This is primarily a rules question, but I'm posting here since I feel it's way too corner-case for the rules forum and I'm mostly looking for potential additional info and related ideas anyway. (And since it's about an archetype from a Companion release it's also highly unlikely to ever get an official answer.)
Since Ranged Spell Combat doesn't require a free hand, I've been thinking about combining it with two guns. However, especially one FAQ on the standard SC has made doubt whether this is actually possible strictly according to RAW:
You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand.
In the case of RSC, I guess "the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand" would be "the ranged weapon in your hands". Which prevents RSC with multiple guns due to the singular definitive "the ... weapon", even if my PC happened to have a million hands wielding a million guns and also be able to attack with all of them in a regular full attack.
But on the other hand (see what I did there?), I also believe it's perfectly reasonable to claim this FAQ entry isn't relevant in this case because:
1. The FAQ is about regular SC, not RSC (and the Paizo dev team have repeatedly stated FAQ entries are always specific).
2. The question being answered says "such as armor spikes and bites", which are not "weapons associated with a hand" and therefore not usable with SC anyway (see FAQ 1 in spoiler below).
3. The devs seem to assume a PC cannot ever attack with more than two "weapons associated with a hand" during one full attack, and regular SC does require two hands (of which only one may wield a weapon).
Regarding MWF, an eldritch archer may for example simply cast alter self and turn into a four-armed kashata (or they may be allowed to play one).
Can you use TWF/MWF with Ranged Spell Combat?
I would very much appreciate any input you may have to help me solve this conundrum!
For reference, here's the RSC RAW plus three additional FAQ entries concerning regular SC (which AFAICT are the only ones which may be relevant):
Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.
Edit 9/9/13: This is a revised ruling about how haste interacts with effects that are essentially a full attack, even though the creature isn't specifically using the full attack action (as required by haste). The earlier ruling did not allow the extra attack from haste when using spell combat.
You can make as many weapon attacks as you would normally be able to make if you were making a full attack with that weapon. For example, if you are an 8th-level magus (BAB +6/+1), you could make two weapon attacks when using spell combat.
Edit 9/9/13: This is a revised ruling about how haste interacts with effects that are essentially a full attack, even though the creature isn't specifically using the full attack action (as required by haste). The earlier ruling implied that spell combat did not allow the extra attack from haste (because spell combat was not using the full attack action).
And for the record: no, I don't think it would be OP to allow TWF with RSC, since it requires such a stupidly gigantic investment in feats and items. Which means it cannot be done before high levels (probably 15+) and requires significant sacrifices are made in other areas, so it's most likely quite far from the most opted magus possible.
The Evangelist PrC's Aligned Class feature explicitly says you gain the class features of both the Evangelist and the Aligned Class.
Aligned Class wrote:
At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.
RAW, AFAICT this means for example a Monk 5 / Evangelist 10 has 16 Stunning Fist attempts/day, since Stunning Fist says:
Stunning Fist wrote:
A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
Likewise, if said monk has the Monastic Legacy feat, it appears his base unarmed strike damage would be equal to that of a 19th level monk (5 levels monk + 9 levels Aligned Class (monk) + [0.5 x 10 levels Evangelist]), since Monastic Legacy says:
Monastic Legacy wrote:
Add half the levels you have in classes other than monk to your monk level to determine your effective monk level for your base unarmed strike damage.
I think it's pretty obvious this wasn't intended, and hopefully most DM's would recognize this and rule "Aligned Class levels" don't count as "classes other than monk levels" for the purpose of anything which already grants a better progression via Aligned Class (monk).
But the RAI isn't the purpose of this thread, only what the RAW actually says. So my questions are:
1. Does anyone know of anything RAW which clearly or potentially means my above conclusions are incorrect?
2. Does anyone know of any other class features which progress (or may progress) with both class levels and any levels in "classes other than [class name]" and would thus have the same problem when combined with the Evangelist?
I would be very grateful for any input. If you think my conclusions are wrong, please link to the rules item(s) and cite the relevant rules text(s) which support your view.
Are martial characters barred from focusing on something other than damage if they want to remain at least somewhat useful in combat beyond 10th level? Can for example a 20th level fighter or barbarian gain control/buff/debuff/tanking/defender abilities powerful enough to make their ability to lower enemy hp largely irrelevant? Or at least powerful enough allow them to be as effective as their DPR-optimized counterparts, despite a much lower damage output capacity?
If you know of any such Paizo and/or DSP options/combos/builds or have one of your own, please post a link or summary here and describe what it does!
In my experience, the answer is "yes" to the first question and "no" to the other two, particularly in games limited to Paizo sources, and even more so in games limited to only the "core" CRB options. In games including Path of War (or adapted ToB) options, I think such non-DPR focused martials generally do a lot better, but it seems to me that is also mostly because of the high actual baseline DPR being built into the martial maneuver system, not mostly because the non-damage related options are powerful enough to make the build's damage output capacity largely irrelevant.
I think I might have proven myself wrong with my most recent build experiment, although as far as I know, I've just stumbled upon a few odd combos allowing for an extremely rare exception. As its effectiveness is also dependent on tons of very specific options from wildly different sources, it also an annoyingly complex build which has very little room for variations.
But I'm certain there are loads of nifty combos and much more efficient builds than mine that proves martials really can be effective in higher level combat without having to deal much damage at all. Please enlighten me!
As a rough definition of "effective", think of what a reasonably optimized DPR-focused martial of equal level is capable of, for example how powerful and/or how many enemies it's typically able to remove from combat on an average round. If you know of an option or a combo of options that could help a non-damage focused martial match that level of usefulness in higher levels, or maybe a complete build that can, it fits here!
Due to a discussion over at GitPG about Paizo options for a (non-synthesist) natural attack DPR build, I got curious enough about the potential in the combined suggestions to put together a build.
Though I think the result actually came out free from any major flaws stopping it from being able to do its thing in a real game, it's still a rather silly one-trick pony that prioritizes DPR far beyond what is reasonable instead of improving other areas. But it also turned out to be pretty damn good at its DPR trick, better than what I would've thought possible after Pummeling Style got a well-deserved beating by the nerf-bat, and it can for example easily one-shot the tarrasque at 20th (probably earlier).
Which got me wondering - what are the alternative combinations to achieve the same type of overkill silliness? And what do those alternative martial class builds with equal or better DPR numbers look like?
In short, I'm primarily looking for builds that, say:
uses only Paizo options
does not include Leadership
have at least 16 of 20 levels in martial classes (= classes with max 4th level casting)
in one turn can deal an average of at least 600 points of damage to an AC 40, DR 15/- enemy starting more than 80 ft away
can do the above reliably and repeatedly during several turns per day
I haven't been able to find any such builds here (which either means my search-fu simply isn't up to the task, or hopefully that people here use their brains for more productive things than over-optimizing DPR). So I'm asking you for help:
Do you know of or remember any builds (posted here on the Paizo boards, someplace else, or that are still only in your head) that you think might fit the above criteria?
If so, I would be very grateful if you could post a link or a build outline!
Weapon wielders are of special interest, but any build that fits is welcome.
Comments on the subject are of course also welcome!
The wrathblood archetype was made with the following mechanical objectives:
Full BAB melee focus
Tier 3 versatility/power (comparable to for example inquisitor or magus)
Easy to play (especially in combat)
Versatile and effective utility/non-combat abilities
Enables several effective mechanically different character builds
Retain relative effectiveness/usefulness in higher level games
In terms of fluff/flavor, the wrathblood is intended to fill a "monster-PC" niche and to provide a PC option focusing on natural attacks, without suffering from the problem of "early-level OP - late-level UP" associated with other natural attack class/archetype options.
In short, the wrathblood archetype replaces 17 of the 35 bloodrage features, most notably:
Uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge and spell casting are replaced by the ability to gain eidolon evolutions while bloodraging, starting with 2 evolution points at 2nd level and increasing to a maximum of 8 points at 20th level.
Blood casting and eschew materials are replaced by the ability to trade rounds of bloodrage to gain the effects of the beast shape spell for 1 hour/day at 4th level, similar to the druid's wild shape ability but not useable in combat and limited to a maximum of 5 uses/day of beast shape IV at 20th level.
Bloodline bonus feats are replaced by bonus style feats and the ability to use two styles simultaneously at 10th level (prerequisites and fuse ability near identical to the master of many styles monk archetype).
Bloodline bonus spells are replaced by the ability to trade rounds of bloodrage to gain the effects of each evolution surge spell 1/day during a bloodrage (starting with the lesser spell at 7th level and ending with the greater spell at 16th level) or the displacement or stoneskin spell for one round while bloodraging (at 13th level).
I would especially appreciate your help, input and views with regards to five questions:
Q1:
Is the wrathblood on about the right power level for tier 3? (Note that the archetype is intended to be more capable than the bloodrager and other full BAB classes designed by Paizo.)
Q2:
Does the wrathblood meet the other mechanical objectives?
Q3:
Does the wrathblood live up to its intended flavor and is that flavor sufficiently unique, interesting and fun in your view?
Q4:
Do the wrathblood abilities have the potential to cause any new obviously OP/broken combinations (by themselves or combined with a certain bloodline/feat/race or other PC option)?
Q5:
A (DM) - Do you think any of your players would be interested in playing a wrathblood character and would you like to make the archetype available to them?
B (Player) - Would you be interested in playing a wrathblood character if the archetype was available?
Naturally, I would also be grateful for any improvement ideas/suggestions/tips and critique/praise/comments you may have!
I've made several portable steam powered items intended for any setting with a technological level comparable to that of Golarion (emerging guns, clockwork constructs exist).
In short, the rules system for these items are based on a Pool of "pressure points" (PrP), generated by a portable steam boiler, a certain Pool value (or threshold) required for the continuous benefits provided by steam engines (powered armor, weapons etc), and a certain number of the Pool's PrP spent when activating special functions of the engines. The system and the items were designed with an aim to be player-friendly in combat, provide non-caster characters with additional versatility, and to include a large number of meaningful and varied options and combinations.
Currently, the maximum Pool value and the number of PrP the Pool regains per round is set and only dependent on the type of boiler used and its accessories. Though this has been briefly tested in play and seem to work fine, I would prefer a system which also allowed the user to take actions in order to temporarily affect the max Pool and regain values. I experimented a bit with various actions (swift, move, standard etc.) to disable engines for additional PrP regain and "pressure Pool overloading", but found it to be too complicated for practical use, at least with the current design of the steam engines. I've been trying to come up with other mechanics for partially action-dependent PrP regain and max Pool, which:
1. Rewards clever combat tactics
2. Demands a minimum of book-keeping in combat
3. Is at least somewhat believable as non-magic
So far, I haven't been successful and would greatly appreciate any suggestions, advice, tips or other relevant input you may have.
Here's an excerpt from the document I'm working on, describing the current system and a a few of the more complex items. Apologies for the wall of text... (You're of course welcome to also comment the content from other perspectives if something seems totally out of place, but this thread is primarily intended to focus on the above.)
I'm currently looking for suitable player options for a campaign of a sub-genre I haven't yet been able to describe more elegantly than "high-fantasy/low-tech-steampunk/viking"-ish. My aim is to offer as many options as possible, with as little home brew work for me as possible, that also help "push" PC builds into becoming roughly equally contributing T3 party members (mechanically speaking). With the martial disciple classes from Path of War (by Dreamscarred Press) and a couple of slightly tweaked classes from the ACG play test, all types of PC abilities are well covered by the T3 classes in PF, but I think there's a lack of options that are mechanically as strong but less complex to play, in the way most T4-5 classes like fighters and rogues are. IME, players that look for fighter-type builds don't mind complex build structures, as long as the resulting in-game mechanics are relatively simple and consistent (the opposite of spells, in many ways). One way of handling this would be to simply offer gestalt builds of say two T4/5 classes, but I believe this mostly makes these martial builds even stronger in the earliest levels (when they don't need to be stronger), while it still won't be able to save them from becoming largely irrelevant in higher levels. So, I've instead tried to put together a "gestalt class" that basically strives to offer a power development curve similar to that of T3 classes while having considerably less complex in-game mechanics, and also adding a few crucial abilities that these classes most sorely lack (such as improved action economy and more viable combat maneuvers vs. high CR opponents) to hopefully make it into T3.
The name "herjagner" and the more "mystical" abilities mentioned in the class description here are purely flavor, suitable with my campaign, inspired by the real-world Old Norse mythology. I think most features can easily be reflavored as (ex) for a strictly non-magic class.
My two main questions are:
1 Is this a good idea for a less in-game complex T3 class (and do you have a better one) or plain stupid? Why?
2 Is it T3 or OP or UP? Why and during which levels?
Besides these, all input is of course greatly appreciated!
(For easier reference I've numbered each class feature and included two example builds. And BTW: Herjagner is derived from Old Norse herjarragner, consisting of herjar ("warriors" or "devastators"), and ragna ("conjure", in a divine sense), and would roughly mean "bringer of warriors".)
Herjagner:
1 Alignment: Any non-evil.
2 Hit Die: d10.
3 Starting Wealth: 5d6 × 10 gp (average 175 gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.
Lvl/BAB - Special
- 01 ------ Einherjar Manifestation, 1st Einherji
- 02 ------ Heroic Charge
- 03 ------ Einherji Bonus Feat
- 04 ------ Martial Stance
- 05 ------ 2nd Einherji, As One
- 06 ------ Battleshift (move action)
- 07 ------ Combined Resistance
- 08 ------ Warrior Senses, As One
- 09 ------ Einherji Bonus Feat
- 10 ------ Dual Manifestation
- 11 ------ Adapted Resistance
- 12 ------ 3rd Einherji, As One
- 13 ------ Superior Maneuvers
- 14 ------ Martial Stance
- 15 ------ Einherji Bonus Feat
- 16 ------ Full Manifestation
- 17 ------ -
- 18 ------ Einherjar Maneuvers
- 19 ------ -
- 20 ------ Army of One
CLASS FEATURES
6 Weapon and Armor Proficiency
The herjagner is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).
7 Einherjar Manifestation (Ex, Su)
Through both rigorous training in the arts of war and focused studies of famous heroes throughout history, the herjagner have strengthened her natural connection to the legendary einherjar, her body and mind forming a vessel for the abilities of once great warrior heroes who died in battle. At 1st level, she manifests aspects of one such hero, adding the features and abilities of the einherji to her own (see further details below). At later levels, when she has gained a second einherji, she can meditate for a minute, keeping her eyes closed while sitting down undisturbed, to change manifestations and gain the benefits of her second einherji instead. The herjagner always manifests at least one einherji.
Note: Only the ability to change manifestations is supernatural. Nothing besides the herjagner's death may prevent her from manifesting.
8 Einherji
At 1st, 5th and 12th level the herjagner can choose one einherji, adding all its abilities and bonuses to her own whenever she chooses to manifest it (as per the Einherjar Manifestation feature). The first einherji can be of the fighter, gunslinger, monk or rogue class, while the second and third can be of the cavalier or ranger class or any of the previously listed classes. (See further details in the "Einherjar" section below.)
9 Heroic Charge
At second level, the herjagner may ignore difficult terrain when taking the charge action on her first turn after having rolled for initiative, provided she is able to jump at least 10 feet. At 6th level, all her charge actions may ignore difficult terrain as long as she is able to jump at least 10 feet. At 12th level, the herjagner also gains the pounce ability and can make a full attack at the end of a charge, including when mounted.
10 Einherji Bonus Feats
The herjagner gains einherjar bonus feats at 3rd, 9th and 15th level. Each feat can be assigned to one of the herjagner's einherji, which will provide the benefits of the feat while manifested. The herjagner may choose any feat for which she qualifies while in any manifestation, and may later retrain any or all of these feats for free whenever she gains an additional einherji or combines them in new manifestations at 5th, 10th, 12th, 16th and 20th level. This does not allow the herjagner to disregard any feat prerequisites in any of her manifestations (for example, only while manifesting a fighter einherji can the herjagner gain the benefits of a fighter-only bonus feat).
11 Martial Stance
At 4th level, the herjagner gains the use of one 1st level martial stance of her choice. The stance can belong to any martial discipline, and the herjagner counts her class levels as initiator levels for any level dependent benefits and uses the normal skill and ability score associated with the discipline. At 14th level, she gains the use of a second martial stance of 6th level or lower in the same discipline. (Martial stances for PF can be found in Path of War by Dreamscarred Press. These may be replaced by a stance from Tome of Battle (from 3.5) or any other suitable similar ability at the DM's discretion.)
12 As One
At 5th, 8th and 12th level, the herjagner can permanently manifest one class feature gained by any of her einherjar. The chosen feature is exactly the same as the feature of her einherji (same choice of options, same archetype etc), and the herjagner counts her class levels as levels in the class from which the feature originates when calculating any level dependent benefits. Any of these permanently manifested features may be changed at 8th and 12th level.
13 Battleshift (Su)
At 6th level, the herjagner can briefly change einherjar manifested as a move action, and may keep the changed manifestation with no additional actions in consequitive turns. She may use Battleshift a total number of rounds per day equal to half her class levels. At 14th level, the herjagner can use Battleshift as a free action, or as an immediate action when she is targeted by an enemy attack or exposed to any other hostile effect.
14 Combined Resistance
At 7th level, the herjagner always uses the best progression of each save any of her einherji grants, regardless of her current manifestation.
15 Warrior Senses
At 8th level, as a move action, the herjagner can gain blindsense up to a range of 5 feet per 4 levels (maximum 25 feet at 20th level) until the start of her next turn. At 13th level, she instead gains blindsight with the same range, and at 17th level, the blindsight is constant.
16 Dual Manifestation
At 10th level, the herjagner can manifest two of her einherjar simultaneously, gaining the bonuses and features of both and class bonuses to saves from either. (See further details in the "Einherjar" section below.)
17 Adapted Resistance
At 11th level, the herjagner can switch one of her manifested einherjar's Fortitude, Reflex or Will save progressions with the progression of another save of the same einherji (for example switching a fighter einherji's fast Fortitude progression with its slow Will progression). She can only do this if the switched progressions would otherwise be identical to another simultaneously manifested einherji. The changes apply to Combined Resistance and may be altered at 12th, 16th and 20th level. In addition, whenever two or more of her simultaneously manifested einherjar provide a fast progression to the same type of save (after any switching), the herjagner gains a +3 bonus to that save.
Abyssal Abby and the Curse of the Cloud King The thrilling story of a level 11 bloodrager trying to claw her way into tier 3
First off, I absolutely love the concept of the bloodrager - having the primal rage of the barbarian meet the exotic sorcerer bloodlines makes for a very cool hybrid of the base features. IMO, bloodrage feels like a marriage made in heaven (or hell/abyss/whatever, depending on your preferences), perfect for a truly monstrous or odd character. Combined with the melee focus and the unique limited arcane casting, I think the bloodrager is conceptually perhaps the most unique and interesting class in the playtest. Great idea, Paizo!
Since my group won't have the time for a regular play test, I decided to test the class myself by taking a bloodrager through three scenarios/encounters. Fortunately, a friend became interested and played Abyssal Abby instead. I wanted to see how well the class would fit with my group's play style: less numerous but a lot more challenging and lethal battles than according to guidelines, and PC builds mechanically optimized for party balance (we try to avoid easily game breaking unbalanced party configurations (like the classic fighter, wizard, cleric and rogue), instead deciding on a tier, usually 3, as a target for our PCs' power level). As the bloodrager seemed like basically an odd barbarian with a minor in arcane casting, I figured it could perhaps be possible to put together a build both true to it's character concept and with enough flexibility and raw power both in and out of combat to fullfill its melee striker/damage dealer role in a tier 3 party. IOW, in this test, I primarily looked at how well the fluff concept could be reflected in crunch and compared mechanical functionality and usefulness to builds of classes capable of filling a similar striker role in tier 3 (like a highly optimized Beast Totem/Spell Sunder barbarian or a hypothetical PF warblade).
Abyssal Abby:
Fluff Abby is a tiefling with some really worrisome deep rooted family issues. Most would say she seems unusually fiendish even when she's in a good and relaxed mood. The remarkably clear signs of those unfortunate family issues - her sinous tail, her black and orange skin, her smile having trouble hiding razor sharp pointed teeth - have sometimes even led learned men into mistaking her for a half-fiend. And yet, when angered, her demonic heritage is ten times as obvious, transforming her body into a large terrifying monster of flaming claws, long fangs and bulging muscles eager to unleash bloody carnage, her eyes burning with the violent fury and arcane power of her pit-born black blood.
Fortunately, despite all the prejudice and hatred Abby has faced in her life, she grew up to be a good-natured and warm-hearted person, her abyssal rage only awakened when confronted with truly evil beings.
The concept I was aiming for was something like a more scary demonic fantasy version of the Hulk, kind of the classic werewolf/Mr. Hyde theme taken to its maximum in PF.
Defense AC 25 (21), touch 15 (11), flat-footed 22 (19)
HP 109 (153), DR 2/, Resist 5 electricity (5 acid, cold, fire)
Fort 11 (14), Ref 9 (8), Will 5 (8), CMD 33 (36)
Offense Melee - bloodrage power attack vs. Evil: 2 claws +19*, 4d6+18, +1d6 fire
bite** +19*, 1d8+2d6+18
gore** +18, 1d8+2d6+17
*Includes the +1 bonus of Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes. **Does not require bloodrage
Abby's natural attacks have the good aligned and magic qualities.
Space 5 (10) ft.; Reach 5 (10) ft.; CMB 19* (23*)
Eldritch Heritage Abyssal Bloodline Claws:
6 times/day, Abby can make 2 additional claw attacks when taking the full attack action.
Cornugon Smash:
with each Power Attack dealing damage, free demoralize attempt: +21 (25) Intimidate check vs. DC 10 +target's HD +wis mod.
DPR and demoralize vs. typical CR 11 evil enemy wrote:
DPR (incl. crits) and average damage of power attacks vs. AC 24:
claw: 30 DPR
76% chance of 35.5 avrg normal dmg (26.98) + 4% chance of 71 avrg crit dmg (2.84) bite: 25 DPR
76% chance of 29.5 avrg normal dmg (22.42) + 4% chance of 59 avrg crit dmg (2.36) gore: 22 DPR
71.25% chance of 28.5 avrg normal dmg (20.31) + 3.75% chance of 57 avrg crit damage (2.14) FULL ATTACK: 107 DPR
2 x 29.82 (2 claws) + 29.78 (bite) + 22.45 (gore)
with Eldritch Heritage Claws: 161 DPR
106.87 (full attack DPR) + 2 x 27.17 (2 claws @ -1 atk/dmg)
Demoralize chance of success vs. DC 28: 68% per claw/bite, 64% per gore/eldritch claw
80% (claws, bite) or 75% (gore, eldritch claws) hit chance and 85% chance of success per hit (intimidate 24 vs. 16 HD/wis 15 enemy)
Spells
1st 3/day: cause fear*, color spray, floating disc, grease, shield, vanish 2nd 2/day: bull's strength*, defensive shock, brow gasher, glitterdust, invisibility 3rd 2/day: blink, major image, monstrous physique I *Abyssal Bloodline bonus spell
Greater Bloodrage 27 rounds/day: +6 str, +6 con, +3 will, may choose to include demonic bulk
Demonic Bulk large size: as enlarge person (+5 ft. space/reach, +2 str, +1 CMB/CMD, -2 dex, -1 BAB, AC)
Notable Items +3 Mithral Breastplate, Holy Amulet of Mighty Fists, +1 Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes, +2 Cloak of Resistance, +2 Belt of Physical Perfection, +2 Ring of Protection, +2 Headband of Alluring Charisma, Wing Harness (10 charges), Boots of Speed, Helm of the Mammoth Lord, Flawed Pale Ruby Trillian, mwk thieves' tools
Haven't looked up the total sum of this stuff and compared it to the WBL table, but it should be pretty close.
Comments
I've basically tried to pack as many effective demon related options as possible into a level 11 bloodrager build, trying to find good synergies between the mechanics (Cha-based casting, fiendish heritage benefit, intimidating prowess etc) that I also think reflect the concept well (natural attacks, high intimidate skill, cornugon smash etc). One of the more fun and flavorful additions I think is the Eldritch Heritage feat chain, adding powers from the sorcerer Abyssal Bloodline to the Bloodrager Abyssal Bloodline. This gives Abby clawed feet to match her hands for a kick-a$$ (pun intended) damage boost with a few full attacks per day plus a higher strength, and, most importantly, makes her (almost) twice as demonic! Cuz dis fiend biatch be WAY down kickin' it witta real cruel crew, aight! Yeah, she be one phat flamin' hot bada$$ mutha'f- ...
Ehrm... Got a bit carried away there, sorry...
The Curse of the Cloud King:
Background
This was a rather hastily put together series of situations designed to test Abyssal Abby's abilities, but as my friend decided to play her (and then did so with the passion worthy of an Oscar) the story and challenges had to become quite a bit more elaborate. But I'll to spare you from reading all that here (and spare me from writing it) and focus on Abby's mechanical performance and how well it meshes with the concept instead.
As Abby is without a party, I've tried to put together challenges which could represent her responsibilities in a party, i.e. the situations she would be expected to solve without needing to rest and using a minimum of party resources. Abby has also been given a unique home brew item - The Heal-o-meter Rod - to simulate party healing resources. When a creature holds this rod with both hands for at least one round, she gains fast healing 10 for as long as she maintains her grip, but also becomes immobile and loses all senses except that of time passing. The rod doesn't require any concentration (Abby can use it while raging).
The Adventure
The mayor of the small town of Cloudfall, an old acquaintance of Abby, has asked our young adventurer to look into recent mysterious disappearances and sightings of terrible creatures in the area. First, Abby decides to try and investigate the unusually friendly and civilized local tribe of kobolds, the "Aussirnoach", that used to trade with the town but now hasn't been seen in weeks.
Kobold Conundrum! CR ?: Several challenges, of easy to medium difficulty, primarily involving disable device, stealth and intimidate(/diplomacy) in the maze-like home of the Aussirnoach kobold tribe
Not surprisingly, Abby managed this well - she got the info she needed to continue, a way to even the odds a bit in her upcoming encounter with the dragon Albriinah and was also able to release prisoners, all within the time limit and without making her presence known to the kobolds prematurely or having to resort to lethal violence (bonus points!). The only worry here was her dependency on limited resources, especially spells and items.
Resources Spent: 1 round of sorcerer bloodline claws (5 left), 1 1st level spell slot (2 left), 1 2nd level spell slot (1 left), 2 rounds of bloodrage (25 left), 3 rounds of haste (7 left), 1 min. of fly (9 left), 35 HP healed
Dragon Drama! CR 11+ (approx. 15.000 xp): Albriinah - Mature Adult White Dragon (CR 11) in a temple ruin perched at the snow-clad peak of a mountain (terrain and the need to keep the dragon from escaping with a vital item makes the encounter harder than CR 11)
Abby succeeds here as well, killing the dragon after a demoralizing surprise charge followed by a round of trading claws and fangs with Albriinah in an orgy of natural attacks (six by the dragon and seven by Abby!). But this encounter was both difficult and dangerously swingy, largely because Abby has no effective means to improve her action economy. Consequently it would've been near impossible for her to succeed had as much as one critical roll of the die been less lucky.
For example, Albriinah likely would have killed Abby if she had been spotted and robbed of her surprise attack, which could easily have been the case despite Abby's carfulness and decision to charge flying from afar rather than risk the hazardous terrain or sneaking closer (she had been warned the dragon was perceptive but didn't know of its blindsight). And had Abby reduced Albriinah to about half HP or less without killing her, it's likely the dragon simply would've withdrawn from melee and taken to the air instead - either to flee with the item or to blast Abby with her breath and spells - which would've made Abby easy prey, or at least made the situation near unsolvable due to the dragon's very high fly speed and Abby having no time for a prolonged hunt or to wait for another day.
Resources Spent: 1 round of sorcerer bloodline claws (4 left), 1 1st level spell slot (1 left), 2 rounds of bloodrage (23 left), 1 round of haste (6 left), 1 min. of fly (8 left), 89 HP healed (124 in total)
Zombie Bonanza! CR 13+ (approx. 30.000 xp): Voidstick Zombie (CR 12) commanding a pair of Cloud Giant Zombies (each CR 7) and a "trap" which creates an additonal cloud giant zombie every third round of combat at (set) initiative 20 (1 round action to shut down), in a large dark cathedral.
Thanks to several spells, notably blink and haste, clever positioning and pure luck, Abby managed to shut down the "zombie generator" after having barely survived six rounds of intense combat against a total of five zombies. At first, this encounter felt slightly less risky than the dragon, mostly because the giant zombies are lacking in good ranged offense, mobility, AC and any form of tactical sense without their voidstick leader to command them, but it soon turned out to be the nightmare I had hoped for. These shuffling brain eaters' most dangerous advantages are size and very high attack bonuses, combined with the the undead trait and the voidstick zombie's lifesense ability (making them immune to Abby's demoralize attempts and in practice also stealth or a surprise attack from Abby). As with the dragon, Abby was especially lacking in abilities improving her action economy, making this final encounter very difficult.
Resources Spent: 4 rounds of sorcerer bloodline claws (0 left), 1 1st level spell slot (0 left), 2 3rd level spell slots (0 left), 7 rounds of bloodrage (16 left), 6 rounds of haste (0 left), 132 HP healed (256 in total)
Impression & Suggestions
My friend loved playing Abby and said she'd like to continue her adventures. I also had a great time building and DM:ing the bloodrager, but I've already told you I love the flavor of the class. Here I will instead primarily give my opinions on the mechanics, especially those I believe don't achieve their goal and/or poorly represent the flavor, plus my suggestions on how to improve those less functional mechanics. As I've deliberately avoided reading most threads related to the class in order to make my own impressions and minimize any potential prejudism, it's likely I'll repeat some things here that have already been said several times by other posters. I apologize for any such needless repetition, but it seemed better than the alternative.
The Good and the Bad
Good (or at least not bad)
1 Good high tier 4 melee striker
2 No single no-brainer mechanical build (AFAICT)
3 Great flavor
Bad
1 Not good enough for tier 3
2 Very limited offense-focused spell list and no supporting action economy mechanic
3 Too MAD for functional offensive casting
4 Bloodlines are too varied in power/usefulness
5 Poor matching of most Bloodlines' mechanical benefits
6 Fast Movement and especially Uncanny Dodge seem out of place
The Good and the Bad in Detail:
Good (or at least not bad) 1 Good high tier 4 melee striker:
The bloodrager seems about comparable to the average barbarian or paladin, meaning it's likely balanced to most other tier 4-5 classes.
2 No single no-brainer mechanical build:
AFAICT, no single Bloodline or build combo seems vastly mechanically superior (compare to for example a human sorcerer or rage-cycling pouncing superstitious barbarian). This might very well just be me not seeing it though...
3 Great flavor:
Mostly a question of taste, of course, but I think even people who don't particularly appreciate the flavor will agree it's at least distinct and unique enough.
Bad 1 Not good enough for tier 3:
IMO, if there's one thing PF desperately needs, it's full-BAB classes firmly above tier 4, classes with the raw power and flexibility to at least match the bard, inquisitor and magus. And the bloodrager seems like a perfect candidate to become the first, needing only a few changes and additions to get there.
2 Very limited offense-focused spell list and no supporting action economy mechanic:
Simply put, the magus spell list requires a mechanic which allows for casting in the same round as attacking. As it stands, I don't think the spell list have enough useful options to even fill the few spells known by a bloodrager. (I think less than nine of the twelwe spells my test bloodrager Abby knew were good and useful spells (she only found a use for five of those in the short test adventure), and I have a hard time seeing very different selections being much better for other builds, despite Abby's list being matched with expensive items and intended for solo adventuring.)
3 Too MAD for functional offensive casting:
Related to #2, the bloodrager is primarily a melee class and simply cannot afford to keep all her physical abilities more than decent as well as her cha anyway near high enough to make offensive casting worthwhile. At least not without a good mechanic allowing casting in melee and scaling bonuses to spell DC.
4 Bloodlines are too varied in power/usefulness:
Seems to me that for example the Abyssal and Arcane Bloodlines are clearly more powerful than the Fey or Undead Bloodlines. Would be great to see tuned up versions of the weaker Bloodlines.
5 Poor matching of most Bloodlines' mechanical benefits:
I think most benefits seem to be pretty much in line with the flavor and theme of the Bloodline they belong to. But it appears either as if many of them have been chosen without considering how well they match with the Bloodline's other benefits mechanically, or as if most Bloodlines have no clear mechanical objectives, causing many benefits to be well-suited thematically but all over the place mechanically.
A few examples from the Abyssal Bloodline: A) Trademark power seems to be the claws at 1st level, but for example the list of bonus feats offer generic combat feats (most of them being subpar and/or irrelevant for natural attacks) and the bonus spells focus on strength, fear and increased AC, while no benefit focuses on the claws (besides the claws power itself). Which begs the question: were the Abyssal bloodrager intended to use the claws as a default weapon? If so, why does the list of bonus feats include, for example, Cleave, Impr. Bull Rush and Impr. Sunder rather than Impr. Natural Attack, Impr. Unarmed Strike and Feral Combat Training? Why not magic fang instead of cause fear? If the claws are only intended as an alternative for odd niche characters to focus on, or something which might, at best, be situationally useful in one fight every fifth level or so when the bloodrager has lost her manufactured weapons, why allow the claws to define the Bloodline as much? B) The bonus spells cause fear and bull's strength may be thematically fitting, but they're gained at level 7 and 10, long after they've become near useless or redundant.
There are several weird mechanically ill-suited "benefits" like these to be found in the play test Bloodlines, especially among the bonus feats and spells and especially, I suspect, if those are mostly just copied from the sorcerer version of the bloodline.
6 Fast Movement and especially Uncanny Dodge seem out of place:
I think the bloodrager gets more than enough from the barbarian through proficiencies, BAB, saves and the whole rage feature chain. It would also be more in line with the hybrid concept if the bloodrager used spells to get similar benefits.
Suggestions
Corresponding to the points in the "Bad" list above:
1 Not good enough for tier 3:
I would propose giving the bloodrager 3/4 casting like the summoner/inquisitor, but with only half the spell slots per level open to any known spell, and half the spells known per level chosen from the class list (see #2). I would change Fast Movement into something pounce-ish scaling up to a "mini-capstone" at level 10. Perhaps a full-round action including the casting of an instant damage spell and then a charge ending with up to half the number of melee attacks the bloodrager can make in a full attack. ("Arcane Assault"? "Bloodrace"? Or maybe "Spellpounce"? Wouldn't recommend "Bloodpounce" or "Spellrace" though...)
2 Very limited offense-focused spell list and no supporting action economy mechanic:
The bloodrager likely needs its own list, regardless of casting mechanics and number of spells/day. I would suggest a limited mix of blasts, self-buffs and a little utility from the sorcerer's list for the mentioned "half summoner/inquisitor"-slots, plus an equal number of "Bloodline slots/known" chosen from a very short list unique to each Bloodline (primarily containing instant damage spells). The Bloodline spells would require raging but receive a scaling bonus to DC.
3 Too MAD for functional offensive casting:
See above. If staying with the ranger/paladin number of spell slots/known, I would definitely suggest a scaling bonus to DC.
4 Bloodlines are too varied in power/usefulness:
Should sort itself out with this play test. I would very much recommend not to tone down the more powerful though, but rather tune up the less powerful ones. See also #5 and #6.
5 Poor matching of most Bloodlines' mechanical benefits:
Since many of these problems seem to stem from Bloodline benefits being copied from the sorcerer versions, I guess this is mainly a question of checking each Bloodline's copied benefits and change those with poor mechanical functionality/consistency. I would also urge that each Bloodline gets evaluated and fixed until the answer is "yes" to the following four questions:
a) "Does the Bloodline have a clear and unique mechanical intent applicable to the bloodrager?" (is it clear what unique type of bloodrager the combined benefits are supposed to enable),
b) "Does the Bloodline's mechanics work towards that intent?",
c) "Does the mechanics support each other and the other bloodrager class mechanics well?", and
d) "Are the resulting combined mechanical benefits balanced to the other Bloodlines?"
6 Fast Movement and especially Uncanny Dodge seem out of place:
Dump 'em.
Well, that's finally the end of my wall of text. I hope someone has the stamina to read it and find at least some useful info or ideas there.
I think a few areas of the grappling RAW are annoyingly vague or produce weird results, so this is an attempt to clarify and correct these areas. I would very much appreciate your help and input on making this "house errata", ensuring it’s as close to both RAW and what we believe to be RAI as possible (or correct me if I’ve missed something in the current rules).
In addition, I believe the numbers in the grappling rules have rather counter-intuitive effects, so I also have a more typical house rule suggestion that could need some polishing from you.
First, the vague or weird parts of the current RAW and my “errata” so far:
1. Grapple + Reach:
1. Initiating grapple with reach:
Grapple wrote:
If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space...
This means that if, for example, an enlarged PC successfully grapples a non-adjacent BBEG, the PC can also immediately drop the BBEG into whatever burning pit/acid pool/horrible black void the PC might be adjacent to, and the BBEG isn't even allowed a save. The lack of a small and simple addition makes this inconsistent with the grapple “Move” action and allows for some ridiculously devastating combos. Makes me believe this obvious error is just an editing mistake, not a rules design flaw and certainly not intentional.
Errata: Copy and paste the following line to the section above:
Grapple “Move” action wrote:
If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
2. The 2H Myopia:
2. The "two hands" and "a" in the grapple and grappled condition texts (my emphasis):
“If You Are Grappled” wrote:
...you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon...
If following these insufficient rules to the letter, you’ll often get very large, (mostly) unjustified and sometimes plain silly differences between how affected even similar creatures’ offense are by being grappled, for example:
A. A creature with six hands cannot attack with any of the three falchions it wields as those attacks require two hands.
B. If the same creature instead wields six battleaxes, it may attack with one of these - ”a light or one-handed weapon”.
C. If the creature instead has six claw attacks, it can make all six in a full attack since claw attacks don’t require hands at all, and neither are claws ”a light or one-handed weapon”.
D. If the creature instead has three slam attacks it can make all of them, except those using arms ending in hands (as in the case of an eidolon’s arms, for example).
Did the devs suddenly forget they’ve designed plenty of creatures other than humanoids with one pair of hands? Maybe those creatures weren’t supposed to be involved in grappling…
The FAQ does give us a few hints on the RAI, but also confuses things by being even more focused on creatures with two hands (my emphasis):
FAQ wrote:
The RAW do allow the grappled to make a full attack action, assuming they can do so with only one hand.
The RAW states that the action cannot require two hands, which I believe is far from the same as saying only attacks that can be taken ”with only one hand” are possible. Is a grappled creature’s full attack limited to attacks using only a single hand? Or is it limited to attacks that don’t require two hands?
FAQ wrote:
You are no longer draped all over the target. It is more like you got a hold on them, typically an arm (hence the restriction) .
So the intent of the “no-2H-actions”-rule, AFAICT, is to reflect that an opponent has got hold of one of the grappled creature’s limbs – ”typically an arm” – which thus cannot be used to take actions. Is it RAI that grappled creatures without the hands or weapon/attack types mentioned in the RAW should also have their actions limited by having one less important limb at their disposal? If so, how do you find out which limb has been taken hold of?
Errata:
House Errata Grapple wrote:
...attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, [choose one of the foe’s limbs (arm, leg, head, tail, tentacle, wing etc.). Until the grapple ends, the foe cannot take actions requiring the use of the chosen limb. For example, choosing an arm prevents the foe from taking actions using a handheld item (such as a weapon attack) with that arm, choosing the head prevents the foe from making bite and gore attacks etc. Constant abilities or properties bound to the limb, such as speech, sight or worn items, are unaffected. In addition,] both you and the target...
Errata:
House Errata Grapple “If You Are Grappled” wrote:
...you can take any action that doesn’t require [the use of the limb the foe has chosen when initiating the grapple. Typically, this means] you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform, such...
3. Grappled vs. Pinned:
1. Easier to escape Pinned than Grappled:
Pinned wrote:
Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack....
Grapple “Pin” action wrote:
…you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Let’s say a lvl 8 barb PC is being grappled by a villain with approximately similar stats. The barb has a CMB of 16 (8 bab, 8 str) and the villain a CMD of 27 (8 bab, 7 str, 4 dex, -2 dex grappled), meaning each escape attempt made by the barb has a 50% chance of succeeding. If the villain pins the barb, the barb’s CMB remains unaffected while the villain’s CMD loses the Dex bonus, and suddenly the barb has a 60% chance of succeeding on an escape attempt. This seems to run counter to the description and RAI of pinned being a more serious and physically restraining condition than grappled.
Errata:
House Errata Grapple “Pin” action wrote:
…you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC, [but your CMD receives no penalty versus the pinned enemy’s combat maneuver checks to escape].
What do you think? Are there any less complex or otherwise better ways to handle these issues, without deviating further from RAW and RAI?
And second, the house rule suggestion:
Changed CMB/CMD bonuses:
1. Easier to initiate grapple than to prevent escape from grapple:
The grappled condition gives dex penalties while Greater Grapple, Grab and the inherent +5 bonus to maintain only give bonuses to CMB on grapple checks, not to CMD. This means most creatures, especially those focusing on grapple, usually have a very good chance of succeeding on their initial grapple attempt, but have a relatively poor chance of preventing the grappled enemy from escaping on the enemy’s turn. This is very counter-intuitive, IMO, since it means it’s easy to establish a hold, but difficult to keep it. In addition, the inherent +5 bonus to CMB checks to maintain a grapple suggests the RAI is that it should indeed be easier to keep the hold than to establish it.
House Rule:
House Ruled Grappled condition said wrote:
Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity, , [but the CMD of the creature initiating the grapple instead gains a +1 bonus versus the grappled enemy’s combat maneuver checks made to escape or reverse the grapple].
The feat Feral Combat Training implies you normally cannot make use of feats such as Improved Grapple using natural weapons. So if following the normal PC creation rules, an eidolon who wants Improved (or Greater) Grapple would first need:
1 IUS
2 Weapon Focus (for whatever attack supposed to be doing the grappling)
3 Feral Combat Training
This seems to be totally independent on whether the eidolon has the Grab evolution and even whether the limb/attack in question has ever been able to make regular unarmed strikes to begin with.
However, if the eidolon has the Grab evolution and it counts as a monster ability, it seems none of these prerequisites are needed for IG (see for example the Blood Wight).
Q 1: Which set of rules should be used with the Eidolon?
Q 2: What are the prerequisites for applying IG to an eidolon's natural attack without the Grab evolution (such as a claw attack)?
In addition, according the updated Grab rules for monsters, a creature with the Grab ability can use it against any creature of its own size or smaller, while the Grab evolution text follows the outdated monster rules which requires the grabbed creature to be at least one size category smaller.
If eidolon evolutions are supposed to follow monster rules when applicable (makes the most sense, IMO), it also appears to me as if the grab evolution text should've been changed accordingly but was simply missed/forgotten.
Q 3: Is it reasonable to/should I use the updated Grab monster rules with the Grab evolution?
As a sidenote, the old eidolon sample build "Nom Beast" found in The Summoner's Handbook takes IUS and IG as first feats and gets the Grab evolution much later (with the Large evolution). It's unclear whether the eidolon was supposed to be able to apply the IG bonuses to grapple checks made before getting the Grab evolution. This build was created before FCT existed, and it seems nobody questioned that an eidolon's natural attack would benefit from IG, as long as the normal PC prerequisite IUS had also been fulfilled.
I'm in a group of old grognards, all pretty experienced D&D players but new to PF. In a couple of weeks we're starting our first PF campaign and have been discussing how to avoid a party of PCs at wildly different power levels - a problem that too often made our 3.x games less fun after about level 10 and/or turned our poor DM's job into a nightmare. As I have more time to spend nerding through build options than anyone else in the group, I'm putting together the crunch for two of the PC's and help with ideas, conversions, balancing etc for the other two. As a PF noob I would really appreciate your learned input, advice, tips and suggestions on whether I have cause to worry about party imbalance and if so how to tweak the builds to minimize the risks.
The Party:
Our initial idea was to play a cleric, a wild shape ranger (as the 3.5 UA variant), a crusader (3.5 ToB) and a wizard, but after looking through the PF rules and discovering some new interesting and hopefully more balanced class options around tier 3, we're working on the following setup:
Inquisitor, probably human or garuda-blooded archer type. Primary ranged combatant, healer and monster lore specialist.
Human Summoner. Eidolon developing into a "caster-swallowing combat maneuver mike"(?), summoner primary buff, BC and diplomat. (My PC.)
Goliath Crusader, conversions of 3.5 material (non-LA PF custom goliath with 10 RP). Party supertank, combat leader and intimidation specialist.
Oni-Spawn Shapeshifter Ranger, houseruled for full druid Wild Shape instead of animal companion. Primary striker, scout and skill-monkey.
The goal here is to keep everyone in or close to tier 3 while each PC has something unique to contribute with both in- and out of combat. All are 20 point builds. We're starting at level 3 with a modified version of the Kingmaker campaign and will likely continue beyond level 15. Equipment in general and suitable magic items in particular will be scarce (crafting skills and feats are vital).
First, I'm worried about the combat ability of the ranger (I think WS and skills should secure his OoC jobs and give him plenty of flexibility). As the primary striker, his damage output should generally be the best in the party, but even though his full attack certainly brings more pain than a fighter, pally or other ranger could, during most of the earlier levels I'm having trouble bringing him up to par with the eidolon - which isn't even optimized for damage and much less a full PC striker.
1 - Is this to be expected?
2 - If so, any good suggestions on how to avoid having the low-optimized summoner being the party's best caster while his low-optimized eidolon, by itself, is also being the best striker?
More importantly, the few options I've found that may improve the ranger's action economy and combat flexibility are all too little, too late and usually also impossible to integrate with the build. For example, just to get a limited pounce ability he would either have switch primary class (to a mobile fighter or a beast totem barbarian) and/or race (to kitsune). (He's already full of racial alternatives and dips into barbarian and monk for damage and combat versatility).
3 - How can the ranger avoid being left with an awesome full attack but no good way to use it during later levels?
Second, the inquisitor player has perhaps been the most worried about party imbalance, but mainly because of different levels optimization rather than inherent class differences. Although this is highly unlikely to become problematic, the rest of the group would like to ensure his PC has something to shine with in combat. While I think the inquisitor belongs in tier 3 (does it?), I'm having trouble finding that something to make this player feel his PC is just as special as the other members of the party (which already has two superior strikers, an awesome tank and a great buffer). It's very possible I'm missing something simply because I find it hard to estimate how the class performs, so please let me know if that's the case.
4 - What can I do to give the inquisitor something to shine with in combat?
Side note: having read through (I hope) the most relevant changes that separate the PF classes from their old 3.5 counterparts, my impression is that the typical 3.5 class tiers remain in PF and associated problems unfortunately haven't been addressed. On the contrary, it seems most of the precious few options non-casters had in 3.5 that could allow them to step up a tier are gone in PF, while there's nothing to decrease the massive relative advantages casters have. If my impression is correct, I'm in for an even greater challenge than a 3.5 party would've presented... :-(
Please let me know if you think I've got it wrong and why! If not, does anyone know the reason for Paizo's choice to ignore the, IMO, most glaring problem with 3.x?
