Did you run Ulavant as a ghoul or a lacedon? I think it would be more challenging and more logical if he had a swim speed. IIRC he died underwater right? It seems kind of silly to see this horrifying monster doing a doggy paddle and failing swim checks. Also, if he were a ghoul wouldn't he rather swim to dry land where he would have an easier time hunting for food? One might think he was afraid of the water elemental, but if the elemental had wanted to destroy him he would be destroyed IMO.
Also, did you have him awake and moving around when the PCs encounter him? I'm considering having him try to bluff the heroes into thinking he's just a floating corpse, then when they investigate his eyes open and he attacks. Is it fair to modify his stats to do this? If he was a lacedon, he really has no need for skill ranks in climb and jump. Could I replace them with bluff (+5 total with charisma) and listen (+6 with wisdom)? Is it believable that an undead floating corpse would sit and wait patiently (perhaps years) for something to appear?
I went ahead and made him a lacedon. It made sense to me, since he died underwater. I didn't bother changing his skills or anything else... just the swim speed gives him quite an advantage. You might want to consider upping the CR by 1 because of the situation.
Squid
IIRC wasn't the CR upped from 1 to 2 anyway because they're underwater?
Considering how difficult it is to shoot anything underwater, the only major advantage of the swim speed is that there's almost no way the party can get away from him. By default a lacedon is CR 1, and considering that it's usually only encountered underwater I think CR 2 is more than appropriate.
Did anyone have a party member drown? How difficult is it to go Baywatch and rescue someone? I'm guessing carrying capacity doesn't change underwater, so most characters will have a heavy load. This would put them at -6 on their swim checks with a movement speed of 5 feet per round (max 15 feet with run). Do any of your characters have ranks in swim? None of mine do.
Also, do paralysis rounds stack? For example, if Ulavant hits someone and paralyzes them, on his next attack can he inflict additional rounds of paralysis?
A lacedon is a ghoul variant. It's listed in the Monster Manual, page 119. The only difference is that a lacedon has a swim speed of 30 feet and are only found in aquatic environments.
My vote is that he's a ghoul who happens to be underwater. I've never truly understood the lacedon anyway: they're undead, does it need gills to breathe or something? I tend to use lacedons in my campaigns as ghouls of aquatic species. The fact that you happened to die underwater shouldn't suddenly make you able to swim fast.
The fact that you happened to die underwater shouldn't suddenly make you able to swim fast.
Exactly. How does a human body learn to swim faster by being undead? Maybe if it had more negative plane energy to increase the power of its strokes..but, lets not make things difficult.
I like the explanation that a lacedon is an acquatic humanoid gone ghoulish.
Exactly. How does a human body learn to swim faster by being undead?
When the human body becomes a ghoul it "learns" several new tricks, including paralysis. It's not too far fetched to assume that a person who dies from drowning or from the attacks of a water elemental can gain the ability to move in water as easily as they did on land.
The creature is probably going to look very bloated and water logged anyway. It would look kind of goofy failing swim checks. A swim speed could explain some type of "supernatural" movement in the water, as if he's running on land but in three dimensions. It just seems creepier and for better effect.
A creature may have very well adapted to its environment over the 60 years that Ulavant would have been there, but this is assuming that ghouls have the capacity to learn. If he were a zombie, would he be there as a "drowned one" (or whatever those Ravenloft ones were called)? I also don't know that the paralysis is what I would call a learned trick - it's an inherent ability of that particular undead species.
As far as failing swim checks, he certainly won't drown so he could very easily walk/run across the floor. I might even argue he could double move as a standard move action because undead don't tire and he therefore wouldn't be as restricted by having to move against the weight of the water. Would he look goofy failing to move about like a fish when he's been living underwater? Perhaps. But plenty of lesser undead look a bit odd when outside their natural element. Personally, I don't know why he didn't relocate to dry land, where could have at least eaten the occassional wolf.
A creature may have very well adapted to its environment over the 60 years that Ulavant would have been there, but this is assuming that ghouls have the capacity to learn.
Unlike zombies and skeletons, ghouls have above average intelligence. They have a fairly large number of skills with learned ranks.
I also don't know that the paralysis is what I would call a learned trick - it's an inherent ability of that particular undead species.
A swim speed is not a learned trick either, it's an inherent ability of lecadon. If he's a lecadon then he didn't learn how to swim anymore than he learned how to paralyze people.
Contributor
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I have to agree with LarryMac on one point. If Ulavant was changed to a ghoul upon his death, he probably would have had to leave the Cairn. This is, of course, based on my own vision of ghouls. Mythologically, ghouls (or ghala) were "eaters of the dead," creatures who feasted upon corpses. They're one reason why cultures began burying their dead several feet under the ground or cremating them. It was only in the absence of actual corpses that a ghoul would have to improvise and kill a living person...thus creating a corpse on which to feed.
Given the fact that in D&D ghouls are usually out to kill the PCs, it's easy to forget what niche they fill as undead. I'm not sure what happens to a ghoul that can't feed, but based on the history of the Cairn, it's safe to say that Ulavant hasn't eaten much in at least sixty years. How long would he have waited before venturing out of that room? So from a purely thematic standpoint, I think that perhaps a ghoul isn't the best choice for this encounter. But when you're looking for an appropriate CR, your choices for interesting undead are somewhat limited.
As far as having/needing a swim speed, the ghoul should be just fine without it. If you consider the theatrical images we have of undead moving through water you don't normally see them fumbling around. Zombies tend to move slowly and methodically by walking on the bottom of the sea or whatever, and they don't have to paddle or look silly in any way. Perhaps the ghoul could move in a similar fashion or even "drift" toward them, then suddenly lunge at the characters, swimming as well as a human. That would scare the bejeezus out of me. ;)
Paris, I agree with the thematic issues. Why wouldn't he have eaten the dead body in the nearby room, especially when the descriptive text says the dead body was partially gnawed on?
One possible explanation is the water elemental. Perhaps when the insane water creature discovered that Ulavant had returned it tried to kill him again. Ghouls are pretty smart, and the description of Ulavant says he's still the trickster and show off he was when he was alive. Ulavant could have easily feinted death, tricking the elemental into leaving him alone. Can an undead ghoul practice enough patience to wait an eternity for an elemental to die? From a rules perspective, there's nothing that requires a ghoul to feed, so he could theoretically wait in the tomb forever.
Since he can speak, you could even have add a little roleplaying to the NPC. "You have delivered me from the cursed elemental. Now you will deliver me from the cursed hunger!"
Zombies tend to move slowly and methodically by walking on the bottom of the sea or whatever, and they don't have to paddle or look silly in any way. Perhaps the ghoul could move in a similar fashion or even "drift" toward them, then suddenly lunge at the characters, swimming as well as a human. That would scare the bejeezus out of me. ;)
The problem is there's no rules precedent for this. My players will ask why the ghoul doesn't have to roll a swim check. If he does roll a swim check and fail then the rules don't support a "drift". If I house rule drifting for the ghoul then they'll want to know why I can't let them drift like the ghoul; I'd rather stick with prewritten rules.
They party will develop their strategy based on whether the ghoul has to make swim checks. If they know they can't outswim him then they won't consider running away, whereas a swim check makes the ghoul MUCH slower.
A few people have raised some interesting questions about Ulavant I'd like to address.
Firstly, someone has raised the question about Ulavant and his dietary needs. In Libris Mortis ghouls and lacedons are diet dependent, which means they need to feed every 3d6 months or suffer some debilitating condition, such as lack of mobility, blindness, supression of special abilities, etc. If you use this rule Ulavant would have to feed regularly or be somehow drained or atrophied by his lack of food. Perhaps you could use this as a way of lessening the danger (by removing his paralysis ability), but its entirely up to individual DMs.
I'm not sure how Ulavant perished, but if he drowned he could very well rise as a lacedon. Though it doesn't state it specifically I'd say a lacedon's swimming ability is a function of its animation as an undead. Since it rises as an undead underwater it is blessed by the "dark powers" with the ability to swim. If Ulavant's domain was flooded after his death he should be counted as a normal ghoul instead.
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Personally, I don't know why he didn't relocate to dry land, where could have at least eaten the occassional wolf.
Can he get out?
I thought he was stuck down there, dependent on new blood activating the elevator?
At least, that's how I ruled, to justify why he was still there.
He isn't aware of a 'call elevator' button. If he was, he'd be off.
Firstly, someone has raised the question about Ulavant and his dietary needs. In Libris Mortis ghouls and lacedons are diet dependent, which means they need to feed every 3d6 months or suffer some debilitating condition, such as lack of mobility, blindness, supression of special abilities, etc. If you use this rule Ulavant would have to feed regularly or be somehow drained or atrophied by his lack of food. Perhaps you could use this as a way of lessening the danger (by removing his paralysis ability), but its entirely up to individual DMs.
There's quite a bit of food down there, if you're not fussy. Beetles, lots and lots of beetles, plus the nourishing glop, that they used to build their nest.
Does Libris Mortis specify that they must eat humanoid flesh?Paris, I agree with the thematic issues. Why wouldn't he have eaten the dead body in the nearby room, especially when the descriptive text says the dead body was partially gnawed on?
Indeed, that's why I had the Seeker bodies be stripped of their flesh, and marrow. Of course, the players may just assume the beetles did it...
It seems kind of silly to see this horrifying monster doing a doggy paddle and failing swim checks. Also, if he were a ghoul wouldn't he rather swim to dry land where he would have an easier time hunting for food? One might think he was afraid of the water elemental, but if the elemental had wanted to destroy him he would be destroyed IMO
I had him be a regular ghoul, and thus, need a Swim check. Yes, it means he's not a natural underwater, but he's still a lot more agile than my PCs in banded mail...he chooses to fight them underwater, as it evens the odds, as he doesn't need to breath, but they do, and it prevents spellcasters using vocal casting.
As for avoiding the elemental, I had him lie dormant for long periods. During these periods, he doesn't get attacked, since he registers on the elemental's senses as just an 'object'. Having the PCs blunder into the water and upset the elemental wakes him up to investigate...
My PCs stripped off their armor for this part. I just ran him as a regular ghoul, but really both PCs and ghoul can walk on the bottom. The water elemental was a bit tougher of a fight, although the paralysis can be nasty underwater.
Ghouls don't have to eat to sustain themselves--they are just driven by an insatiable hunger to eat human flesh. I don't think beetles or magic orange goo would be very satisfying at all.
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Well, it doesn't have to be satisfying, per se, just so long as it satisfies the curiosity of players who like to question how he's still alive.
And it gives him a reason to jump the PCs, for a bit of variety.
To paraphrase Paul Newman: "Why go upstairs for beetles, when you can have Dwarf at home?"
Peruhain: Did you name yourself after this figure?
No. I think somebody stole my name and gave it the figure. An interesting case of online "identity theft." :p
Actually, the name originated from an NPC bard in a campaign I have been running with my son for many years, since about 2001. I picked it to signify the storytelling element of my "gamer identity."
Edit: I've been using this username and avatar on this site since 2005, and also use it on other gaming boards, so it wouldn't surprise me if someone at Reaper thought it was cool and yoinked it. It seems a little too unique to be coincidental, though who knows.
Uluvant: what a let down.
The cleric and the paladin elected to explore the submerged rooms alone. They defeated the water elemental, and then the cleric entered Uluvant's chamber. Time for action!
Or so I thought.
As the cleric began to examine the lockers, I had Uluvant suddenly emerge from the gloom, and swing his first claw attack. He rolled a 1, and then the cleric of Pelor turned him.
Cue Uluvant scratching at the walls trying to escape.
Enter the paladin, who in a few blows dispatches the ghoul, robbing him of his Seeker ring and then forgetting about him.
For my player's, he was just a random ghoul, quickly defeated and forgotten. Such a pity! If only there was a way to bring his back story to light! Perhaps through Khellek, but none of the PC's are opting to wear the ring. So perhaps if they sell it, and Khellek learns of its resurgence...
Uluvant: what a let down.
The cleric and the paladin elected to explore the submerged rooms alone. They defeated the water elemental, and then the cleric entered Uluvant's chamber. Time for action!
Or so I thought.
As the cleric began to examine the lockers, I had Uluvant suddenly emerge from the gloom, and swing his first claw attack. He rolled a 1, and then the cleric of Pelor turned him.
Cue Uluvant scratching at the walls trying to escape.
Enter the paladin, who in a few blows dispatches the ghoul, robbing him of his Seeker ring and then forgetting about him.
For my player's, he was just a random ghoul, quickly defeated and forgotten. Such a pity! If only there was a way to bring his back story to light! Perhaps through Khellek, but none of the PC's are opting to wear the ring. So perhaps if they sell it, and Khellek learns of its resurgence...
Heh, fumbles happen, even for old ghouls. Also, your players got just the right characters at the right place to achieve an easy victory.
Did they got some water breathing magic? As you tell the story, it seems that they weren't really concerned about holding their breath, and had their full complement of armor and weapons.
This fight is way more stressful (and more of a memorable event) for characters diving into the darkness with nothing more than a dagger, longjohns and a lungful of air... That is, for the vast majority of first level characters without any access to waterbreathing magic.
Smarnil!
Your posts on Smenk, the Ebon Triad, and the Faceless One have given me much food for thought these past few days. Thanks so much for all the effort and thought you placed into Diamond Lake, all those years ago! I'm right on the cusp of having my PC's return to town, and upon doing so begin to truly interact with Smenk and the rest of them as they hunt the Land skeletons, tangle with Filge, and then slowly become aware of the true extent of corruption in town.
You were absolutely right in not being satisfied with some of the motivations and explanations. Smenk being allowed to view the whole secret complex in exchange for supplies that Dourstone himself could acquire? Given Smenk's predilection for taking over mines, you know he would have used this to acquire Dourstone's in a matter of weeks, framing him and sending the garrison below ground to clear our the cultists.
So I'm reading your posts, pondering the best approach, because like yours were, my players are pretty sharp, and will tease apart inconsistencies pretty quickly.
As for the PC's when they tackled the ghoul, they were completely naked but for their weapons, their source of light being a Light spell cast on the cleric's mace. But air was never a huge problem; they had double their constitution score in rounds to hold it which gave them each I think 32 rounds and 30. Even deducting an extra round for combat, they were able to clear the ghoul out and return to the stairs with about eight or so rounds worth of air in them. So, not a huge concern. Would have been very different if Uluvant hadn't fumbled though...
I made Ulavant a non specific undead caster. The only PC that went into the submerged area was a Warforged so breathingw as not a problem. He did almsot die though, he was a bit surprised with the Lightning Bolt I shot at him when he was only 2nd or 3rd level :-)
Tough, Dennis! You don't coddle your players, looks like.
I guess my quandary is that there's so much richness to the setting that I feel an urge to tease it all out for the PC's, especially at these lower levels when they're less able to just force their way through most social interactions with a few choice spells.
So with Uluvant, the Seeker Guild, Khellek's association and so forth--it's a rich little nugget to further deepen the fun of Diamond Lake.
What I might have happen is the following (inspired by some previous threads on this board). My PC's will go to Titwoad's to sell their loot before looking for the Land skeletons. I'll have Titwoad alert Smenk as to their newfound wealth, and he promptly buys up the deed to the Whispering Cairn, registers it with the cartographer and posts guards outside it.
The PC's then deal with Kullen, Filge, and upon returning to the Cairn find their progress blocked, both legally and physically. Smenk is trying to determine whether the Khellek group or the PC group will prove to be the best tool to use against Dourstone, and will be interacting with both, and allowing each to interact with the other. At that point Khellek might accuse the PC's of looting Seeker corpses and demand renumeration on behalf of his guild, revealing the Uluvant background.
(Going to say that Khellek led the group here to investigate Uluvant's disappearance 60 years ago, believing that the old explorer must have unearthed something hidden that did him in, which he now hopes to profit from in turn.)
Anyways! Just rambling here. It's lonely work being a DM.