My friend and I go round and round on this subject all the time. He says that a paladin without a mount should get something a little extra to compensate.
I say a paladin without a mount is nothing more than a fighter -- albeit one with convictions -- with a long walk to look forward to. Being a mounted warrior is what makes a paladin special, in my humble opinion.
I'd have to disagree. A Paladin is simply a warrior with convictions, strong convictions, and he doesn't need a mount to excercise his convictions (although he'll get plenty of excercise without the mount). A warrior on a mount is a cavalier.
Now I think any Paladin who doesn't take advantage of the benefits of a mount is simply losing out on one of the advantages of his class.
Now I think any Paladin who doesn't take advantage of the benefits of a mount is simply losing out on one of the advantages of his class.
Generally, I agree. However, sometimes this is the DM's fault rather than the players. If the player makes a paladin, and then the DM does nothing but dungeon crawls, this ability is going to be damn near useless to the paladin.
Now, an answer to that problem is to make a small-sized paladin; then your mount is medium and can go into those dungeons. :D
That's true, if the DM doesn't give the player the opportunity to use his class benefits, then it's obviously not the players fault. In those cases, I would advise the player to let his DM know that he's missing out on an aspect of his class that he would like to take advantage.
I like the idea of a small paladin with a dungeon sized mount.
a "long" time ago this came up with an old group, we figured if the paladin didn't want a mount they could either take weapon focus(dietys favored weapon or longsword)or a divine feat
Now I think any Paladin who doesn't take advantage of the benefits of a mount is simply losing out on one of the advantages of his class.
I agree with Calidore's assesment. A Paladin is a Paladin with or without a mount; however, by not taking one, you're taking a bit of advantage away from that class.
Substitution levels are an idea for a fix...Substitution levels have started appearing in some WotC v3.5 books, particularly in the "Races of" books. It seems to me I saw Paladin substitution levels somewhere, but I can't recall where.
This is ideal for class abilities and such that don't quite fit into your character concept. Its a complete level, but with different abilitites and/or stat increases. So for example, at 5th level, instead of your Paladin taking a mount, maybe he gets Greater Turning or some such instead.
-Rob
No paladin worth his stirrups ever sang along to the Nancy Sinatra tune "These boots were made for walking ..."
Only infantry fighters like Nancy Sinatra. :-)
This is a great thread. You "pro-walking" paladin fans are making some interesting points, though.
I think the ability is pretty essential to the Paladin class, because it represents, IMO, a physical manefestation of the Paladins' goodness. It is a sign that the good-laigned powers are favoring him with a trusted steed that will follow him to rightous battle. I think that Paladin class is diminished by not having that external relationship.
That being said, I don't see any reason why the creature must be a warhorse, or a riding mount at all. Maybe a good optional rule would involve a list of Celestial Copmanions that the Paladin can choose from at 5th level. Their skills and abilities are simply analogous to the Warhorse's. . . such as hawks, lions, whooping cranes, and whatnot.
I wouldn't like players to get extra abilites as a replacement. It unbalances the class, I think.
I wouldn't like players to get extra abilites as a replacement. It unbalances the class, I think.
While choosing abilities at random could certainly do this, Substitution levels are specifically designed NOT to unbalance the class, so they are worth the look.
As for the great white steed concept being integral to the Paladin's character, as some have stated, my first instinct would be "you're right. I have a hard time envisioning a Paladin walking from church to church or on his feet amidst a throng of undead"
Let's not forget the cardinal rule of D&D though, the rules are just a suggestion, not an absolute. Do what you want.
-Rob
Now I think any Paladin who doesn't take advantage of the benefits of a mount is simply losing out on one of the advantages of his class.
I agree with Calidore's assesment. A Paladin is a Paladin with or without a mount; however, by not taking one, you're taking a bit of advantage away from that class.
This is ideal for class abilities and such that don't quite fit into your character concept. Its a complete level, but with different abilitites and/or stat increases. So for example, at 5th level, instead of your Paladin taking a mount, maybe he gets Greater Turning or some such instead.
-Rob
I'm with you guys, in that a Paladin may not pursue a mount in the same way that a wizard may never take a familiar...but I'll stop short of offering substitution levels; I'd offer the player a chance to trade out a mounted feat for something different (Extra Turning, etc.), but that's about as far as I'd go.
I'm all about KIS,S.
M
The problem with the Paladin's mount right now, as I see it, is that the Paladin's mount is broken.
1) Everyone trusts the Paladin, right?
2) So why not stuff all the treasure into the saddlebags on the Paladin's mount? When he unsummons it, all the treasure goes into Pocket Dimension Alpha, and encumbrance vanishes.
3) When you need the treasure to divide it up, summon the mount from Pocket Dimension Alpha. Everything that it leaves with, it comes back with.
I HATE this. It drives me nuts. Every time the PC's come upon a large treasure hoard, and most of my parties are good aligned, it's "I summon my mount! Load him up, boys!"
The problem with the Paladin's mount right now, as I see it, is that the Paladin's mount is broken.
1) Everyone trusts the Paladin, right?
2) So why not stuff all the treasure into the saddlebags on the Paladin's mount? When he unsummons it, all the treasure goes into Pocket Dimension Alpha, and encumbrance vanishes.
3) When you need the treasure to divide it up, summon the mount from Pocket Dimension Alpha. Everything that it leaves with, it comes back with.
I HATE this. It drives me nuts. Every time the PC's come upon a large treasure hoard, and most of my parties are good aligned, it's "I summon my mount! Load him up, boys!"
Easy resolution:
Paladins shun material wealth; your party's paladin should be outright refusing to carry such trivial baubles on his loyal mount.
DM angle: If your Paladin succumbs to greed, or allows his holy steed to be burdened by the parties vain spoils, you can either have the summoned mount return WITHOUT the loot (an act of the Gods sure to teach them a strong lesson), have the mount not return AT ALL (until some kind of atonement is made for abusing a loyal friend and servant), or even have the character lose his Paladinship... depending on how cruel a Diety you are...
M
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We came up with our own (sort of) variant that was inspired by the crusaders (paladins) of Pelor in DRAGON 306, which we fleshed out last week drawing heavily (read as plagarise) upon the Eternal Order abilities of Kelemvor's paladins from Champion's of Valour.
Note: initially the player just didn't want a mount as we are playing SCAP from Dungeon (urban campaign primarily) and Pelorian paladins are hardly chivalrous noble blooded knights thundering around on horseback spending their few precious feats on Mounted Combat (and it's tree associates), they are humble and decent defenders of the common man who value good over law who want to spend feats on Extra Turning :) Basically he didn't want a horse. Oddly the only variant in CoV not to have a Special Mount was paladins of Nobanion, which given they are usually wemics kind of figures (they are called Lion Legionaires and get to grow eagle's wings instead, like some lion based pegatuar). Very odd, I expected at least one example of a variant without a Special Mount, why are WotC obsessed with paladins being mounted holy warriors? Too much Kingdom of Heaven? Anyway here it is:
ORDER OF THE SUN LORD (Paladin)
The primary duty of the Order of the Sun Lord – a Pelorian order of crusaders (the alternate name for paladins of Pelor) - is to hunt and destroy powerful undead. They develop powerful undead-fighting powers by sacrificing other paladin abilities, whilst still remaining more than capable of dealing with any evil they may encounter.
Hit Die: d10.
REQUIREMENTS
To take an Order of the Sun Lord substitution level, a character must have Pelor as his patron deity and be about to take his 3rd, 5th, or 6th level of paladin.
CLASS SKILLS
Order of the Sun Lord substitution levels have the class skills of the standard paladin class.
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.
TABLE 1-1: ORDER OF THE SUN LORD SUBSTITUTION LEVELS
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Aura of courage, eternal vigour, undead knowledge
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Smite evil 2/day, scalding faith of the sun, undead knowledge
6th +6/1 +5 +2 +2 Greater turning, undead knowledge
CLASS FEATURES
All of the following are features of the Order of the Sun Lord substitution levels.
Undead Knowledge (Ex): Each time an Order of the Sun Lord substitution level is taken, the character gains a cumulative +2 competence bonus on Knowledge (religion) checks concerning undead.
Eternal Vigour (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, an Order of the Sun Lord paladin can ignore the effects of negative levels bestowed upon her by an undead creature.
This benefit replaces the standard paladin's divine health class feature.
Scalding Faith of the Sun (Su): At 5th level, an Order of the Sun Lord paladin can turn undead as a cleric of his class level, as opposed to a cleric three levels lower than his class level.
This benefit replaces the standard paladin's special mount class feature.
Greater Turning (Su): At 6th level, an Order of the Sun Lord paladin gains the ability to perform a greater turning once per day in place of a regular turning, just as if he had access to the Sun domain. If the character already has this ability (such as from the Sun domain), he can use it one additional time per day.
This benefit replaces the standard paladin's remove disease class feature normally gained at 6th level. At any level where a standard paladin gains an extra daily use of remove disease, an Order of the Sun Lord paladin instead gains another daily use of his greater turning ability.
PS the player has only taken the 5th level substitution, and is considering the 6th (given he has never used remove disease as yet). We are happy with it and feel it's balanced, comment by all means but we are sticking with it as it works for us :) I might do some of the other paladins from DRAGON 306, particualrly those that don't seem to fit as having steeds, Rao springs to mind. It's nice they all have a specific feat, makes an ideal substitution class ability. Purely as an intellectual exercise, the results will be of no use to us until I start AoW (and even then probably not).
Finally this required very little effort on my part. Credit really has to go to Gary Holian (for the article Paladins of Greyhawk Holy Warriors of the Flanaess in DRAGON 306 which inspired this little exercise) and Thomas M Reid and Sean K Reynolds for Champions of Valour (although it is the only use I have found for that book and I could have gotten Eternal Order free off the net excerpt at the WotC website, I was really hoping for a "fixed" version of Exalted Smite given it's pointlessness as is in BoED compared to Improved Smiting, I have some ideas on that, I might post them elsewhere when I have fleshed them out :)).
PPS This could probably work for Lathander as well, whose paladins are also notable by their abscence from CoV (which I found really, really odd).
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It does occur to me that people may feel Scalding Faith of the Sun is too powerful and counts as three Improved Turning feats (in 3.5 whereas it would count as two in 3.0). In a way this is true but I see Improved Turning as a way for clerics to turn above their level, particulalrly if they multi-class (particularly classes that add to didvine spellcasting level but not other cleric abilities). An alertnative could be as a celrc of paladin level minus one, so to get to turn as a cleric of paladin level the paladin would probably spend his 6th level bonus feat on Improved Turning. Just an idea.