Is anyone else interested in an Adventure Path that takes place in Eberron?
Although Greyhawk is supposedly "generic", from reading the Age of Worms overload I'm sure Keith Baker is going to have some time on his hands converting upcoming adventures. Greyhawk's religions, geography and politics appear to be ingrained into Age of Worms as much as an Eberron backdrop would be IMO. I think removing game mechanics like warforged, dragonmarks and action points would be as easy (or possibly easier) than adding them to an AP that doesn't take them into consideration.
Paizo's staff is headed by huge Greyhawk heads, so we'll probably never see a full adventure path with Eberron as the default backdrop. I hope conversion notes are provided, as this is the main reason why we're running Age of Worms (and why I finally subscribed to Dungeon).
Whether the next AP takes place in Eberron or not, which plots would fit well in the setting?
Good Stuff:
-Giants from a distant land return
-Fey attempt to destroy technology
-Far Realms or other (generic) Planar Invasion
-Undiscovered underwater realm plots world flood
Bad Stuff:
-Drow invasion from the Underdark
-The esoteric god must be killed
-Dragons war with each other
Is anyone else interested in an Adventure Path that takes place in Eberron?
I've not been lucky enough to play in an Eberron game... yet. However, I'd be interested in seeing some Eberron arcs. Whether or not DUNGEON decides to go with a full AP, they'd be interesting to me. As for an Eberron AP, "Sure, why not?" Heh, I can see the editors at DUNGEON trying to fit ideas for Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Eberron APs into their production schedule. That, and wondering how they'd do so and still have room for other stuff.
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Is anyone else interested in an Adventure Path that takes place in Eberron?
Personnally (here's me being tenacious again), I think that the next AP should be a revival of the Spelljammer campaign setting. The story could take place both on a world, and in the space around that world. From what little I know of Eberron, doesn't it have some sort of techno-magic thing going on? Seems to me that would fit great with Spelljammer.
I agree that a full-size Eberron AP will never appear in Dungeon, but if the Shackled City (and potentially Age of Worms) hardcover(s) sell very well, I could envisage WotC taking notice and doing a hardcover Eberron mega-adventure along the lines of RttToEE and City of the Spider Queen. I'm sure it wouldn't cover levels 1-20, but maybe something like 1-11 or 4-15. Maybe this is already being mulled over by WotC.
Personnally (here's me being tenacious again), I think that the next AP should be a revival of the Spelljammer campaign setting.
That's another "Eberron-friendly" plot:
-Sky is fallingThe first few adventures deal with meteors/shard increasing in frequency and encounters with alien beings from above. Mid range adventures revolve around obtaining a magical ship that can travel skyward.
I think the heavens should be something completely original though. Zero gravity, alien energy type, alien visitors, etc.
The BBEG doesn't have to be some weird creature though. Just make him an epic human wizard. He could have teleported his tower, or perhaps his entire community, up into the rings of Siberys (or insert other campaign setting celestial body) to harness unthinkable energy. In the end you battle through this giant fortress, with all types of uber elementals, golems and summoned creatures.
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Personnally (here's me being tenacious again), I think that the next AP should be a revival of the Spelljammer campaign setting. The story could take place both on a world, and in the space around that world. From what little I know of Eberron, doesn't it have some sort of techno-magic thing going on? Seems to me that would fit great with Spelljammer.Is anyone else interested in an Adventure Path that takes place in Eberron?
I personally think you hit on a great idea right there. I know that in Dungeons #123, #124 and #125 there is an Eberron arc that deals with finding large dragonshards and stopping a baddie from destroying Sharn.
Those three right there could actually be used to form the basis of leading the characters off into adeventures in the Ring of Siberys. Of course, it would take a little tweaking and wouldn't be a full AP, but all in all, very inspiring.
NOOOOOO!!!!!!
(Nothing against the setting or Eberron's fans, but since I don't own the setting, nor want to buy it...)
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Mike, can you be more constructive?
Do you feel it would be too challenging to convert Eberron to your backdrop of preference? If so what elements cause the most frustration? These are the elements an Eberron adventure path should try to avoid. You can have great adventures with Eberron as the default area without chasing a lightning rail, hitching a ride on an airship or bumping into a warforged at every street corner.
If you wanted to run an Eberron adventure path in a different setting, what adventure ideas would you want the AP to avoid?
Mike, can you be more constructive?
Do you feel it would be too challenging to convert Eberron to your backdrop of preference? If so what elements cause the most frustration? These are the elements an Eberron adventure path should try to avoid. You can have great adventures with Eberron as the default area without chasing a lightning rail, hitching a ride on an airship or bumping into a warforged at every street corner.
If you wanted to run an Eberron adventure path in a different setting, what adventure ideas would you want the AP to avoid?
What, my screams weren't constructive enough?
Converting Eberron is about as difficult as converting Dark Sun. Which is to say it ain't fun.
Some of the PC and NPC races do not translate well or easily to standard/generic D&D campaign settings. Some of the background/history and magic/"technology" of Eberron likewise just don't translate well.
Get rid of these elements, you negate the desire to use Eberron as the setting at all.
One adventure every other issue for Eberron is fine.
But to devote the amount of pages that an adventure path would take from a year's worth of issues is just too much for DMs who have no interest in the setting. And more exposure will not equate to more interest and sales. I've already spent more than enough on Game Setting A. My wallet and interest just won't allow me to consider Game Setting B.
Your last line in the quote above is moot. I have NO interest in Eberron or any new game setting.
A generic setting is best, since you can more easily place into it elements of the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, or Eberron.
But to take those elements out and make the adventure still run well, still have a unique flavor (the flavor of the setting, probably) is sometimes too difficult to be worth the effort.
So I say again, in all constructivness, "NOOOOOOOO!!!!!"
(Please God, please Erik, NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!)
Get rid of these elements, you negate the desire to use Eberron as the setting at all.
I disagree. I read Age of Worms and did not see these elements, yet I still desire to play it in Eberron.
Are you saying that you can't write an Eberron AP without throwing in trains, warforged or dragonmarks? I disagree. Eberron is more than these things. If you compare ANY two settings there will generally be more differences in culture, geography, history, cosmology, religion and tone than simple elements of magic and technology.
From reading AoW overload, this is not "generic" stuff. There are a large number of fundamental national, racial, legal and historical assumptions. If you want to find the most fun out of these adventures you should see them from the eyes of the designers and have prior knowledge of Greyhawk to fill in the blanks. Converting AoW to Eberron to capture that spirit of familiarity is as difficult as migrating an Eberron AP to Greyhawk. IMO it's even more difficult because Eberron has far less background material to draw from.
When some say "generic", they really mean "standard" or "default". Standards can and do change. Others say Greyhawk adventures are generic because you can "place them anywhere". I find this untrue. If I created a campaign with no wizards, or no clerics, or no elves or dwarves, would you think that was easy to convert to Greyhawk? If you ran a campaign with no clerics, and you see a cleric in an AP, it would be just as much work to replace him as it would to add a cleric in an AP without them. A few will say that generic only uses the core books, but you can find a variety of creatures in AoW that are from other sourcebooks in here (especially in the backdrop article).
My last point is very relevant. If you saw an adventure path that did not say "Eberron" on it (as this Greyhawk one does not say "Greyhawk") and read through the material without knowing it was Eberron, what elements would clash with your style of play? Forget Eberron completely. What do you want the APs to avoid?
Mike, can you be more constructive?
...You can have great adventures with Eberron as the default area without chasing a lightning rail, hitching a ride on an airship or bumping into a warforged at every street corner.
I'm not sure I buy that. OK I concede that such things are not integral to every Eberron adventure but if one is going out of their way to make sure that all the stuff that makes Eberron a unique world with an appealing look and feel then why even bother?
I'm not sure I buy that. OK I concede that such things are not integral to every Eberron adventure but if one is going out of their way to make sure that all the stuff that makes Eberron a unique world with an appealing look and feel then why even bother?Mike, can you be more constructive?
...You can have great adventures with Eberron as the default area without chasing a lightning rail, hitching a ride on an airship or bumping into a warforged at every street corner.
I prefer Eberron's take on the role of traditional D&D races, classes, monsters, magic, psionics, metaphysics, magic items and religion. Warforged, trains and airships have nothing to do with these interpretations. I'm also a big fan of the history and political climate of the setting.
Also, D&D is filled with pieces of creative brilliance collected throughout the years. The d20 system is one of them. Greyhawk, FR and older settigns have tacked on these new ideas to their existing environment. Eberron is built with all of these pieces in mind. A lot of thought went into placing the fundamentals of TODAY'S D&D under the umbrella of a campaign setting.
Consider this quote from WotC at GenCon:
"Greyhawk is where RPGA is running living Greyhawk. It's not really what I would call a default setting anymore for D&D. We focused on D&D medieval fantasy world, we have elements of Eberron, etc. in the core books. "
I would love to see an adventure path that deals with a Far Realm invasion. Eberron would be a terrific default backdrop because of its unique history of aberrations. If you want a campaign where the sky is falling with magical crystals, Eberron has a lot to offer. If you want an invasion of psychic creatures into a non-psychic area, Eberron has a deep backstory for that too. None of these concepts involve elements unique to Eberron but all of them would be better "Eberron" stories by default, just as a campaign with an esoteric god walking the earth makes a better Greyhawk one.
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Takasi, I am with you! ;)
After all, what sense does it make, if WotC publishes a new setting, telling everyone and everywhere:"If something has a place in D&D it surely also has a place in Eberron!"
I can't tell how often I read this sentence (or one in the same sense), giving me he impression that it should be the new core-setting! And by the way, Eberron rocks!!! I didn't believe it first, but after my first campaign there - as I said IT ROCKS!
THERE HAS TO BE AN EBERRON AP - someday...
The point is you can plant Age of Worms or Shackled City in almost any D&D world, be it Eberron, Krynn, Toril, or a GM's world, and they work.
Can you as easily transplant an adventure in Shard and place it in a "default" (or whatever you want to call it) world? Or Toril, Krynn, Mike's Amazing World of Adventure and Wonder, or what have you?
Nope.
The purpose of the APs is for the largest number of DMs to get use from it.
The purpose of default/generic settings is for the largest number of DMs to get use from it.
The purpose of Eberrron adventures is to appeal to fans of Eberron.
Likewise with FR adventures. Ravenloft. Oriental Adventures.
Can a good DM find someting interesting or useful in an adventure set in any setting for any level of character? Probably.
But that's not your main point.
Your main point is to petition for support for an Eberron AP.
If the numbers support it, Dungeon will do it.
Likewise, if the numbers would support a FR AP.
Do those numbers support it?
Maybe.
Hope not, but maybe.
The point is you can plant Age of Worms or Shackled City in almost any D&D world, be it Eberron, Krynn, Toril, or a GM's world, and they work.
Can you as easily transplant an adventure in Shard and place it in a "default" (or whatever you want to call it) world? Or Toril, Krynn, Mike's Amazing World of Adventure and Wonder, or what have you?
Nope.
Why is that?
I think the miscommunication here is how you perceive an Eberron adventure path and how I perceive one.
I want an adventure path that's a little more "Eberron-friendly". Ideally, one that takes place in the world of Eberron and doesn't focus on the magical and technological differences in this world. From the material I've read I would guess 95% or more of the world of Eberron can be described using the core rulebooks. However, there are always elements, even when comparing settings that only use the core books, that are difficult to port to any setting. They generally involve religion, history, politics and geography.
The second major piece of this thread that you called irrelevant is very important IMO. Forget Eberron. What campaign do you play in? What elements in an adventure path would be difficult to bring over into your campaign? New races? New planes of existence? Technology?
Age of Worms is IMO a slightly clunky AP for Eberron. I'm very glad they have Keith Baker on board helping with conversion notes. We're enjoying it, but after seeing the overload supplement it's pretty obvious that the overall plot is heavily influenced by the cosmology, history and politics of Greyhawk. Even Erik Mona has said he wanted to keep the Greyhawk specific names throughout the adventures but he had to remove them.
Finally, the portability of an adventure usually has less to do with its backdrop setting and more to do with how it's written. An Eberron AP could be very portable, especially if built with conversion notes in mind.
Thanks for replying James. As I said in my first post, I knew this would not happen.
The rest of the topic of this thread revolves around comparing plots that are more "Eberron-friendly". As a suggestion, it would be awesome if you worked with someone like Keith Baker when developing the plot for the next path.
After reading the overload for AoW, it seems like Eberron DMs will have our work cut out for us. So far it doesn't read like it was entirely created with a generic backdrop in mind. Also, posts from Erik and others imply that the adventure was designed first and foremost with Greyhawk as the backdrop, not a nameless world (as a true world-neutral AP would be).
Whispering Cairn
This adventure is very good, and I don't see too many GH specific aspects in Diamond Lake. It's a low level, typical D&D town. An Eberron AP could have a town as equally portable. The majority of little Eberron towns lack warforged, changelings, and dragonshard magic items found in larger cities. I do have an issue with the location of Diamond Lake. When Paizo decided to pick this town, they looked at a map of Greyhawk and picked a location. To be truly generic, they should not have done this. Assumptions were made in developing the adventure about surrounding areas, areas that may or may not be in other settings. Instead of the Wind Dukes, a new race with no history in Greyhawk should have been chosen. Eberron doesn't include these beings or their history, so it has to be added to the setting. The selection of the Fields of Pesh was based on Greyhawk, not a new creation.
The Three Faces of Evil
Playing it right now, and it's pretty much a big fight scene. There isn't much of a backstory here to root in any setting. Vecna might have been better if presented as a generic wizard. The fact that the Ebon Triad is chosen seems to have less to do with the plot of this adventure and more as a throw back to the first AP. The Ebon Triad seems like an excuse to highlight three Greyhawk specific gods. (Yes, they're in the Player's Handbook, but they are more like examples than truly generic, especially when an adventure goes into more detail on their rituals and practices.)
Encounter at Blackwall Keep
This is a great generic story. The only issue I might have is with the geography. I'm curious to see how Keith Baker converts this one, but the supplement is late (again).
The Hall of Harsh Reflections
The only problem in the brief overview in Overland is assumption of relationship between drow and illithid. I'm sure there will be a conversion for this.
The Champion's Belt
From the overload, there is another easily portable plot. It's hard to miss with gladiator games. I'll have to read the actual adventure though to see what assumptions are made about the law of the games though.
A Gathering of Winds
Another dungeon crawl, I'm only worried about how much time they devoted to the Rod of Seven Parts backstory drawn from Greyhawk's history.
The Spire of Long Shadows
I'm not sure if Magepoint is a new area or one ported over from Greyhawk. The ponderings of the archmage might have some Greyhawk assumptions about Erythnul, Vecna and Hextor. I really don't like the fact that the first AP is connected with this adventure, as the events in the first one were not converted to other campaigns. I hope that the third AP doesn't do this.
The Age of Worms is highlighted in this adventure. I would recommend avoiding focusing an entire adventure on a period of time. World history, especially major events, are setting specific.
The Prince of Redhand
This is where the AP starts smelling more like a Greyhawk pet project and less like a portable campaign. It will be interesting to see how Redhand is handled in this adventure. What assumptions will be made about its laws, customs, politics and geography? It's a rather big assumption that DMs can simply plop a whole nation into their campaign. A lot of emphasis in Overload revolves around the leadership and surrounding area.
The Library of Last Resort
The Rift Canyon is a Greyhawk area. If the adventure was built with no setting in mind, a completely different area should have been chosen. This adventure begins to provide more details of the Rift Canyon, including its cliff dwellers. On the other hand, the island (being an island) seems portable from what little info is given here.
Kings of the Rift
Continuing its expanded coverage of the Rift Canyon, I wonder how much of this was developed for the AP and how much was simply dumped from past knowledge of Greyhawk. There are a large number of dragons in this adventure, so I'll need to wait until I read it to see how this is treated. Generally dragons don't gather together unless there is some organization, and organizations are usually setting material.
Into the Wormcrawl Fissure
As with the rest of Overload, I only have synopsis to go by and no background. This adventure will probably have a lot of background material to go on, because many of the events and monsters are complex (as should be the case with high level adventures). I'll have to read this material before determining if it's Greyhawk related or not, and how difficult it will be to port.
Dawn of a New Age
Same thing as above, except this is now a battle the god adventure. The tone of this adventure will vary depending on how religion is handled in a setting, and I think it will follow Greyhawk more than if no setting had been used. We will have to wait and see though. And as said earlier about Redhand, this adventure makes a huge setting assumption that might work very well in Greyhawk but possibly not elsewhere.
Will AP3 assume that the events in Redhand took place? I hope they don't. What is the purpose of doing this? If done, it would seem as though Dungeon is trying to further segment the D&D setting market by adding a new, "Greyhawk AP setting" that carries over from one AP to the next. To me, an adventure path is your entire campaign, from level 1 to 20. What purpose does it serve to carry these over from one path to another?
I think it would be better to have a generic path in FR or Eberron in the next one. Give other settings the same chance, with conversion notes considered ahead of time The adventures can still be generic, using the setting only as much as it was in the first two APs.
Finally, does anyone know of anyone running Shackled City in Eberron? How difficult is it to do this? Can you go into some details and hurdles? Can anyone from Paizo comment on this?
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I'm going to be stubborn and keep on saying that Spelljammer would be a great AP. You could have the party start by tracking some mysterious goings on like caravan raids where the attackers seemed to come out of nowhere and then disappear. This could lead to the eventual discovery that they are using a spelljamming ship to make the attacks. Then it is up to the PCs to track down a way to follow the bad guys, which ultimately leads them to mysterious and dangerous ruins that contain an abandoned spelljamming ship. They can get the ship working and follow the bad guys to their asteriod (or moon) base where they engage in a final battle. This would work really well with mindflayers, and have the final opponent be an elder brain. Or beholders, with the big bad as a hive mother.
Now that is generic enough to fit in any world.
First, I agree. Eberron does need a large super-adventure. It probably needs several.
At this time, though, Dungeon's not going to be the place for it to show up.
Adventure Path III will be world-neutral in the same way that the first two were.
An Eberron adventure path would be great. But look on the bright side, which is that the world-neutral material could be made to have more of Eberron's flavor with a little work.
WaterdhavianFlapjack
I'm going to be stubborn and keep on saying that Spelljammer would be a great AP.
Well your certianly stubborn...I'd be more likely to take notice if you where not the only person calling for Spelljammer. Personally I thought the idea was intriguing but would never actually touch it with a 10 foot stick. D&D cosmonauts just always seemed way to over the top. I liked some of the monsters though.
First, I agree. Eberron does need a large super-adventure. It probably needs several.
At this time, though, Dungeon's not going to be the place for it to show up.
Adventure Path III will be world-neutral in the same way that the first two were.
Well it certianly could use something like this. I just picked up Whispers of the Vampires Blade. A very interesting look and feel so far in this. If Pazio did some kind of super adventure in Eberron I'd have to say that I'd rather see it done by emphasizing this look and feel instead of dampening it down trying to make it more generic.
The only problem with Spelljammer now though is that it doesn't work the way it used to anymore. No more crystal spheres, no more connection to the same cosmology. It would take a lot of back story just to get the general directives in place, unless the whole thing is like "Shadows of the Spider Moon" and is all contained within the same system, which of course is doable, but probably more limited than what you had in mind.
I was dismayed enough to learn that Eberron would be getting as much coverage as it is in Dungeon - I think a full size AP would be a bad idea.
Dungeon is at its best when it provides generic adventures - with occassional forays into specific worlds. ALthough I understand the politics involved, Wizards should be providing this level of support for Eberron, and Dungeon as an independant should cater to the majority of its fans - which, believe it or not, are not the Eberron generation.
Cheers
Llowellen
