I have a player that wants to take the "Fell Drain" metamagic feat for his Warmage. I am not sure if this feat is too powerful or not. It seems to me that with the feat he would be able to create a "Fell Magic Missle" at level 6 (it is +2 level) that would create a spell that automatically hits 3 people for damage and 1 negative level. Or at level 9 he could do a "Fell Melf's Acid Arrow" that would drain a level each round for 4 rounds... each. So...
round 1: hits with "Fell Melfs Acid Arrow" - creature gains 1 negative level
round 2: hits with "Fell Melfs Acid Arrow" - creature gains 2 negative levels
round 3: hits with "Fell Melfs Acid Arrow" - creature gains 3 negative levels
round 4: hits with "Fell Magic Missle" - creature gains 4 negative levels
wait for it...
in the end... 6 rounds later..
the opponent takes 13 negative levels...
Is this too much?
Should this be allowed?
Anyone???
I don't have the book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure the Fell Drain would only apply to one missle of Magic Missle and would only apply the first round of a Melf's Acid Arrow.
It seems to me that with the feat he would be able to create a "Fell Magic Missle" at level 6 (it is +2 level) that would create a spell that automatically hits 3 people for damage and 1 negative level.
That's correct. Any living creature dealt damage by the spell gains a negative level.
Or at level 9 he could do a "Fell Melf's Acid Arrow" that would drain a level each round...
Whoa! Hold it right there, pal. Where do you see anything in the feat description about ROUNDS? Or gaining more than one negative level?
Is this too much?
Should this be allowed?
Personally, I think the feat is overpowered. But if you're going to allow it, be sure you're applying it correctly: ONE negative level per creature damaged per casting of the spell.
Why would the spell only effect one creature one time? That does not apply to other metamagic feats as far as I can tell. A empowered Wall of Fire does extra damage to all creatures effected no matter how many times they run through it. A empowered Magic Missle empowers all the missles, not just one. As far as I know, negative levels do stack, regardless of the source. A vampire can drain round after round with its slam attack and a person can be effect twice with a twinned Enervation spell. You can even Empower, Maximize and Twin an Enervation spell for a whopping...12 negaitive levels... of course that would be a 13th level spell...heh..
But an Empowered, Maximized Enervation would be 6 negative levels and it could be cast as a 9th level spell. Unless the PC was also a Incatrix and I don't want to get into that...
That is exactly what my player wants to become and do... uh-oh!
Why would the spell only effect one creature one time?
Because the feat says: "Living foes damaged by your spell also gain a negative level."
NOT: "Living foes damaged by your spell also gain negative levels."
Because the feat says: "You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level."
NOT: "You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that each time a living creature is dealt damage, it also gains a negative level."
Contrast the feat description with the spell description for wall of fire: "The wall deals this damage when it appears and on your turn each round to all creatures in the area." And a vampire's energy drain: "A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round."
When an effect is intended to be applied more than once, the rules usually indicate so. The absence of such language in the feat description, combined with the fact (which you apparently recognize) that interpreting it the way you're suggesting would be utterly BROKEN, is a strong indicator that the feat doesn't inflict more than one negative level per target per spell.
When an effect is intended to be applied more than once, the rules usually indicate so.
That Doesn't make any since. And this is why. Does it say anything in the widen or enlarge feat that indicates that Widen Spells have there size increased for a single round? Of course not, that's absurd. Can you think of any other metamagic feat that only works on the first round? I can't.
The only exception that I found to that rule is the Fell weaken Feat. It specificaly says that the strength damage doesn't stack with its self. Obviously they didn't want the Fell weaken feat to work round after on a damage over time spell, and the only way for them to prevent that since meta magic feats do work round after round is to specifically state that the effect from this metamagic feat does not stack. Thats the only true way of ensureing that the effect doesn't stack round after round.
Obviously they do intend for the fell drain feat to stack because they said so in plain words. If they didn't intend for fell drain to stack with its self or work on damage over time spells they would have put a cap on it like Fell Weaken and they wouldn't have said "If the subject has at least as many negative levels as it has hit dice, it dies" . I don't think that they are taking about the situation that the monster already has gained negative levels from other means.
This feat is no different from any other feat. Further more this feat has already been through the errata process and it came out squeaky clean on the other side :)
Another example I have is the Fell Frighten spell. It says that it causes anyone not immune to fear effects to become shaken for 1 minute. At first glance it doesn't seem like this effect stacks with its self until you look closer at the rules.
From the SRD...
Shaken: Characters who are shaken take a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the path of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. However, if the duration of their fear continues, characters can be forced to flee once more if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken).
Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. Other than running away from the source, their path is random. They flee from all other dangers that confront them rather than facing those dangers. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing.
Becoming Even More Fearful: Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.
What that means is, a character under the effects of a Fell frighten Melphs Acid Arrow would turn tail and run on the second round and flat out panic on the third.
Damn -
A Fell Frighten Melf's Acid Arrow is beefy. What's really cool is that Melf's Acid arrow lasts for 3 rounds... It is a automatic panic spell. What is the level adjustment for Fell Frighten agian?
Fell Frighten is +2.
Fell Frighten is +2.
+2! .. thats an automatic panic!!
Not entirely automatic, A war mage can't cast 4th level spells until 8th level. In order for the fear effect to go off it has to damage them. Spell resistence/evasion/ being imune to fear would counter it.
Still - those Fell metamagics seem really powerful and a cool idea to boot. I like seeing metamagic feats that do more then just 'more damage'...
Well, I'm not sure what books you're getting these out of, but that many negative levels doesn't seem to make sense from the balance perspective. There's a difference between frightening someone away for a while, and sucking their life force away. Also, look at the Warmage Edge- it sates that the bonus only applies once to effects such as magic missile, not once per missile.
Further, think about widen and say, Hallow. Hallow is a long duraction spell. If you used Widen with it, the effect is applied once and lasts as long as the spell, as with any other spell. The spell effect (and thus, the metamagic), isn't renewing istelf every round (at least, that's not what's indicated). It's a steady, unbroken effect. The Widen is only applied once. I would say the same goes for these negative levels; the magic missile only bestows the effect once to every creature effected.
Look at enervation. It's 4th level spell, and it bestows 1d4 negative levels. But, the way this Fell drain thing is being interpreted (again, I don't know where it comes from), you would be able to use it on Magic Missile, at a 3rd level spell slot, and deal up to 5 negative levels. That's just nonsense. When in doubt about wording, go with the option that doesn't turn the players into gods.
These "Fell" feats are from the Libris Mortis.
IMHO, from my brief review of the spell and the feats, the feat's effect is applied ONCE (i.e., one negative level or is shaken for ONE minute).
However, if the target was hit multiple times with these meta-magic’d Fell spells, then I'd allow the effects to stack (multiple level drains, or Shaken -> Frightened -> Panicked, etc.)
These "Fell" feats are from the Libris Mortis.
IMHO, from my brief review of the spell and the feats, the feat's effect is applied ONCE (i.e., one negative level or is shaken for ONE minute).
However, if the target was hit multiple times with these meta-magic’d Fell spells, then I'd allow the effects to stack (multiple level drains, or Shaken -> Frightened -> Panicked, etc.)
I agree. Multiple spells, even of the same type, would stack, but the same casting of one spell wouldn't stack with itself, no matter how many projectiles hit the target, or how many times that target encountered it. That's far overpowered.
Also, look at the Warmage Edge- it sates that the bonus only applies once to effects such as magic missile, not once per missile.
Sorry if I was unclear on this. I was trying to point out that, while things like empower and maximize would apply to every missile, many (perhaps most) other abilities wouldn't; this goes for similar spells as well. Also, on the Acid Arrow point, what's being forgotten is that the acid doesn't burn, stop, burn, stop, burn again. Think about pouring acid on something. It may sizzle for a very long while, but how many times was it affected by acid? Once. So, there's just one more reason Melf's Acid Arrow wouldn't bestow a level each round. It's continuous, not stop and go.
I agree. Multiple spells, even of the same type, would stack, but the same casting of one spell wouldn't stack with itself, no matter how many projectiles hit the target, or how many times that target encountered it. That's far overpowered.
I agree that one target should be affected only once per casting of a Fell Drain spell. A Fell Drain Magic Missile cast by a 9th level caster would produce 5 missiles. Target all five of them at a 5th level fighter, and he takes 1 negative level. However, since the feat DOES state that ALL targets damaged by that casting of the spell take 1 negative level, so if that same Fell Drain Magic Missile was target against five 1st level fighters, one missile to each, then they each take a negative level and are each very dead. But then, IMHO opinion, a 9th level wizard/sorcerer casting a single 4th level spell SHOULD be able to annihilate 5 1st level fighters.
I think this gets trickier with continuous damage spells. Now, I agree with Saern about Melf's Acid Arrow. It's one long, continuous effect and the target should only take the initial negative level from a single casting. For something like Wall of Fire, though, I have to go with a different interpretation. Since anyone in the radius of that spells effect should have the opportunity to get out of the area, I would say that anyone who lingers within the spell's effect is going to take a negative level on every round that they take damage.
Then of course there's this to consider, as far as balance goes: how easy is it to negate damage from continuous damage spells every round? An Acid Arrow or Wall of Fire is pretty easily nullified by the application of a 2nd or 3rd level Abjuration spell. Because of the Fell Drain feat's wording, if for any reason your target doesn't take damage from the spell, they're not taking the negative level either.
Just my ideas on the matter.
I agree. Multiple spells, even of the same type, would stack, but the same casting of one spell wouldn't stack with itself, no matter how many projectiles hit the target, or how many times that target encountered it. That's far overpowered.
I agree also, the draining effect only affects the target once, so melf's acid arrows would not bestow multiple level drains.