Options / combos allowing martials to disregard their damage output?


Advice


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Are martial characters barred from focusing on something other than damage if they want to remain at least somewhat useful in combat beyond 10th level? Can for example a 20th level fighter or barbarian gain control/buff/debuff/tanking/defender abilities powerful enough to make their ability to lower enemy hp largely irrelevant? Or at least powerful enough allow them to be as effective as their DPR-optimized counterparts, despite a much lower damage output capacity?

If you know of any such Paizo and/or DSP options/combos/builds or have one of your own, please post a link or summary here and describe what it does!

In my experience, the answer is "yes" to the first question and "no" to the other two, particularly in games limited to Paizo sources, and even more so in games limited to only the "core" CRB options. In games including Path of War (or adapted ToB) options, I think such non-DPR focused martials generally do a lot better, but it seems to me that is also mostly because of the high actual baseline DPR being built into the martial maneuver system, not mostly because the non-damage related options are powerful enough to make the build's damage output capacity largely irrelevant.

I think I might have proven myself wrong with my most recent build experiment, although as far as I know, I've just stumbled upon a few odd combos allowing for an extremely rare exception. As its effectiveness is also dependent on tons of very specific options from wildly different sources, it also an annoyingly complex build which has very little room for variations.

But I'm certain there are loads of nifty combos and much more efficient builds than mine that proves martials really can be effective in higher level combat without having to deal much damage at all. Please enlighten me!

As a rough definition of "effective", think of what a reasonably optimized DPR-focused martial of equal level is capable of, for example how powerful and/or how many enemies it's typically able to remove from combat on an average round. If you know of an option or a combo of options that could help a non-damage focused martial match that level of usefulness in higher levels, or maybe a complete build that can, it fits here!


Nothing?

Guess I should start myself by detailing the three more effective martial control and debuff combos I've been toying with and that I haven't seen used or discussed anywhere else:

Black Hole Control Combo:

This tank-/defender-centric combo demands a lot of resources, is highly dependent on access to specific items, and is also useless against the many enemies immune to trip. But at least as far as I can tell from my play testing, once it starts to get going I think it's just hilariously effective in many combat scenarios, beyond comparison to that of any other martial control combo limited to Paizo sources I've ever seen in play.

It's key component is Wolf Trip. Or more specifically, the following line in the feat's benefit description:

"While using Wolf Style, whenever you successfully trip a creature, as a free action you may choose an available square adjacent to you for the tripped creature to land prone in."

By itself and at first glance, this isn't anything spectacular. When added to a rather classic melee trip combo with Combat Reflexes, Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp and a boosted melee reach, it allows for the Vicious Stomp AoO to be triggered if the target was tripped in a non-adjacent space using a reach weapon, and it can also make it harder for a tripped monster to get away and chew on squishy allies. Useful if the goal is to ramp up damage through AoOs, and it can be very good for locking down a target when combined with other melee control and debuff abilities. But it's not exactly enabling anything revolutionary, and it's typically not as vital as many other feats are for dedicated trip or control builds.

However, as Wolf Trip has no range limit whatsoever, imagine if we could trip an enemy from, say, up to more than 300 feet away? And imagine if we could do that with every attack in a full attack, on top of dealing normal damage?

Well I say: Yes we can!

And here are the best options I've found to make it happen:

A. The 7th level benefit of the Throw Shield feature of the Shield Champion brawler archetype: "At 7th level, a shield champion can use a thrown shield to perform a bull rush, dirty trick, disarm, reposition, or trip combat maneuver as if she were making a melee shield bash attack."

B. The Maelstrom Shield specific magic shield (14,170 gp) benefit: "When used to make a shield bash attack, the shield's wielder can make a trip attack as a free action against the same target without provoking an attack of opportunity from the creature being tripped."

C. The distance magic weapon ability, and preferably some basic ranged feats and the Shield Master feat.

D. A blinkback belt and the Quick Draw feat. Though neither are strictly needed for dealing with a single target, being able to cover enormous areas means having several ranged attacks per round allows for impressive mass-control capacity, one of the unique major potential strengths of the combo.

When combined with the previously mentioned standard trip combo, the end result is a highly versatile shield bash attack packed with control mechanics that can be repeated several times per round, requiring no or very few additional actions. The following details the events triggered by a single such "Black Hole" shield bash, though whether all or just a few are included and the exact order in which they're triggered may depend on other related components and, as far as I can tell from RAW, can be modified for each attack:

Black Hole Control in action wrote:

1. Shield bash attack, melee or thrown with a 60 ft range, made as a part of any action including one or more attacks, rolled as normal and dealing damage as normal.

2. Free bull rush attempt if the initial attack hits, the check using the die roll of the initial attack.

3. Free trip attempt regardless of whether the initial attack hits or misses. A few important details:
a) RAW, nothing specifies whether the trip attempt must be resolved before or after any bull rush attempt, or even before or after determining whether the initial attack hits. I assume this means the first roll made in the entire attack can actually be the trip check.
b) As far as I can tell, a free action attack (such as this trip attempt) that is not replacing a normal attack is rolled at full BAB unless otherwise noted, even if the event the free attack accompanies happens to be an iterative attack using a lower BAB.
c) In accordance with the FAQ regarding free action combat maneuver checks triggered by attacks, the trip attempt granted by the Maelstrom Shield can be made even if the triggering shield bash is made outside the attacker's turn, such as when making an AoO.

4. The shield returns to the blinkback belt and can be immediately drawn again as a free action. This may happen more than once, for example before and after making a ranged AoO. (Though it probably has no impact on the mechanics in this case, the belt's description can be interpreted to say an associated weapon always returns after each separate attack has been resolved, which in this case could result in the shield zipping back and forth several times during the course of the entire attack.)

5. The first combat maneuver triggers AoOs as appropriate on success - from allies only on a bull rush maneuver with Greater Bull Rush, or from the attacker as well as allies on a trip maneuver with Greater Trip. If the target is outside of the attacker's melee reach but within 30 ft., Relentless Shot allows the attacker to make a ranged AoO.

6. The second combat maneuver triggers AoOs as described above.

7. Target moved as free action and falls prone in a free adjacent space of the attacker's choice.

8. Vicious Stomp AoO triggered.

Note that no AoOs has to be made for the basic control mechanic to work since both the trip attempt and the moving of a tripped target to adjacent are free actions. And as mentioned, as far as I can tell the attacker can change the order of the above significantly. For example, the attacker could initiate a ranged/melee shield bash:

1) make the free trip attempt granted by the maelstrom shield
2) resolve any AoOs granted by Greater Trip
3) resolve the shield bash attack
6) move the target to adjacent using Wolf Trip
4) make the Vicious Stomp AoO triggered by the target falling prone
5) make the free bull rush attempt granted by Shield Slam
6) resolve any AoOs triggered by Greater Bull Rush

During a single full attack, a build affected by haste or similar with two maelstrom shields along with the full Two-Weapon Fighting feat chain, Combat Reflexes and a Dex of 40 could make all of the above combo up to eight times against as many enemies, each target risking being hit by a total of three damage-dealing attacks on top of being bull rushed, tripped, moved into a poor position and hit by several additional AoOs from the attacker's allies. But even without a high Dex score or using a single AoO, the combo still allows a defender to attack several distant enemies and gathering them up flat on their bellies within melee threat range.

I guess it's obvious why I call it the "Black Hole Control Combo". :p

Soulless Seraph Smash Combo:

This debuff combo relies on content from "Path of War: Expanded" currently being released by Dreamscarred Press, as the only Paizo option I know of which grants something even remotely similar is a feature of the Antipaladin, which is, out of all PF classes ever published, probably the one most rarely allowed and least often viable for a PC. (Besides, DSP is famous for making mechanically well-balanced and high quality PC options, and I think the freely available Path of War series is a great addition to any PF game.)

As you might have guessed, this is all about scarying enemies as far into uselessness as possible, radically improving the effectiveness and applicability of using Intimidation to demoralize enemies in combat. While the usefulness of combat demoralization is typically severely limited by frequently immune enemies and the limited effect, it does have the distinct advantage of having a check that can be made as a free action (with the right options) and which is based on an easily boosted skill. This means it can easily be combined with other effects and actions and also be effective even against a BBEG of a CR way above level, whereas most martial debuffs are stuck with a largely unimprovable DC far too low (10 + ½ level + not main stat) to be of much use, often in addition to being limited by poor action economy, lucky rolls and/or usages per day. This combo aims to capitalize on those strengths by removing the limitations of demoralization, turning it into a very reliable and powerful debuff/control ability. It includes:

A. The Cornugon Smash and Intimidating Prowess feats plus the cruel magic weapon ability (and "enough" ranks in Intimidate), a rather common combo. This grants a free demoralize attempt when dealing damage with Power Attack, adding Str to the Intimidate check on top of Cha, and a target already shaken (or worse) is also sickened (no save). The downside is that Cornugon Smash requires Power Attack, which is not only completely at odds with the goal of focusing on something other than damage, but also imparts penalties to attack and bonuses to damage when the opposite would've been ideal. But as far as I know, there are no better options available, as the reduced hit chance is typically still a small price to pay in comparison to the lost actions and/or additional feat slots required by the alternatives.

2. Soulless Gaze plus one other Damnation feat (Fiendskin is usually the best option) gives: "When you demoralize a creature more than once using Intimidate, you can create stronger fear conditions rather than increasing the duration of the shaken condition." And suddenly Cornugon Smash-ing a target more than once goes from "meh" to "awesome". But great power usually only comes at great cost: a character with Damnation Feats has been exposed to the corrupting influences of an evil outsider patron or ally, causing an alignment shift one step closer to that of the fiend and making it difficult to bring back the character from death.

A. The Black Seraph Style, Black Seraph’s Malevolence and Black Seraph Annihilation style feats, the mentioned options from Path of War: Expanded. Although the first two aren't useless, the most crucial and, as far as I know, highly unique benefit is provided by Black Seraph Annihilation: "Creatures within 30 feet of you lose immunity to fear. Creatures that are immune to mind-affecting effects can still be affected by fear, but gain a +5 resistance bonus to any saving throw granted." Hey all you undead and high CR monsters, you hear that? LOSE IMMUNITY TO FEAR! Yeah who's laughing now? *laughs maniacally* ...
Sorry, got a bit carried away there... Anyhow, the prerequisites worth noting is 11 ranks in Intimidate and knowing a stance in the Black Seraph martial discipline, which is usually only accessible via the Unorthodox Method trait or, for LN, LE or NE characters, the Black Thorn Knights martial tradition. But I still think this is a low price to pay for removing the greatest limitation of demoralization, especially since the Black Seraph discipline offers a lot of goodies for Intimidate-focused characters anyways. And the potential alignment requirements might actually fit perfectly with the alignment shift caused by the Damnation Feats...

Once all components are in place, any enemy within 30 feet that is damaged by Power Attacks three times or more in a round can be demoralized into becoming panicked, regardless of whether it's a mindless skeleton or a legendary evil such as the great Cthulu. And an enemy without total immunity is also sickened. In conclusion, the enemy:

Soulless Seraph Smash effects wrote:

1. takes a –4 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks and ability checks (and a –2 penalty on all weapon damage rolls)

2. drops anything it holds
3. must only take actions to flee at top speed from the source of its fear and any other dangers along a random path, using any special abilities needed

This is often more than enough to permanently remove the enemy from combat, even if it manages to flee. But in some more rare cases this combo can cause problems, allowing an enemy that must be caught or killed, and that otherwise would've been so, to successfully flee instead. So it's of course preferable to also restrict a panicked target's movement and shut down any of its other abilities allowing it to escape, especially if it's normally immune to fear/mind-affecting and thus no longer panicked once outside Black Seraph Annihilation's 30 feet range. And that is the goal of the Instant Imprisonment Combo described below.

Instant Imprisonment Combo:

This combo is mostly complementing the above two combos by restricting movement of hit enemies, stopping them from getting away from a "black hole"-type of controler/defender and/or a "soulless seraph smash"-type of debuffer:

A. The Wolf Style feat: "While using this style, whenever you deal at least 10 points of damage to a foe with an attack of opportunity, that foe's base speed decreases by 5 feet for 1 round. The foe's base speed decreases by an additional 5 feet for every 5 points of damage your attack deals beyond 10." As the black hole control combo can trigger plenty of AoOs (and requires Wolf Style anyways), this is a decent ability with which to stop enemies that use movement speed (rather than magic) to escape the black hole. The only part I find a little annoying is that it rewards a focus on damage, exactly the thing I'd like to be able to ignore. A soulless seraph smasher can also use it with for example the standard melee reach trip combo, the Come and Get Me rage power and/or anything else able to trigger plenty of AoOs.

B. The phase locking magic weapon ability applies an dimensional anchor effect, stopping the target from using any teleportation shenanigans to escape.

While dependent on dealing damage with AoOs, I believe this combo is the most effective available to martials, being relatively cheap and having rider effects (rather than requiring additional actions) that covers a large majority of the many ways in which a creature can change it's physical position.

And yes, all three combos can be combined in a single build, but as mentioned, all the specific requirements and tons of feats make it pretty damn complex. I'll post a full build as soon as I've added the necessary details to my rather bare-bones test build.

Please let me know if you've found any errors or highly questionable interpretations of RAW making any of these combos less functional than described. Comments, questions, improvement suggestions etc are of course also highly appreciated!


The Dirty Fighter can theoretically lock foes down pretty easily. My own such PC just got the ability at his most recent level though, and it has only come in handy once so far. My most recent generation of PCs is all martial, and I've found that there's a lot of good stuff to do with the Intimidate skill. The Viking and Feral Gnasher both have Terrifying Howl, and the Monk/Fighter and Feral Gnasher have Hurtful. Vicious Stomp + Enforcer + Hurtful is the Monk/Fighter's workhorse combo. Granted, it actually produces pretty good DPR, but the real point is to leave the enemy debuffed and help the other PCs get AoOs from Greater Trip (one of them even has Vicious Stomp too). He can replace attacks with dirty tricks, so the conditions can pile up quickly.

Grappling is kind of a mix between DPR and control. My FG has the Raging Grappler rage power, so he gets to knock foes prone when he maintains, and that's a pretty nice debuff.

In a more general sense I've found that high AC/defenses with a "slow and steady wins the combat" mentality can sometimes make for a reliable "lynchpin" PC to prevent TPKs.


Bodyguard builds (e.g. Order of the Dragon Honor Guard Cavalier)

Combat maneuver builds (e.g. Dirty Trick lockdown Maneuver Master Monk or Brawler)

Damage sponge builds (e.g. Crane Style Invulnerable Rager Barbarian)

Mantis Style Sensei Monk (Stunlocking enemies with ridiculously high DC Stunning Fist + supporting party with Bardic Performances)


Nonlethal damage to knock them out

Let them run in fear: Disheartening Display + high Intimidate + several other Demoralize feats


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Here's a level 9 build that can use reach tactics and poison to make a great number of attacks and cause a DC 24 Fortitude save vs. nausea after every hit, plus stacking on 4 other status effects on every sneak attack and performing the occasional dirty trick.

Weedy
Undine druid 4/unchained rogue (thug) 4/monk (maneuver master) 1

Stats:
Wis>Dex>Con - nothing else matters

Heresy inquisition

Traits: Bred for War, Potent Concoctions

Feats: Ability Focus (wild shape), Agile Maneuvers, Combat Reflexes, Improved Dirty Trick (monk bonus), Natural Spell, Shaping Focus, Weapon Finesse (rogue bonus), Weapon Focus (tentacle)(rogue bonus)

Rogue Talents: Distracting Attack, Weapon Training (tentacle)

Weedy in Action:
He uses Wild Shape to turn into a Weedwhip, which is a very interesting plant creature with 3 primary tentacle attacks and an excellent reach of 15 feet. Ordinary Weedwhips are unable to use this reach to its full potential, because they possess the ability Languid Whips, which prevents them from taking attacks of opportunity with their tentacles.

Wild shaping druids, however, do not gain that ability, so they can use the increased reach to take loads of attacks of opportunity. When you add that to the 3 tentacle attacks Weedy gets on a full-attack, you get quite a few attacks overall. So let's take a look at what these attacks can do.

And that brings us to the other important thing that Weedwhips have: poison.
Specifically, they have a contact poison on every tentacle that nauseates every round for 6 rounds and requires 2 consecutive saves to be cured. This may very well be the single most powerful poison that PCs of this level can gain access to.
For Weedwhips, its only drawback is the low save DC. But that's not a problem with Wild Shape - the save DC for this character will end up being around 24.

That alone would make this build worthwhile, but on every sneak attack, Weedy can also make his target sickened with Brutal Beating, flat-footed against one ally with Distracting Attack, frightened on a successful Intimidate check with Frightening, and debilitated with Debilitating Injury. Oh, and he gets a free dirty trick attempt with every full attack.

Fun times, fun times.


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I think my new favorite archetype of all time is the bounty hunter slayer. Every sneak attack doesn't do extra damage and instead gives a dirty trick with a bonus based on # of SA dice. Now, you stack the ability to blind, entangle, ect (or more with dirty trick master) with any fear build (enforcer or cornugon smash) and shatter defenses and EVERY attack is a sneak attack (including AOOs). So lets say an enlarged slayer with the long arm spell and a reach weapon is chilling in a square. That is 3 AOOs/dirty tricks on anyone stupid enough to approach (4 if you threaten with a non-reach weapon like bite or gauntlets) so now they are attacking you blind, entangled, sickened, and shaken. But wait, lets up the fear factor! Toss in soulless gaze, thug rogue, or unchained rogue skill unlock (intimidate) and instead of shaken they are now frightened. Which mean they have to immediately turn around and try and flee INSTEAD OF ATTACKING YOU. Oh did I mention that the archetype can dirty trick on ranged sneak attacks too? Oh yes. Greater invis, obscuring mist + goz mask, or even just blinding them with the first dirty trick and suddenly you are free to effectively remove people from combat withing 30 feat. What, too close? Yeah I agree. Grab the sniper goggles and now you can dirty trick as far as the eye can see and composite bow can reach.


There is the oradin. An oracle dip for life link, paladin the rest of the way to heal the party using swift action lay on hands while doing something else. That something else - well, smite evil works on combat maneuvers if you want to go that way.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Bodyguard builds (e.g. Order of the Dragon Honor Guard Cavalier)

While this is quite probably the best out-of-the-box defender option by Paizo, I really fail to see how it can remain as effective as it's damage-optimized counterpart above 10th level. I mean, it's defender abilities are not even close to that of the warder, and IME most builds of that class still cannot afford to ignore damage output capacity.

Secret Wizard wrote:
Combat maneuver builds (e.g. Dirty Trick lockdown Maneuver Master Monk or Brawler)

As far as I know, some of these are generally good at completely locking down one or maybe two opponents (like the tetori), or debuffing several targets (dirty trick specialists), but I haven't yet seen a build able to actually remove one or more CR=level enemies from combat each turn in higher levels.

The problem with those buils I've seen seems to be that they either lock themselves into locking down their target, that their thing is too often easily avoided by higher level enemies, or that their abilities simply aren't strong enough. I'd love to see a higher level build outline of an actually effective such combat maneuver specialist, perhaps with a comment on what it's actually capable of. You know of any such builds you might link to? Or maybe you could post one yourself?

Secret Wizard wrote:
Damage sponge builds (e.g. Crane Style Invulnerable Rager Barbarian)

With perhaps the very rare exception of some extremely odd party composition and a campaign consisting mostly of a series of cramped dungeon crawls, I cannot see how either of these can compete with DPR-focused builds in higher levels. But I might be completely wrong, and if so, please enlighten me!

Secret Wizard wrote:
Mantis Style Sensei Monk (Stunlocking enemies with ridiculously high DC Stunning Fist + supporting party with Bardic Performances)

This I can see working somewhat ok, though I guess it would be somewhat limited by daily uses?


SheepishEidolon wrote:

Nonlethal damage to knock them out

Let them run in fear: Disheartening Display + high Intimidate + several other Demoralize feats

How do you mitigate the normally horrible standard action requirement of Dazzling/Disheartening Display, and how do you make enemies frightened to begin with? Are those several feats useless against enemies that must not be allowed to flee or that are immune to fear or mind-affecting (as higher level enemies frequently are)?

Avoron wrote:
Nifty dirty rogue plant build

Nice, but I think a build whose whole trick is based on magically turning itself into a poisonous plant, and that has almost half its levels in full caster class, don't really qualify as martial. Not to mention that being effective at 9th level is a totally different thing than being effective at for example 15th or 20th (when for example many enemies, especially the more dangerous ones, are immune to poison).

avr wrote:
There is the oradin. An oracle dip for life link, paladin the rest of the way to heal the party using swift action lay on hands while doing something else. That something else - well, smite evil works on combat maneuvers if you want to go that way.

Yeah, besides some rider effects and swift action healing of PoW maneuvers, this is the only in-combat healing I know of that is actually worthwhile. I wonder whether a "healoradin" could be combined with other abilities strong enough to make it not having to bother with dealing damage...


Use Headbutt!! wrote:
I think my new favorite archetype of all time is the bounty hunter slayer. Every sneak attack doesn't do extra damage and instead gives a dirty trick with a bonus based on # of SA dice. Now, you stack the ability to blind, entangle, ect (or more with dirty trick master) with any fear build (enforcer or cornugon smash) and shatter defenses and EVERY attack is a sneak attack (including AOOs). So lets say an enlarged slayer with the long arm spell and a reach weapon is chilling in a square. That is 3 AOOs/dirty tricks on anyone stupid enough to approach (4 if you threaten with a non-reach weapon like bite or gauntlets) so now they are attacking you blind, entangled, sickened, and shaken.

This sounds promising. There's only two things I don't get: how does this chillin' slayah dude manage to get 4 AoOs trigger off of a single move action that normally only provokes one AoO, and how is that 4th AoO in any way dependent on him having a non-reach weapon?

Use Headbutt!! wrote:
But wait, lets up the fear factor! Toss in soulless gaze, thug rogue, or unchained rogue skill unlock (intimidate) and instead of shaken they are now frightened. Which mean they have to immediately turn around and try and flee INSTEAD OF ATTACKING YOU.

How does this build bypass the common immunity to fear/mind-affecting?

Use Headbutt!! wrote:
Oh did I mention that the archetype can dirty trick on ranged sneak attacks too? Oh yes. Greater invis, obscuring mist + goz mask, or even just blinding them with the first dirty trick and suddenly you are free to effectively remove people from combat withing 30 feat. What, too close? Yeah I agree. Grab the sniper goggles and now you can dirty trick as far as the eye can see and composite bow can reach.

Now we're talking, even though I wouldn't necessarily agree with the "effectively remove people from combat", at least not if the "people" are high level monsters... But ranged boosted dirty tricks really does seem like a pretty powerful thing. I like it!


For the record, Dirty Trick lockdown builds have a ton of leeway and don't require much upkeep to keep an enemy out of battle.

For example, a Kitsune Style Manoeuvre Master Monk can use a standard action to perform two Dirty Tricks, and each of those imposes two Dirty Trick penalties. With Dirty Trick Master, you can cause an enemy to then become pinned and nauseated, which removes their ability to act in every way.


Secret Wizard wrote:

For the record, Dirty Trick lockdown builds have a ton of leeway and don't require much upkeep to keep an enemy out of battle.

For example, a Kitsune Style Manoeuvre Master Monk can use a standard action to perform two Dirty Tricks, and each of those imposes two Dirty Trick penalties. With Dirty Trick Master, you can cause an enemy to then become pinned and nauseated, which removes their ability to act in every way.

So in conclusion, once per round, this build can get a CR=level enemy within melee reach pinned and nauseated for 2.5 + X rounds (barring abilities like freedom of movement or a less problematic immunity to sickened)?

Hmm... With Seize the Opportunity for dirty tricks AoOs, a large race (like the alquarn from DSP's upcoming Akashic Mysteries) and a Skin of Proteus for gargantuan size and a reach of 20 feet, I guess this could be a quite nasty controller even in high levels, though it probably would need some durability boosts.

Kitsune Style is obviously preferable to the bounty hunter's dirty trick when the enemy is within melee reach, but wouldn't it be possible to combine the Maneuver Master with the bounty hunter and gain "enough" advantages from both? If so, that could perhaps be a really versatile "dirty switch-trickster"...


Shrug, you could go Snakebite Striker with Surprise Maneuver.

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