I have a quick question about the Druid's Wildshape ability for anyone who cares to offer an opinion.
In the first part of the Wildshape description it states that the ability is the same as the Polymorph spell excepted as noted in the ability description. In the Polymorph spell description it states that the user of the spell takes on the creature type of whatever shape is assumed. Back to the Wildshape description: skipping down to the bottom of the description it states that the druid can assume the form of an elemental but retains her own creature type. Thats the only place in the ability description it makes this distinction.
So, my question is: does the druid assume the "Animal" & "Plant" creature types when assuming those forms?
Personally I think this would be very cool for the druid. However, given the Elemental exception I can see how how some would argue for limiting this ability. I'm curious to recieve your opinions.
Cheers,
C.
Yep, you got it right. The only exception is when the druid uses her wildshape to take the form of an elemental. This means, for example, that a wildshaped druid is a valid target for any spell that requires an animal or plant - awaken comes to mind, for example. ;)
So it follows that, as a plant - say a shambling mound, the druid is immune to poison, stunning, critical hits and all the rest. Right.
If you have a druid with the Natural Spell feat and wildshaped into a big nasty plant monster - well, that sounds awfully dangerous to me. Very cool mind. I just can't help feeling like I'd be cheating somehow. Even as a DM. Especially if the druid got all supped-up for a battle (especially: Greater Magic Fang [which lasts for hours and can be cast before hand], Barkskin, Protection From Energy and Produce Flame). This isn't even min/maxing. One feat selection and a few standard spells does the trick.
Any nay sayers?
Cheers,
C.
Also, if the Druid takes on the creature type for animals and plants, what's the rationale for losing it as an elemental? Why only the elemental and nothing else?
C.
a wildshaped druid is a valid target for any spell that requires an animal or plant - awaken comes to mind, for example. ;)
This is the kind of thing that makes me think WotC forgot something. As for the other DM in our group.... I'm pretty sure I'd just get the look that says "ya, right".
Cheers,
C.
a wildshaped druid is a valid target for any spell that requires an animal or plant - awaken comes to mind, for example. ;)
This is the kind of thing that makes me think WotC forgot something. As for the other DM in our group.... I'm pretty sure I'd just get the look that says "ya, right".
I'm not seeing that combo as broken. Awaken is a 5th level spell that would effectively give a druid wildshaped into a animal +1d3 CHA and +2HD. Not that great for a 5th level spell. It would give a druid wildshaped into a tree, what, a move speed and senses?
It would give a druid wildshaped into a tree, what, a move speed and senses?
A druid can't wild shape into a tree; a plant creature has to have wisdom and charisma scores.
a wildshaped druid is a valid target for any spell that requires an animal or plant - awaken comes to mind, for example. ;)This is the kind of thing that makes me think WotC forgot something. As for the other DM in our group.... I'm pretty sure I'd just get the look that says "ya, right".I'm not seeing that combo as broken. Awaken is a 5th level spell that would effectively give a druid wildshaped into a animal +1d3 CHA and +2HD. Not that great for a 5th level spell. It would give a druid wildshaped into a tree, what, a move speed and senses?
Not broken? Remember that the effects of Awaken are permanent, and the druid can always regain the animal type with a new wildshape use and cast it again, and again, and again ... ad nauseam. So, the druid would get a new CHA bonus and Bonus HD with each new casting.
No, allowing that combo only leads to madness.
a wildshaped druid is a valid target for any spell that requires an animal or plant - awaken comes to mind, for example. ;)This is the kind of thing that makes me think WotC forgot something. As for the other DM in our group.... I'm pretty sure I'd just get the look that says "ya, right".I'm not seeing that combo as broken. Awaken is a 5th level spell that would effectively give a druid wildshaped into a animal +1d3 CHA and +2HD. Not that great for a 5th level spell. It would give a druid wildshaped into a tree, what, a move speed and senses?Not broken? Remember that the effects of Awaken are permanent, and the druid can always regain the animal type with a new wildshape use and cast it again, and again, and again ... ad nauseam. So, the druid would get a new CHA bonus and Bonus HD with each new casting.
No, allowing that combo only leads to madness.
I've actually ran across this in a game as a player once not too long ago. The easy solution is to simply restrict the spell effects. Awaken only affects plants/animals (Don't have the book ready to hand at the moment...) When the druid changes back to human (Or other) form, thent he bonuses, granted to the plant form, would not carry over. At least that is how we played things out. So the druid could be awoken while a Shambling Mound, but the effects would only last as long as the wild shape.
Not broken? Remember that the effects of Awaken are permanent, and the druid can always regain the animal type with a new wildshape use and cast it again, and again, and again ... ad nauseam. So, the druid would get a new CHA bonus and Bonus HD with each new casting.
No, allowing that combo only leads to madness.
Doesn't awaken have a 24 hour casting time? That's an awfully long time to sit around and wait for a few points. Plus, can you even cast it on sentient plants?
(anyone got a PHB handy :) )
...a wildshaped druid is a valid target for any spell that requires an animal or plant - awaken comes to mind, for example. ;)
The awaken spell comes with some parameters that do not make sense if the caster himself is the target of the spell. First off, the target gets a random 3d6 Intelligence score.
Secondly, the awakened druid with scrambled intelligence can speak only one language that he knows (which becomes recursive if you think too hard about it) plus 1 per point of intelligence bonus.Also, casting awaken on yourself would turn you into a magical beast (augmented animal) permanently, as well as the scrambled Intelligence, +1d3 unnamed bonus to Charisma and +2 HD (which the spell does not say if they are d8s for being an animal at the time of casting or d10s for becoming a magical beast).
Seeing as wish, which is 4 levels higher, grants (at 20 to 60 times the cost in XP to get the same value) an inherent bonus that caps at +5 (and no other extras with that same casting), it becomes easy to see that, while not explicitly written, druids should not be allowed to cast this spell on themselves while in wild shape.
Any easy way to unbreak the spell is to modify polymorph to say thus:
The subject's creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form and it gains the augmented subtype.
And then alter Awaken to say thus:
Target: tree or unaugmented animal touched.
That solves everything nicely, I think.
Doesn't awaken have a 24 hour casting time? That's an awfully long time to sit around and wait for a few points. Plus, can you even cast it on sentient plants?
(anyone got a PHB handy :) )
Awaken does indeed have a 24 hour casting time. As for valid targets, here's the target line in the SRD:
"Target: Animal or tree touched"
So plant creatures are out, but trees are OK. Maybe this is where treants come from? ;)
***
Certainly, you can discuss fixing polymorph and it's cousins - if you can fix it, all the more power to you. Most of these problems don't happen in the "typical" game - but that's because most DMs will simply say, "That's stupid - you can't do it." And that's the end of it. That doesn't mean, though, that the abuse isn't in the rules; it just means that group is opting to ignore it.
A large part of the problems (at least in my opinion) with shapechanging magic is the inheritance of the type and subtype. That's bad. Coming in a close second is the fact that you gain more than you lose. I'll need to dig around for references, but bascially you can layer different castings of polymorph onto yourself and pick up all sorts of cool bonuses, feats, abilities, etc.
There's a ton of cheese available in shapechanging - whether it's the polymorph related spells or wildshape. It takes a lot of work, though, to really find it, so most groups don't have to deal with too much of it.
I'll see if I can dig up some references for some of the layering cheese - either from wildshape or polymorph any object. It's an interesting read. :)
<So, my question is: does the druid assume the "Animal" & "Plant" creature types when assuming those forms?
Personally I think this would be very cool for the druid. However, given the Elemental exception I can see how how some would argue for limiting this ability. I'm curious to recieve your opinions.>
Yes, they get the "Plant" or "Animal" subtype when assuming the form of a plant creature or animal.
As for keeping their subtype when in elemental form, it allows for the druid to be affected by spells that elementals would not. It also means that they can be sneak attacked, flanked, and other nasty things that elementals just do not have to worry about.
As for the Awaken spell, since it's not a Target: Personal spell, you would need another Druid in the party or allied to it who would then have to have it prepared. I also believe that the DM would have to allow for it to be cast, since it does take 24 hours to cast... when you're the DM anything can happen in 24 hours.
As for keeping their subtype when in elemental form, it allows for the druid to be affected by spells that elementals would not. It also means that they can be sneak attacked, flanked, and other nasty things that elementals just do not have to worry about.
Why make the distinction for the Elemental and not the Plant form. Plants limit the types of spells the druid could be affected by. Plants can't be sneak attacked, flanked etc...
It's not a big deal but it makes me wonder. Its a thing that makes me go: Hmmmm.
Cheers,
C.
Why make the distinction for the Elemental and not the Plant form. Plants limit the types of spells the druid could be affected by. Plants can't be sneak attacked, flanked etc...
It's not a big deal but it makes me wonder. Its a thing that makes me go: Hmmmm.
Cheers,
C.
I believe it's because plants still need to breathe, while elementals do not. It's one of the main differences between the plant and elemental sub-types.
There might also be a second reason as well. Elementals technically have no souls, or should I say are all soul-stuff. It'd be a nightmare for the DM should the druid be killed in elemental form and the only thing to bring the character back is something as powerful as True Resurrection.
Hope this helps,
Sharpe
There might also be a second reason as well. Elementals technically have no souls, or should I say are all soul-stuff. It'd be a nightmare for the DM should the druid be killed in elemental form and the only thing to bring the character back is something as powerful as True Resurrection.
Now that is some interesting reasoning. I'm not sure the rules bear this out as I'm pretty sure the druid reverts to her natural for when killed. None the less, you have to put on your roleplaying hat and think like a druid to come up with that kind of thing.
Thanks for the perspective.
C.
I think a tougher question to answer definitively is how you remembered lyrics to 'things that make you go hmmm.'
Wow. That's almost as old as 'everyone walk the dinosaur.' ;)
I think a tougher question to answer definitively is how you remembered lyrics to 'things that make you go hmmm.'
Wow. That's almost as old as 'everyone walk the dinosaur.' ;)
LOL!
You know, I make references to things like that around the office all the time (we can rebuild him; you wouldn't like me when I'm angry; quick Bo, to the General Lee; and stuff like that) and I'm too used to be ignored for lack of context amoung the young'ins. Thanks Jade - way to sugar coat the aging process. ;)
Cheers,
C.
I think a tougher question to answer definitively is how you remembered lyrics to 'things that make you go hmmm.'
Wow. That's almost as old as 'everyone walk the dinosaur.' ;)
LOL!
You know, I make references to things like that around the office all the time (we can rebuild him; you wouldn't like me when I'm angry; quick Bo, to the General Lee; and stuff like that) and I'm too used to be ignored for lack of context amoung the young'ins. Thanks Jade - way to sugar coat the aging process. ;)
Cheers,
C.
Preachin' to the choir, my man. I don't date myself with my vague pop references. I carbon date myself.