . . which we both feel he sould be able to use to heal himself.
The use of this touch requires a standard action, and there is no limit to the number of times he can use it per day. With the tomb-tainted soul feat, one would believe that after any individual battle, the PC can essentially regenerate 1 hp/round until he is full again.
The effect of this is that, while pretty useless in any individual fight (1 hp), he will have no problem refreshing himself to full hp again during downtimes.
Now, before you automatically scream "broken," many of classes spells and abilities require close range/direct combat, and the poor attack bonus and d6 hit points leave something to be desired (the DR is nice, of course).
Considering that no one else in the party can heal him in the heat of battle, and I've already ruled that the odds of finding a "cause wounds" potion to buy is pretty small, he can rely on no one but himself for healing in any combat situation. As a side note, the party cleric has already said that she wants nothing to do with negative energy magic, and won't prepare spells or use items to help him.
Nevertheless, both he and I and concerned about the future and high level play, and neither of us want an unbalanced build that's going to cause problems for the rest of the group. Does anyone see a reason why this shouldn't be allowed? If not, what would be a better ruling for charnel touch combined with tomb-tainted soul?
Thanks.
However, this feat's balance is called into question by the use of charnel touch, a class ability that does negative energy damage agaisnt living creatures as a touch attack. Against undead, this touch heals 1 hit point +1/4 levels. . . which we both feel he sould be able to use to heal himself.
. . .
Nevertheless, both he and I and concerned about the future and high level play, and neither of us want an unbalanced build that's going to cause problems for the rest of the group. Does anyone see a reason why this shouldn't be allowed? If not, what would be a better ruling for charnel touch combined with tomb-tainted soul?
I've built a couple of Dread Necromancers, though sadly I've never had the opportunity to play one. I always figured that since the Charnel touch is negative energy that already exists in the Necromancer's body, it couldn't be used to heal them. It seems somewhat like trying to donate your own organ to yourself. It's already there, so you can't very well take it out and put it back in for greater effect. Negative energy spells draw the energy from somewhere else, presumably, so using them to heal yourself makes sense.
I'd be inclined to disallow it, but mostly for the questionable logic of it. So far as mechanics go, if you don't mind him going into every battle at full health, I don't really see a problem with it. On the other hand, with only d6 Hit Dice, it's unlikely that he would have to spend that much magic on keeping his hit points up anyway.
If you want to allow it, and really need him to not go into battle at full health, that's not too hard either. Just keep him busy. Give him an item that generates a Hide from Undead effect that lasts as long as he concentrates on it, and takes one of his Rebuke Undead uses to start up, so that they can sneak through the higher level necromancer's camp or something kooky like that. Or, if you think he's getting too powerful, start adding constructs into the equation. Like an Inevitable. Or start having the enemy clerics use spells like Death Ward.
I'd be more worried about abuse of the Undead Mastery feature combined with the undead crafting feats in Libris Mortis. Hundreds of 1 HD skeletons that have 16 hp and explode in showers of negative energy upon destruction can be dangerous even at 20th level. Just don't get me started on the idiocy inherent to "Greater" Harm. ;)
I've built a couple of Dread Necromancers, though sadly I've never had the opportunity to play one. I always figured that since the Charnel touch is negative energy that already exists in the Necromancer's body, it couldn't be used to heal them. It seems somewhat like trying to donate your own organ to yourself. It's already there, so you can't very well take it out and put it back in for greater effect. Negative energy spells draw the energy from somewhere else, presumably, so using them to heal yourself makes sense.
That's a good point. Thanks!
We're both cautious about this feat's balance for the DN, and that's a great justification as to why using charnel touch to heal yourself won't work.
We'll mull it over some more at the next session. Thanks for your feedback. :)
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However, this feat's balance is called into question by the use of charnel touch, a class ability that does negative energy damage agaisnt living creatures as a touch attack. Against undead, this touch heals 1 hit point +1/4 levels. . . which we both feel he sould be able to use to heal himself.
. . .
Nevertheless, both he and I and concerned about the future and high level play, and neither of us want an unbalanced build that's going to cause problems for the rest of the group. Does anyone see a reason why this shouldn't be allowed? If not, what would be a better ruling for charnel touch combined with tomb-tainted soul?
I've built a couple of Dread Necromancers, though sadly I've never had the opportunity to play one. I always figured that since the Charnel touch is negative energy that already exists in the Necromancer's body, it couldn't be used to heal them. It seems somewhat like trying to donate your own organ to yourself. It's already there, so you can't very well take it out and put it back in for greater effect. Negative energy spells draw the energy from somewhere else, presumably, so using them to heal yourself makes sense.
I'd be inclined to go along with this logic. Run-of-the-mill liches, who are healed by negative energy, can inflict d8+5 in negative energy damage by touch each round. So if liches could use that ability to heal themselves, they'd essentially have fast healing on any round they didn't use the touch attack. That would make liches enough more powerful that presumably the ability would have been mentioned in the monster description. In any event, the simplest solution to me seemed to be to rule that the touch attacks draw on already existing energy and so can't be used for self healing.
I do like the idea of donating an organ to oneself, though. :)
