In Mona's AoW campaign, art director Sean Glenn plays a valley elf, Taan. We've sussed a nice sense of what they're all about these days, but we're having a harder time pinpointing what they look like. They're of hardier stock, but sources suggest they are almost identical, physically, to Grey Elves. I'm inclined to believe they "look" really different from other elves in dress and culture, rather than biologically. Anyone spent any time thinking about these guys, or know of a good source of data?
Less wispy, more rugged. I see them wearing rougher clothing, and perhaps having unkept hair. Perhaps more tan, possibly more muscular. They are the swimsuit modles where the other elves tend to be runway modles.
ASEO out
Less wispy, more rugged. I see them wearing rougher clothing, and perhaps having unkept hair. Perhaps more tan, possibly more muscular. They are the swimsuit modles where the other elves tend to be runway modles.
ASEO out
Haha! I like the last part of that description - very evocative, in a vague sense.
Haha! I like the last part of that description - very evocative, in a vague sense.Less wispy, more rugged. I see them wearing rougher clothing, and perhaps having unkept hair. Perhaps more tan, possibly more muscular. They are the swimsuit modles where the other elves tend to be runway modles.
ASEO out
It might have made more sence if I had spelled model correctly. Damn my lysdexia...
ASEO out
Of cource, Drow Elves only model fetish gear...It's in their contract...what can you do? ::sigh::
ASEO out
Well, according to the description in Monster Manual II (Gygax, Gary. TSR, Inc. Lake Geneva, WI. 1983.)
"Whether a seperate race of elvinkind or whether simply an offshoot of gray elves, the elves of the Valley of the Mage (valley elves) have distinctive features and characteristics. As tall as most humans, they are thin and have sharp, pointed features. They are reclusive and resent intrusion.If anything, they are neutral in alignment. Otherwise, they tend to follow the same characteristics of gray elves, although they do not use steeds other than horses as far as is known. All other sorts of elves, including the dark elves (drow), shun valley elves. The latter, in turn, dislike association with any races save perhaps gnomekind, whom they tolerate..."
"Valley elves use cooshee as guard animals (in wandering bands and in their lairs)."
"In the WORLD OF GREYHAWK fantasy world setting, valley elves are found only in the immediate vicinity of the Valley of the Mage. Bands of these elves have raided Bissel, Gran March, Ket, and the Grad Duchy of Geoff - probably at the behest of their leige. Their tolerance of gnomes probably stems from the fact that these demihumans alos serve the Mage of the Valley."
Hope that helps, but it looks as though they might be a bit taller and have a much different culture. Especially the xenophobia.
Valley Elves were detailed in Living Greyhawk Journal #2.
"As tall as most humans, they are thin with sharp and pointed features. Their hair is pale yellow in the summer, darkening to a rich gold in the winter months. The prefer loose and flowing garments and favor blues and greens." There is also a drawing of one in the issue.
Other stats indicated were:
Elven Traits (Ex): Valley elves have the same elven traits as high elves.
+4 racial bonus to Disguise checks when disguised as humans
-2 penalty to Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate checks involving elves of the other subraces
Favored Class: Wizard
Cannot be clerics of the Seldarine, but may may choose any other deity. (Article does not state what they did to cause that annoyance).
The stats were designed back in 3.0 days. In addition, some of the stats look garbled because it lists the example character as being a Rgr1/Wiz1, yet it looks like it is only a 1st level character.
Cannot be clerics of the Seldarine, but may may choose any other deity. (Article does not state what they did to cause that annoyance).
From the LGG, by Holian, Mona, SKR, & Weining:
"The valley elves were rejected not only by all other olvenfolk, but also by the gods of their race. No outsider has ever discovered the cause of this divine renunciation, and the elves will not speak of it. The drow hint that the valley elves allowed themselves to be bound in servitude to a powerful master, in exchange for knowledge from beyond the known planes. For this the drow despise them, saying that they were made slaves to a lie, while the drow believe that lies should be used only to enslave others. Regardless of the cause, the rift between the valley elves and their kindred is thought to date back to their earliest appearance on Oerth."
In WG12, IIRC, valley elves are said to worship Ehlonna.
Two more interesting points on valley elves:
1) The LGG hints that they may be responsible for the theft of the Cup & Talisman of Al'Akbar in 219 CY (see the entry on Ekbir) & the valley elf king may have left those items with the Duke of Geoff circa 500 CY (see the entry on the Valley of the Mage).
2) The valley elves are closely related to the semi-canonical snow elves of the Crystalmists, detailed way back in Dragon #155. Oddly enough, after leaving Geoff (see above), the valley elf royal family were last seen entering the Crystalmists.
Hey!
When I, like, totally saw the title, I thought to myself, oh-my-gawd! It's like elves! Living here! Since when could they afford property here? Next you'll be telling me, they're, like, wearing Prada. So anyway, then I was like, oh, they mean, like, something totaly different. So I was like, oh, okay. Whatever.
;P
Peace,
tfad
In WG12, IIRC, valley elves are said to worship Ehlonna.
Have you read this module (the one on the valley of the mage, I take it)? How is it?
Hey!
When I, like, totally saw the title, I thought to myself, oh-my-gawd! It's like elves! Living here! Since when could they afford property here? Next you'll be telling me, they're, like, wearing Prada. So anyway, then I was like, oh, they mean, like, something totaly different. So I was like, oh, okay. Whatever.
;P
Peace,
tfad
Darn! You like, beat me to it! Okay?
Darn! You like, beat me to it! Okay?
Hey!
You were totally thinking the same as me? Like, oh-my-gawd! We're SO telekinetic!
;P
Sorry for being slightly off topic there. This thread does remind me of something I read (I think here, on these boards). And have to agree with; why is it that when a non-human (Demi-human? ;) ) lives in a different place, they need to become a different sub-species. But all humans are a like? I know some settings have regional differences (FR, WoT etc.), but most do not. And even then the change is never as drastic. Compare, say, Aquatic Elves to (what would be) Pirate Humans. Gills vs. a +2 to Profession (Sailor) checks. Doesn't seem to make sense given that the PHB says we're (humans) all so adaptable.
It has been argued (rather successful'y) that is because all these other species have been in their new environments for generations and humans are still 'young' in the world. But with an Elf's breeding cycle can you really believe it works like that? Perhaps then it's something to do with magic? Again I'm not believing it - who has the most sorcerers? Humans. And since the 'other, magic, half' can come from anywhere (Dragons, Elementals etc.), the human half is again the most adaptable.
So what do I believe? I think it all comes from the Half Elves. Human adaptability plus the racial traits of the other parent (this works to explain those 'snow orcs' and 'lava orcs' etc. too). Add an environment. Add several generations of breeding amongst themselves and a classic '2nd class citizen mass exodus' story and you're away!
Although even that doesn't make 100% sense outside of my group's homebrew settings.
[/EARLY MORNING AND LONG RUNNING RANT]
Peace,
tfad
Doesn't seem to make sense given that the PHB says we're (humans) all so adaptable.
It is not that humans adapt to the terrain they're living in, it's that they adapt the terrain to suit them.
It is not that humans adapt to the terrain they're living in, it's that they adapt the terrain to suit them.
Hey!
Yeah, I get that. But why do all the other species seem to adapt to the terrain when humans don't?
Maybe it's because they're too busy building castles? ;P
Peace,
tfad
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Hey!
When I, like, totally saw the title, I thought to myself, oh-my-gawd! It's like elves! Living here! Since when could they afford property here? Next you'll be telling me, they're, like, wearing Prada. So anyway, then I was like, oh, they mean, like, something totaly different. So I was like, oh, okay. Whatever.
;P
Peace,
tfad
I think that was a joke song that was published in Dragon :)
Mike
Darn! You like, beat me to it! Okay?Hey!
You were totally thinking the same as me? Like, oh-my-gawd! We're SO telekinetic!
;P
Sorry for being slightly off topic there. This thread does remind me of something I read (I think here, on these boards). And have to agree with; why is it that when a non-human (Demi-human? ;) ) lives in a different place, they need to become a different sub-species. But all humans are a like? I know some settings have regional differences (FR, WoT etc.), but most do not. And even then the change is never as drastic. Compare, say, Aquatic Elves to (what would be) Pirate Humans. Gills vs. a +2 to Profession (Sailor) checks. Doesn't seem to make sense given that the PHB says we're (humans) all so adaptable.
It has been argued (rather successful'y) that is because all these other species have been in their new environments for generations and humans are still 'young' in the world. But with an Elf's breeding cycle can you really believe it works like that? Perhaps then it's something to do with magic? Again I'm not believing it - who has the most sorcerers? Humans. And since the 'other, magic, half' can come from anywhere (Dragons, Elementals etc.), the human half is again the most adaptable.
So what do I believe? I think it all comes from the Half Elves. Human adaptability plus the racial traits of the other parent (this works to explain those 'snow orcs' and 'lava orcs' etc. too). Add an environment. Add several generations of breeding amongst themselves and a classic '2nd class citizen mass exodus' story and you're away!
Although even that doesn't make 100% sense outside of my group's homebrew settings.
[/EARLY MORNING AND LONG RUNNING RANT]
Peace,
tfad
I was thinking along these same lines when I started reading, but I wasn't going to say anything. However, you opened the door, so I'll follow.
Wood elves and high elves. What else do you need? Maybe gray elves, though I'd be inclined just to make normal high elves get the -2 Str/+2 Int to begin with. That way, you have two different "races", though the difference can simply be chocked up to the culture they are raised in. You capture the nature-loving, druidic aspect of elves, and the sophisticated, spell-slinging version as well.
But no. No, that can't be. This tribe of elves decided to move 100 miles to the north or south or into the planet or behind the moon or up their own rear ends or what not, and now they are COMPLETELY different, yet amazingly the same. I'm not sure what the fascination with making a bajillion sub-races is with everything other than humans, but I hate it. It makes no sense whatsoever. It all seems like some lame way to create new player options or twist the previously established conventions to get the NPC with the stats you want. Either way, the cheese is suffocating.
Surprisingly enough, or maybe not, I wouldn't mind it at all if that many racial options were presented in a setting that featured just humans, or even any one race, be it gnomes or orcs or squirrel-people. Then it would be obvious that the differences are purely cultural, and it's far more believable that there are enough radically different cultures to produce such variations. But it's near impossible for me to buy that there are these many different racial variations in every race but humans, who are supposed to be the most morphic of them all.
Scratch that. You see these in every race that would make a good PLAYER race. I don't see many minotaur variants, or white dragon subraces, or alternate versions of a carrion crawler. Just demihuman (where does "demi" in that come from, anyway?) races that would make good PCs.
I also get annoyed with the amount of biological difference chocked up between common races. +4 to Disguise checks when acting human? What? When you've got a behir on one hand, a mind flayer on the other, a tojanida floating around over there somewhere, and an owlbear in this general area, how is it that humans, and SOMETIMES elves, are the only things that happen to get that type of attention. Just don't do it, period! It's stupid!
Sorry, just pretend you were on Place Your Rant Here.
Surprisingly enough, or maybe not, I wouldn't mind it at all if that many racial options were presented in a setting that featured just humans, or even any one race, be it gnomes or orcs or squirrel-people. Then it would be obvious that the differences are purely cultural, and it's far more believable that there are enough radically different cultures to produce such variations. But it's near impossible for me to buy that there are these many different racial variations in every race but humans, who are supposed to be the most morphic of them all.
That's one thing I like about the Conan RPG, it has about thirty different types of humans with racial and cultural variants, so Zamorans have like -2 to STR +2 to DEX or something, while Vanirmen might have +2 STR -2 WIS.
Plus the subraces will have abilities like resist cold weather, combat bonuses, or bonus feats. I recommend it if you want ready made human subraces in your homebrew, and with all the aquatic elves and desert orcs running around, why the hell not hey?
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It is not that humans adapt to the terrain they're living in, it's that they adapt the terrain to suit them.
HIJACK ALERT.
True, but doubtless true of all the intelligent races. Even the Native Americans and other hunter-gatherers have a big impact on the environment, altering it for their own requirements. Since elves are supposed to have a sophisticated culture, albeit close to nature, they would probably have the same impact.
On the other hand, there are "subraces" of humans as there are different races, albeit able to freely interbreed (I'm talking biology here, hence the rather unromantic terms). Without wanting to get into racial politics, their environment obviously had an impact upon their current characteristics. The average person of African descent is probably taller than the average person of Asian descent, for example. Different stat modifiers? Who knows - the stat modifiers are gaming artifacts, not an attempt to give biological verisimilitude.
So what conclusion can be drawn. Um, dunno. It's a fantasy game - so anything goes, I suppose.
END OF HIJACK.