
bg2soatob |

The weirdest thing has happened in the revision. Dragon has taken a more player-oriented style, while dungeon has added dungeoncraft. However, it did not add other articles for DMs, and the advice articles I enjoyed so much seem to have vanished. Take dragon #322, for example. Articles like "who's afraid of the dark", and "collaborative campaign building" were excellent, and they will no longer exist. Nor does the Campaign Components series, which I believe I speak for most dragon readers when I say was the best series in the magazine. Dragon is just for players, and dungeon has only 'critical threats', which are two-page articles about specific topics. I don't mind the revision, making each magazine point to a specific audience, but go through with it fully. Find space (by either shortening the adventures or reducing their number) and put in some quality DM articles!

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Hi everyone,
I have to agree. :(
Being the "nerd" who is spending most of the money for my role playing group, I am the one who buys both Dragon and Dungeon magazine.
I did not mind so far, for I benefitted from both magazines (being the group's DM). I read that the new Dragon was to be primarily aimed at players. I was not enthusiastic about that, but expected that all the articles usable by DMs would make the transition to Dungeon.
I was proven wrong, for some really neat new articles showed up in Dungeon (I really like these "small DM problem solvers", but I am wondering how I am to keep a grip on them?!). On the other hand I sincerely miss all those fine DM articles from Dragon.
I really like the new DM articles in Dungeon, I realize that there is only so much space for DM related articesl in Dungeon, but I still miss those articles which made Dragon unique and not a printed version of wizards.com or other D&D-websites. I especially loved the long articles which did not stay on the "surface" of problems but had a "deeper approach" (sorry, obviously I am not a native speaker).
Then there is one more thing: where is the campaign related material in both Dungeon/ Dragon?
Living Greyhawk vanished with Polyhedron, but I am looking forward to find more Greyhawk-Adventures in Dungeon which can provide some extra background (maybe including new prestige classes in the adventure?). On the other hand neither Dragon nor Dungeon sport articles like Elminster's look at Faerûn...
I am sure that you will find a way to bring back some more in depth dm articles. In the meantime I am hoping that you don't forget your more D&D-experienced readers (there is an obvious increase of "newbie"-articles which is not wrong, but which experienced DM is interested in reading which gaming place to choose for setting up a new D&D campaign?)
Dungeon and Dragon so far always were one step ahead of other magazines and/ or D&D-related websites. I hope that they will prove soon again to not just being up to but actually being superior to them!
Greetings from Cologne, Germany,
Guenther

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You are right stating all the (mostly good) new content. But still I am missing some dear old article serieses from Dragon. Where will they be published?
Dungeon does sport some really nice new articles... most reviewers in here agree on that.
Dragon reduced its DM articles - most readers definitely miss something there.
I don't care whether those campaign specific articles will reappear in Dragon (where they rather belong to, after all this is information usable by both players and dms) or in Dungeon (where all the good new content does not leave much room for changes)... I'd just like to see them reappear. ;-)
Guenther

greasy |

I originally purchased Dragon as a DM, it had more articles I like, then Dungeon did. I didn't care so much for the Adventures in dungeon as I prefer to make my own. But Dragon had all of the Articles I loved: Dungeon Craft, DMs Toolbox, Sage Advice, Elminsters Guide, Ecology, Plus articles about new races or idea articles like city of shadows(322), shady chars (322)urban druids (317), Animal Ancestry (313) Ghost Elves (313) Dragon Psychoses (313) dragon magic (308), And the Article about the Cult of the devouring god forgot the issue number. But after the make over most the article I like the most dungeon craft moved over to dungeon and the few that stayed will become rare (in my opinion for the few put out since the change). Dragon added a lot of new stuff most of witch is not relevant to me (D&D miniatures, silicon sorcery, Novel story) and a few others. So I have started buying dungeon instead of Dragon for the dungeon craft articles, but I would subscribe in a heart beat to dungeon if it started adding more articles to the Magazine. I would pay a bit for the page increase to include a few more 4-6 page articles. To me I wouldn't mind losing one adventure for the space but I figure most of the readers get dungeon for the adventures and not for the articles so I believe that would not be feasible.
Jon

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I wholeheartedly agree to you, Jon.
Unfortunately Dungeon does not contain enough space to include both the three adventures per issue AND all the dm-related material which vanished from Dragon.
I would also like to see some more 4 - 6 page dm articles in Dungeon, but where ot put them? Besides I like both the adventures AND the dm articles...
Maybe a compromise could be to revive some of those articles in Dragon which appealed to both players and dms: e.g. Elminster's Guide, Ecology (which does appear even more often in the new Dragon, one of the plusses of the new Dragon!), etc.
Most of the articles you mentioned would have some appeal to players, too, wouldn't they?
Let's see what Erik Mona will be able to tell at the end of this week (see above for his comment).
Günther

Benjamin |
Agreed!
My impression is that both DUNGEON & DRAGON now provide smaller pieces that are easier to swallow, maybe with a younger audience in mind.
There's no harm in that, mind you - I for one like the one-page-each "Class Acts" a lot. But in other cases, I think they took it too far - "Coup de grâce" would be an example.
And although moving all the DM stuff to DUNGEON means I'll have to subscribe to a second magazine - that's acceptable, too. DUNGEON offers something more than merely ready-made adventures (which I prefer to come up with myself) - a whole DM-toolbox.
What was lost in the process - it seems - where some of the lengthy, more in-depth bits that were interesting mostly - but not only - to DMs. To me, those were the highlights that won me as a subscriber in the first place: some of the "Campaign Components" (I especially liked the tournaments) or the irregular city portraits (I just *loved* those).
To cut a long story short: I wouldn't mind seeing some of the more in-depth, detailed, "flavour" articles every other issue :)
Benjamin

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Ok. A week's passed, the cat's out of the bag, and here I am.
I'm your new editor-in-chief.
And I agree with you. One of the things that concerns me most about the recent (successful) relaunch of both titles is that we've given the impression that, since Dungeon is being positioned as a "DM's Magazine," that means Dragon is the "Player's Magazine."
This is in fact not the case. The key behind the relaunch of Dragon was to position it as the "D&D Magazine," which is to say that it appeals to all fans of Dungeons & Dragons, whether players or DMs. Since people who like D&D generally like to be kept abreast of interesting fantasy novels or electronic games, we've made sure to include that type of content in the magazine (but it's been there for ages, so that's nothing new).
I too love the "Campaign Components" articles. My favorite Dragon article of all time was probably Ed Greenwood's "Nine Hells" overview from 100 years ago, and that sucker spanned three issues. Don't get me wrong. I like short articles, and shorties like Class Acts are important for the magazine on a number of levels. But I also like features, and I tend to like 'em long. Not all of them, mind you, but enough. Every so often, I think Dragon should present something really significant along the lines of the Greenwood Hells articles, a Creature Catalog, or the more recent Campaign Components articles.
Dragon is a new magazine with a fresh look and slightly modified focus. But it is still Dragon magazine, the flagship of our hobby and the most storied and oldest in-print professional gaming magazine in the world.
I guess what I'm trying to say is stick with us. DMs will find plenty to love in both magazines.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
PS: You probably won't find many DM advice articles in Dragon, however, and certainly no adventures. That's what Dungeon's for, after all.

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Congratulations, Erik!
I hope that you won't be worn out by this double responsibility! (again: I am not a native speaker, I beg your pardon for my english!)
Your comment on your point of view on the roles of both magazines was good news as well!
I am looking forward to the new changes, Dragon is facing, bringing back some of the dear old favourites while adding some new "spice". :-)
Günther
P.S.
As written above, I am a long time reader of Dragon and an almost as long (but irregular) reader of Dungeon. I purchased every issue I could get my hands on, but I never seriously considered a subscription of either magazine.
Finding this close contact between paizo staff and your loyal readership in this forum really impressed me. I read many magazines (mostly non D&D ones), but I don't know another one which cultivates such a close contact to its readers: you achieved another subscriber of both magazines. :-)

bg2soatob |

~~impression that, since Dungeon is being positioned as a "DM's Magazine," that means Dragon is the "Player's Magazine. This is in fact not the case.~~
The writer's submission guidelines seem to disagree with that. Quote: "Articles for dragon should be useful for players. We're not interested in content useful only to DMs or written specifically for DMs. If you'd like to write an article for DMs, see the dungeon writer's guidelines."
Being a DM who likes to create his own adventures, my suggestion would be to cut back on them (have only two, or make them shorter), and put in some good DM articles. Things like "who's afraid of the dark" (dragon 322) are precisely the kind of thing I look for in a d&d magazine, providing creative ideas for my adventures.

Alec Austin |

Being a DM who likes to create his own adventures, my suggestion would be to cut back on them (have only two, or make them shorter), and put in some good DM articles. Things like "who's afraid of the dark" (dragon 322) are precisely the kind of thing I look for in a d&d magazine, providing creative ideas for my adventures.
I suspect that the reason that many people liked the revision of Dungeon so much was that it upped the number of adventures from 2 to 3, so I doubt this is likely to happen anytime soon.
That said, your point regarding the player/DM split in the guidelines is well made; I recently sent a DM article query to Dungeon (and had it rejected for precisely the reasons Erik outlines above) because Dragon's guidelines so explicitly spell out that articles must be of use to players.

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I'm not sure I've got a great grasp on the question. It appears as though another look at the Dragon submission guidelines is in order (I didn't write them in the first place).
In general, articles in Dragon should have something in them for players, since almost everyone who reads the magazine is a player (even if they also DM).
Why don't you tell me specifically what sort of article you'd like to write, and I'll see if I can be more clear.
--Erik

Asberdies Lives |

cut back on them (have only two, or make them shorter), and put in some good DM articles.
Good lord! Whatever else Dungeon contains between its covers, it's an adventure magazine at its core. Cut or shorten adventurs for articles, and I can't even imagine the 9 levels of Hell Erik would catch from subscribers.
I've seen a few people mention that they prefer to write their own adventures and would rather see DM tips in Dungeon. Me, I'll continue to develop my own DM style and use Dungeon for adventures, which I have no time to write.

bg2soatob |

~Why don't you tell me specifically what sort of article you'd like~
For example, something along the lines of DM's toolbox, or the darkness or collaborative campaigns articles from #322. They are only useful for DMs, and therefore the guidelines say they would be rejected. That was one of my favorite issues.