I have a project I'm working on that's got me kind of stumped. I'm writing a module that involves altering the characters to child versions of themselves. We're talking about 6 year olds. Without giving away too much, I need to figure out the adjustments that need to be made to their Str, Dex, and Con scores. As they will still retain their adult minds and personalities, their other ability scores will remain as they were.
Page 109 of the PHB only gives modifiers for advancing in age, none for stepping significantly backward in age. My own thoughts are to impose a -2 on Dex and Con, but the Strength is what I'm really stuck on. A 6 year old kid is considerably weaker than an adult, so I was thinking a -6 modifier.
Any suggestions by other writers and rules enthusiasts is welcome. Please help!
I have a project I'm working on that's got me kind of stumped. I'm writing a module that involves altering the characters to child versions of themselves. We're talking about 6 year olds. Without giving away too much, I need to figure out the adjustments that need to be made to their Str, Dex, and Con scores. As they will still retain their adult minds and personalities, their other ability scores will remain as they were.
Page 109 of the PHB only gives modifiers for advancing in age, none for stepping significantly backward in age. My own thoughts are to impose a -2 on Dex and Con, but the Strength is what I'm really stuck on. A 6 year old kid is considerably weaker than an adult, so I was thinking a -6 modifier.
Any suggestions by other writers and rules enthusiasts is welcome. Please help!
Actually, before the PCs are 1st level characters, what are they? You cannot be born a 1st level Ranger, but if you a 1st level Commoner why does this not carry over to character generation? Design flaw anyone?
Actually, before the PCs are 1st level characters, what are they? You cannot be born a 1st level Ranger, but if you a 1st level Commoner why does this not carry over to character...
I agree that this is a big, ugly wart on the face of the D&D's design. The reasons are historical.
As written, all creatures get their racial hit dice, except for 1-hit-die Humanoids. Humanoids don't exist until they have a class. I guess a commoner child "trades in" his level of Commoner for a level of Ranger when he graduates, or something. Yuck.
In my campaign world, everyone takes a level of their race before their first class. There are issues (skill points, etc.) because the game wasn't designed that way, but I greatly prefer it.
An easy solution may be to just change them according to size catagory, per the Monster Manual pg 291. Dropping a PC from Mediuim to Small size would impose a -4 penalty to strength and a -2 to constitution. The dex, armor class, and attack bonus would actually go up.
As for birth onward class levels, I would just assume that children have less than one hit die, and when they finally acheive a full hit die at adulthood, that's when they pick up the 1st level class.
I hope that helps. :)
I've thought about these age adjustments before, and I'd suggest something like this.
Relative to an adult:
Infant: Down two size categories. Then, STR / 2, DEX / 4, INT / 4, CHA / 2
Toddler: Down one size category. Then, STR - 2, DEX - 2, INT / 2
Child: Down one size category.
Adolescent: no effect.
None of these downward adjustments should ever drop a score below 1. (Which would basically kill the character and make it impossible for an adult of their original, unadjusted scores to exist.)
Do the adjustments for size changes based on the info in the back of the Monster Manual.
Yea! Now I have codified my house rules. : )
Six year olds are on the low end of what I'd call a "child", compared to, say, a twelve year old, so you might tack on an additional STR - 2.
I like Robert and Chris's suggestions. That definitely works for me. One of my players' newly "child-ified" characters that started as a Medium human with Str 16, Dex 12, and Con 12 would then look something like this...
Small humanoid, +increase to AC, +1 increase to Atk, Base Spd 20 ft., Str 10 (I agree with tacking on the extra -2), Dex 14, and Con 12 (unchanged). All weapon damage decreased by one size category. Other stats are not important for what I need.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Rob's sugestions sound fine. There's just one little nitpick:
Kids generally gain adult strength at the end of their growth period. Say by the time they're 13-15. up to that time, they don't nearly have the strength of an average adult. I'd divide the child's strenth score by 2 and the toddler's by 3. You get a nice progression that way. Faster growth towards the end of childhood and all that.
b.t.w. I really miss the fact that I can't review what other people posted while typing my own message
In my campaign world, everyone takes a level of their race before their first class. There are issues (skill points, etc.) because the game wasn't designed that way, but I greatly prefer it.
Actually Rob, where did you get the rules for this? Is it in some book or are they house rules cause it sounds very cool.
*Hopes its not in a core rulebook for fear of looking stupid*
I've started campaigns in the past, and even a part of my current campaign with PCs starting out as level 1 commoners. I ran the Sunless Citadel this way. it is more difficult for the PCs, but my group is pretty experienced and took the chalenge for just that. Once the characters gained 500 Xp I let them level up. Their commoner level, whilethey get the benifits of it (Skills Hp and the like) does not count toward their total character level.
I've also had them play PC Warriors and experts. I ran a child character in my last campaign. The little girl was 8, and was a small character with -4 Str and -2 Dex. She had some extinuating circomstances (She'd basicly been living in crypt that had kept her from aging for 1000 years, and had a talking skull of her father's court wizard as a companion. She also had a merged psychie with a battlefield necromancer.) It made her a neat wise, yet creepy little girl.
ASEO out
Firstly, the whole class and level thing is easily explained away by using the Commoner NPC class as a base to which you add various things piece-meal so that it TRANSFORMS into a regular class. Easy.
Second, I like to use point-buy to explain various differences in my setting. I pair this with the examples given in the MM (everything is considered 'average', which equates to 15 point-buy).
Therefore, 80% of the population are 15 point-buy. These are your everyday people. No-one of note. These people tend never to go above 3rd-level in an NPC class, and even then, tend towards the weaker, commoner class. This is not a restriction but simply a reality of the limits of their abilities. You're unlikely to survive for very long if you face tough situations when you're an average Joe.
10% of the population have what it takes, in terms of abilities, to rise a bit higher than the social norm and take on successful businesses like the local brewery that sells to major cities or become commanders in the local militia. They stand out because they ARE better than the average Joe. These people are 22 point-buy and can usually make it to about 5th-level in one of the better NPC classes, but virtually never in a full-blown PC class.
5% of the population are even more special and can usually go that one step further than their 22 point-buy companions, simply by merit of their statistical advantage. These people fill your higher-up roles such as the important merchant who has several business interests in a city or perhaps even across several cities, or a local but minor lord, or perhaps a lieutenant in an army, or the captain of the guard. These people are 25 point-buy and have what it takes to gain a full PC class, however they rarely survive beyond 7th-level and so usually end up being limited to around that power level.
3% of the population are so special that they can be considered major heroes or villains in the setting. They have what it takes to get into major positions of power or influence and can amass vast resources. Kings, evil necromancers who threaten the kingdom, paladins whose deeds are talked about by bards throughout the realms, etc. These are the first people who can usually qualify for prestige classes and often do so as they begin to fill in the upper-echelons of power in the setting. These people are 28 point-buy.
1% of the population are so special that they are almost destined to become great in whatever they do. They are the ones who are chosen by the gods for their abilities. They are often called on to enact great deeds or of their own volition, seek and succeed to bring down kingdoms, rulers, or whole organizations. They are the people who make the legends that they become and are unlimited in their potential. These are the PC's and they are 32 point-buy.
The remaining 1% are the freaks who fall in-between. Occassionally, you'll get beings of such incredible power, or the opposite, of such incredible lameness, that they need a category of their own. A good example of one such being is Iuz the Evil in the Greyhawk setting. A cambion lord who rose to become a god. Even without his god-hood, he was exceptionally powerful.
So... with all that in mind, I'd look at it this way. The PC's are the heroes, so I'd give them 32 point buy, and tell them to make up 1st-level characters. Then, for every year below, say... 18, take off two points of point-buy. So at six years old, they'd be mere 6 point-buy characters! In addition, from 8 yo and down, lower the base starting point of abilities for point-buy generation so that at 8 yo, it's normal and starts at 8, but at 7 the starting point is 7, and so with the PC's at 6 yo, the starting point would be 6.
Then, of course, ask them to make 6 point, point-buy characters off a base of 6, without telling them why :D
That way, you can then use the mental abilities they assigned to their 'real' characters, and use the physical abilities they chose for the young version.
Just use the Size rules, and adjust accordingly. Drop them one size category(Large to Medium, Medium to small, etc)), then apply those mods.
Also realize that this plotline was totally on Justice League.
K, original ideas are hard to come by in a fantasy game that's been around for so long. I get a lot of "seen that" or "done that" responses to my ideas. But, that's ok. I havn't seen the Justice League episode you refer to, but I'm very excited about the module I'm working on, which I needed to figure out the child stat modifiers for. It's one of those ones that feels "inventive and unique" to me. I hope I can manage to work out on paper what I have in my head.
Thanks for the suggestions, everybody.
I actually pondered child characters for a while, but never got around to it. My idea involved particularly exceptional kids capable of taking class levels at the age of 5-8, but they would still be extremely disadvantaged. I had a -6 to strength, -2 to dexterity, -4 to constitution, and a -2 to all mental scores, and any hit dice were to be halved.
Using this system and standard 4d6 stat generation, an "exceptional" child melee fighter would likely have stats something like str 12, dex 14, con 12, int 9, wis 11, and cha 7 with perhaps 5 hit points. Spellcasting children would be a little more powerful by comparison, but considering that your average adult sorceror/wizard has maybe 6 hit points (max) at first level, those poor little kids get d2 hit dice and will be lucky to have more than the minimum 1 HP per level after the low constitution modifier that spellcasters typically have. On the other hand, if they're fighting other kids then that magic missile might be able to drop an opponent with one spell (making a spellcaster potentially useful in combat).
My idea was basically the children of adventurers taking on the children of villains on the school playground, and occurred to me while in that wonderful state of mind brought on by being awake for 30+ hours straight and having consumed large amounts of caffeine. If you've ever seen the children's cartoon "Rugrats," imagine it crossed with D&D and some kids with really bad attitudes (also, the card game "Lunch Money" was a source of inspiration). Weapons in this plan were also scaled for children so, at least at first, their best weapons would be things like thrown rocks, a baseball bat (1d4 damage, basically a small club), and a yo-yo (1d2, dex modifies attack roll, str still adds to damage, 10 foot range; a sort of cross between a whip and a thrown weapon). The best armor available would be padded (extra layers of clothes). Eventually the kids might get their grubby little hands on gear made for halflings or gnomes (and therefore sized for them), or get magical enhancements on their bats and yo-yos or get creative and add metal plating, spikes, and whatnot to increase damage (with a hammer and a few nails a bat would become 1d4 bludgeoning + 1d3 piercing, for example, and the little bookworm that can cast Bull's Strength and Magic Weapon becomes the tougher kid's best friend).
Little kids armed with baseball bats and spiked yo-yos duking it out on the playground as others toss in full strength magic missile and burning hands spells...yeah, I'm a little twisted but I still think that would be fun to try out at least once.
This is an interesting post.
I'd have to think about it for a while, but keep in mind that an average adult human has 10's across the board for stats.
If a human is considered an adult by age 18, it could be assumed that one stat point each year could be a good guide on the whole. (give or take one stat point of sway in either direction, depending on the child.) 1 str 1 int 1 con 1 dex 1 wis 1 ch for the 1st year of life, 2 for 2 years, 3 for 3.
Then, at age 4, fine motor skills come into play, so dex might be higher, con a bit higher, and str a bit higher, but not by much. At about age 5 language becomes a skill, which includes rational thought and higher modes of learning.
Since intelligence, wisdom, and charisma are all "mental" skills for the most part, and mental development goes in leaps as well, I'd adjust for them based on the background of the child. (A child who is taught 5 languages from the time they can speak would logically have a higher INT than one who does not, but other stats would probably suffer at the same time.)
Conversely, a child who is put to work at a young age will naturally grow stronger faster than one who is not, etc.
By the time they hit age 18, it could be assumed that they will have reached their maxiumum potential in every stat. (not including those stat bumps that come with levels gained.)
So, I'd probably roll out a character like normal, keeping those stats as the PC's maximum potential upon reaching adulthood, then retrogressively assign stats based on those rolls depending on the age of the child. (I like the size modifier idea, but it still doesn't account much for a baby with an INT of 18.)
Example: I roll 12 14 8 10 16 10. If you allow characters to assign stats, I would assign them based on whatever makes the most sense. (If the child is going to become a Wizard, an 8 int probably wouldn't get them into Wizard school, etc.)
So, for a wizard, I'd have: 8 str 12 con 14 wis 16 int 10 dex 10 charisma. (At about age 8 he would have reached his maximum strength, as the bulk of the rest of the 10 years would be learning from books, not from weight-lifting and physical training, though writing small characters does require dexterity, and speaking to instructors requires normal charisma abilities, etc.)
At any rate, that's an interesting concept. I also seem to remember something in the DMG about commoners and their stats in general. You might also find existing stats for children in any given adventure mod or other "official" source, but I don't recall seeing any off hand.
- WC
IIRC, the minimum age for a standard (ie adult) human character is either 15 or 16. They may still have a few years of growth ahead of them but they are physically mature. What, precisely, means "mature?" Quite bluntly, at least in the case of humans at least, the capacity to have and care for children. D&D is a fantasy game, but the closest analogue we have to its world is the midieval Europe and in that society it wasn't uncommon for people to be married and have children by the time they'd be legal to drive in the modern US (16). Granted, life expectancy was mid thirties (40 on the outside) for an average commoner and males often married girls several years younger than them because supporting a family usually meant that the husband farms or works a trade while the wife was often little more than a baby maker. To work to support a family, a young man would have to be physically fit and full grown (18-20), but if a girl was able to bear children and didn't look like a complete child then she was qualified as a wife and her parents would often seek to marry her off because she was doing little more than taking up space and food in their home at that age.
When a child becomes a teenager (or someplace around that age) they hit a series of growth spurts that increase their size and begin to fill them out (up to that point they've usually grown more vertically than anything else and haven't had a chance to growe into their own frames-unless they're fat but that's another issue). Strength and constitution would make leaps and bounds in this period, and dexterity (balance, physical coordination, etc) would also increase, at least a little.
As for mental ability scores...
Intelligence doesn't necessarily mean what you know; it means what you're capable of understanding. A fighter with 18 intelligence can't cast spells just because he's smart enough; you need the appropriate practice or training. Children usually develope this capacity for knowledge before they gain very much; by ten or twelve they're likely capable of understanding anything that they'll ever be able to. Other factors like maturity, attention span, and so forth limit how fast a child learns but doesn't change their fundamental intelligence.
Wisdom is awareness of the world around you, and children are often less focused and more distractable than adults. They're still experiencing a lot of new things as they grow and haven't fully mastered the art of taking everything in effeciently.
Charisma, contrary to what many people seem to think, does not necessarily have anything to do with how physically attractive a character is. Charisma represents how well one is capable of interacting with, empathizing with, and even influencing others. Granted, a comely appearance helps these things and influences charisma, but a supermodel who happens to act like a complete b@**+ all the time *will* have a low charisma score, unless she acts like that on purpose and is extremely good at it (doing so even when such behavior is completely inaapropriate would suggest a particularly low wisdom and/or intelligence score). An butt-ugly person who is extremely well spoken and good at reading would have a rather high charisma, perhaps 16 (they just need to get over the obstacle of some people who are set off by their looks at first). Children often haven't completely developed the knowledge of what is appropriate or preferred by others in certain situations and will have somewhat lower charisma scores. Some kids, however, do have very good intuition on reading others even if they don't yet know the best way to react (due to lower wisdom, as already mentioned) but have the capacity for it.