ucobronco's page

Okay. Let's get this out simply. Attack Roll =/= Skill Roll =/= Combat Maneuver Roll

Certain Combat Maneuvers can substitute Attack Rolls. A Grapple is not one of them.
Parts of your body can be Weapon Finessed since they are Unarmed Strikes.
A Grapple is Not an Unarmed Strike.
A Grapple is carried out with your entire body.
Your entire body is not an Unarmed Strike.

Your answer is simply No. People gave you a simple answer. You asked for logic. You now refuse to listen to logic. You also like to assume your logic is correct and use it to find fault in our logic. But your logic is incorrect. This is clear because no one agrees. You have also began to condescend to those you are arguing with as if you are on some kind of logical high ground.

Your answer is No. And this thread should be locked because you're a troll.
I'm done here.

Actually :) I was about to concede to Rynjin's logic.

Rynjin made a great point that grapple was not interchangable with the other mentioned CMs as part of a full attack.

Although I think your line of logic is incorrect. You can have a rules debate on the messageboard that doesn't get resolved and where people don't back off their points. Why can't we just agree to disagree?

:P

And I was only condescending when it was necessary. Such as when people reduce an arguement to the comparison of a grapple attack to a Climb skill check.

ucobronco wrote:

I don't see the distinction you're making because you need (or rather the rules prefer) to execute the attack (grapple) with your hands (light, natural weapons) which fall clearly under finessable weapons.

By your logic, with Weapon Finesse, I should be able to apply my dex in place of strength to a climb check because I climb with my hands. Weapon Finesse involves striking someone. Punching, kicking, elbowing, headbutting, vulgar pelvis thrusting, and ambiguous unarmed melee attack are all variants of Unarmed Strike but Grapple is not a variant of Unarmed Strike because you're not "striking" the opponent with a headlock. You're executing a grapple, but it is not an Unarmed Strike.

Furthermore, Pathfinder is, first and foremost, a system. All parts of the system are interconnected like gears in a mechanical watch. So to bring up the existence of Grapple as an entity separate from Unarmed Strike such as with the case of Weapon Focus et. al. is not an example of begging the question because there would, literally, be absolutely zero benefit in taking WFocus(Grapple) over WFocus(Unarmed Strike). With the system in mind that is an issue that must be avoided. System parity and sensibility are paramount.

:) I thought I already explained that an attack roll to grapple someone was different than a Climb skill check.

Yes, you do grapple with your unarmed strikes (hands). And when you are deprived of them, you take a penalty to the attack.

You just proved that you do not grapple with just your hands. If you only grapple with your hands you would not be able to do it at all if you do not have free hands. Since it has already been established that you can indeed grapple without free hands, this means you are using more than just your hands.

Also the rules for the grappled condition state that you cannot take any action that requires two hands if you are grappled. If you go by your idea that grappling uses hands once you are grappled you cannot break out, because to grapple requires two hands.

This proves that you do not in fact use your hands in a grapple; they merely give you a bonus to your grapple check. Instead of actually granting a bonus they are offsetting a penalty. Mathematically speaking -1 = + (-1), or in this case -4 = + (-4).

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

ucobronco wrote:

Xenrac wrote:

ucobronco wrote:

I don't see the distinction you're making because you need (or rather the rules prefer) to execute the attack (grapple) with your hands (light, natural weapons) which fall clearly under finessable weapons.

Grapple wrote:

Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.

You don't need your hands to do a grapple. You can grapple without them. Because you're using more than your hands to grapple.

Grapple Transformers

More than meets the hand.

:)

That's true, but any part of your body that you can execute an attack with is considered a light, natural weapon with Improvide Unarmed Strike.

You say "any part" But you take the same penalty if you only have one hand free that you do if neither of your hands are free. It's because you aren't using "any part" of your body, you are using your whole body.

I agree. You have an excellent point that you would get the same bonus from Weapon Finesse to your whole body.

:)

ucobronco wrote:

I don't see the distinction you're making because you need (or rather the rules prefer) to execute the attack (grapple) with your hands (light, natural weapons) which fall clearly under finessable weapons.

Grapple wrote:

Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.

You don't need your hands to do a grapple. You can grapple without them. Because you're using more than your hands to grapple.

Grapple Transformers

:)

That's true, but any part of your body that you can execute an attack with is considered a light, natural weapon with Improved Unarmed Strike.

ucobronco wrote:

Yes, you do grapple with your unarmed strikes (hands). And when you are deprived of them, you take a penalty to the attack.

"Hands" =/= "Unarmed Strikes"

Taking a penalty because you can't use your hands for something that requires your hands is not free reign to say anything involving your hands is an Unarmed Strike.

Picking up an item is not "Unarmed Striking" it any more than Grappling someone is using your Unarmed Strikes to do so.

I'm not using it as free reign. I'm using it to adjusting my attack roll.

:)

I don't see the distinction you're making because you need (or rather the rules prefer) to execute the attack (grapple) with your hands (light, natural weapons) which fall clearly under finessable weapons.

ucobronco wrote:

A grapple can be used in place of a melee attack. You can attempt to start a grapple as many times as you have attacks in a round.

"As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe"

Nope.

You’re right. I thought a grapple attack could be used multiple times and in place of an attack of opportunity. But it looks to be a standard action.

ucobronco wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Unarmed strikes are a finessible weapon. "your body" is not a weapon.

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks). (Pg. 182 Core)

I disagree.

Nothing in that quote disagrees with his point.

You do not Grapple with your unarmed strikes.

The fact that you can pelvic thrust an enemy into submission does not mean you can pelvic thrust them into a Grapple.

Yes, you do grapple with your unarmed strikes (hands). And when you are deprived of them, you take a penalty to the attack.

I haven't read the whole thread, but this question is answered in the FAQ.

There's also additional information on the subject HERE.

Definitive answer: you can only use Weapon Finesse on weapon-based maneuvers, which is limited to disarm, sunder and trip, unless you have a special exception. To use DEX for grapple, you need Agile Manuevers or a way to deliver grapples through a weapon.

Unarmed Strike makes your natural attacks a weapon.

Daethor wrote:

ucobronco wrote:

I'm still waiting to be persuaded by logic. I see lots of no's, but no explanation as to why a grapple maneuver which is executed with your hands could not take advantage of weapon finesse as it would be consider a light, natural attack and thus allow the substitution of the Dexterity modifier.

In the post I cite that discusses using weapon focus (unarmed strike) to modify the grapple CM Sean K Reynolds states that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers (the example asked mentions a monk who uses a feat that is for unarmed strike) to modify his grapple CM bonus.

The point I'm making is that a grapple attack is executed with your hands (i.e. a light, natural attack) and as such would be subject to weapon finesse.

I think Sean's post made it pretty clear. Only trip, sunder, and disarm attempts can use weapon bonuses *unless the GM says circumstances dictate otherwise.* So ask your GM, or if you are the GM, make a ruling. There is no hard and fast rule on this.

Also, it's unrealistic expect a post to be that long and detailed and not get bogged down in minutiae. You said you wanted a simple yes or no (which some people gave), but when people said "No", you demanded reasons after others already gave numerous reasons which contradicts your demand for a simple answer.

That's because what he actually wanted was a "Yes" answer.

I think it is clear I am arguing on the "Yes" side :)

I think it's pretty straight-forward that you can't apply Weapon Finesse to a Grapple check for the following reasons:

1) Disarm, Trip, and Sunder can be performed with any weapon in place of any melee attack. Trip can be performed, even with a weapon that doesn't have the 'trip' property and, likewise, Disarm can be done without a 'disarm' weapon. These properties only give a bonus on the associated maneuver.

2) Grapple is not performed in place of a melee attack. Even with Grab (Ex) or a weapon with the 'grapple' special, the grapple check is made after the attack lands as a separate roll. Finesse might help you land the initial attack if it's done with a finessable weapon, but it shouldn't help with the actual Grapple check because you're trying to twist and overpower your opponent after already connecting. For this, you need Agile Maneuvers.

3) "Hands" is no more of a type of weapon than "Feet". Weapon Finesse may apply to Unarmed Strikes, but Unarmed Strikes don't inherently apply to grapples any more than they apply to Drag, Push, Steal, Reposition, or Dirty Trick maneuvers, unless you have the Quick <maneuver> feat to allow you to make one of those maneuvers in place of a melee attack (as opposed to as a swift action). There is no Quick Grapple feat.

4) Grapple, by default, works off of Strength just like any other maneuver. If you're trying to disarm someone, by default, you're using your strength as leverage to physically knock their weapon from their hand. If you're trying to trip someone, you're using your weapon to lever them off balance. If you're using a finesseable weapon to trip or disarm, it involves more flourish and "soft-levering". But that won't work with a grapple. Tai-chi or other "soft style" martial arts may be able to trip a person with graceful, flowing moves, but I can't see them grappling someone by the same method. Grappling is a fight of dominance between you and another person and whether you do it the traditional way of headlocks and...

A grapple can be used in place of a melee attack. You can attempt to start a grapple as many times as you have attacks in a round. Once the grapple is started you conduct it with your body (a light, natural weapon) which is finessible.

An attack roll by default does works off of Strength. With Weapon Finesse it would work off of Dexterity.

The only way you can weapon finesse a grapple check without Agile Maneuvers is if you are:

(a) using the Grab ability (this method requires a natural weapon like a bite);
(b) using the special grapple granted by a weapon with the "grapple" property.

The former is limited primarily to monsters and certain spellcasters; the latter only works on a crit, so it's difficult to build around.

I could see that logic applying if you needed the grab property to execute the grapple.

But I am proposing that since the grapple is initiated with your own natural attacks that it would be finessible.

Hmm, I'm seeing a few errors in the discussion. Correction time.

First off, Combat Maneuver Rolls are a type of Attack Roll. However, "hands" is not a type of weapon. Unarmed Strike is a type of weapon, but "hand" is not. Technically, your whole body is your Unarmed Strike because you need not define what you're hitting with; it could be a punch, an elbow, a kick, a headbutt, or a vulgar pelvis thrust. Are you "hitting" someone with a grapple? Not in the strictest sense; well, maybe if you watch pro wrestling. But for real fighting, a grapple doesn't really involve "striking" so much as "grasping". Moreover, if Weapon Finesse applied to Grappling because it "uses your body" as a weapon (remember, Unarmed Strike = Your Body), then that also means that Drag, Push, and Reposition (which use "hands") as well as Bull Rush also qualify for it. What is the need for Agile Maneuvers, then, if everything it does can already be replicated by Weapon Finesse? Furthermore, what point is there in taking Weapon Focus (Grapple) if Weapon Focus (Unarmed) would already apply to a grapple?

Furthermore, the difference between a Grapple and a Disarm is hardly arbitrary. They may be similar, but disarming someone involves a lot more striking than grabbing hold of them. You may grab hold of the weapon afterwards (if you have a free hand), but if you're using a two-handed weapon to disarm someone, you're likely hitting them either in the hand or at a leverage point on the weapon. And, again, Disarm can replace a melee attack while Grapple cannot. While there are "quick" feats that allow you to perform various other maneuvers in place of a melee attack (ie. Quick Dirty Trick, Quick Steal, etc), there is no Quick Grapple; the best you can get is Rapid Grapple which makes it a Move action.

You're using a logical error called begging the question. Why would have the designers created these feats I mention if not for this?

It doesn't address the issue. The existance of these other feats does not prove my assertion is wrong.

Answer : No, except when the weapon being used has the Grapple quality and is a light weapon usable under the Weapon Finesse rules

Is Unarmed Strike a grappling weapon?
While you are generally using your hands to make the grapple, you are not using Unarmed Strike to effect the grapple and it is Improved Unarmed Strike which makes your hands a weapon. You do not gain a bonus to Climb or Craft just because you have Weapon Finesse and you use your hands for these purposes and as such you don't gain a Weapon Finesse bonus for Grapple.

Agile Maneuvers does give the same ability to use Dexterity for maneuvers and without the light weapon caveats. Use this if you want a Dex based grappler, but don't expect AoMF or weapon focus to apply.

Climb, craft, and this thread discussion on the finessibility of grapple have nothing to do with each other. It is a logical error commonly referred to as a faulty comparison.

Unarmed strikes are a finessible weapon. "your body" is not a weapon.

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks). (Pg. 182 Core)

I disagree.

Gauss wrote:

DakrKnight27, you see that Weapon Finesse does not apply based on what you quoted. However, others see that it does apply since it calls out that if your weapon applies to the Combat Maneuver any modifiers which apply to your weapon applies.

Thus, it is perfect for a FAQ. Yes, they intended Weapon Finesse to apply. It changes the modifier you are using for the weapon and thus a weapon-related Combat Maneuver. So, by the rules you quoted, it applies.

- Gauss

So then Weapon Finesse is a bonus to your attack roll like Weapon Focus and Bless and Haste are bonuses to your attack roll and your CMB should be calculated as BAB + STR + DEX + Size Modifier? The RAW say that your CMB is = to BAB + STR + Size Modifier. It doesn't make any mention of letting your DEX be used in place of your STR for any reason. Weapon Finesse doesn't say that you can use your DEX in place of STR for your CMB. The ONLY feat/rule in the game that says you CAN substitute your DEX for your STR when calculating your CMB is Agile Maneuvers.

Yes, I saw that calculation in the combat section. However, it also states that when you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.

ucobronco wrote:

The usefulness or existence of Agile Maneuvers is irrelevant to the question.

I'm not trying to get the answer I want, I just would like you to make a more sophisticated argument other than saying I'm wrong :)

It was made. You ignored it. Repeatedly. Respond to it.

Don't expect a standard you yourself aren't living up to. Your idea that the dev team was jedi mind tricked is frankly, dross. You haven't responded to any of the counter arguments I've made. To reduce my argument to "saying you're wrong" is disingenuous enough to have me twitching for the ignore button.

Quote:

And where are you citing the example that the Dev team has said no? I'd like to take a look at that.

You've been shown it , repeatedly. Disarm sunder and trip are the only combat maneuvers that actually use a weapon. There is no weapon normally associated with a grapple, bullrush, or overrun maneuver.

I thought I did address it. All you really have to do is show that in some circumstances Agile Maneuvers would provide a CM bonus that Weapon Finesse wouldn’t (i.e. a CM executed with a polearm [a non-finesseable weapon]).

The post that I think you’re referring to states that if a weapon is involved to make the combat maneuver it may grant a bonus to execute the attack and they cite that disarm, trip, and sunder as the most common occurrences of that. There’s another post from a developer that I cite in my OP that shows the feat Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) and amulet of the mighty fist may modify a CM grapple check. This isn’t a jedi mind trick I’m citing a post from a developer.

I’m arguing that the weapon in this case is your body that is being used to execute the CM and should fall under the category of natural, light, finesseable weapons.

Honestly, using that logic, I can’t imagine-as long as you’re using your body to initiate the grapple-when it wouldn’t apply.

The usefulness or existence of Agile Maneuvers is irrelevant to the question.

I'm not trying to get the answer I want, I just would like you to make a more sophisticated argument other than saying I'm wrong :)

And where are you citing the example that the Dev team has said no? I'd like to take a look at that.

ucobronco, I question your intentions here. You said:

"I want a simple straight forward YES or NO."

You were given that. In this *and* in the (admittedly accidental) duplicate post.

So you changed the goalposts:

"I'm still waiting to be persuaded by logic. I see lots of no's, but no explanation as to why a grapple maneuver which is executed with your hands could not take advantage of weapon finesse as it would be consider a light, natural attack and thus allow the substitution of the Dexterity modifier."

It appears you want to "get bogged down in minutia" which you initially asserted was what you did not want.

At any rate, if you want to argue from "logic", then obviously you know that the person making the positive claim bears the burden of proof, not the other way around.

----

I agree with all of the noes, for all of the reasons they have already listed. The simple straight forward answer as requested in the OP is "NO".

Argumentum ad hominem.

I really do have an interest in finding an answer and questioning my intentions doesn't answer the question. And while I do have a horse in this race that doesn't mean I can't be convinced I'm wrong. I've just tried to provide a logical argument citing rules and previous posts of designers to support by assertion. Which I think my arguement does bear some merit, otherwise why would we post about it :)

ucobronco wrote:

I'm still waiting to be persuaded by logic. I see lots of no's, but no explanation as to why a grapple maneuver which is executed with your hands could not take advantage of weapon finesse as it would be consider a light, natural attack and thus allow the substitution of the Dexterity modifier.

In the post I cite that discusses using weapon focus (unarmed strike) to modify the grapple CM Sean K Reynolds states that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers (the example asked mentions a monk who uses a feat that is for unarmed strike) to modify his grapple CM bonus.

The point I'm making is that a grapple attack is executed with your hands (i.e. a light, natural attack) and as such would be subject to weapon finesse.

I think Sean's post made it pretty clear. Only trip, sunder, and disarm attempts can use weapon bonuses *unless the GM says circumstances dictate otherwise.* So ask your GM, or if you are the GM, make a ruling. There is no hard and fast rule on this.

Also, it's unrealistic expect a post to be that long and detailed and not get bogged down in minutiae. You said you wanted a simple yes or no (which some people gave), but when people said "No", you demanded reasons after others already gave numerous reasons which contradicts your demand for a simple answer.

Well I want a simple yes or no, but I would like it grounded in logic so that could complicate my question :)

Am I the only one that checks the FAQs first?

Quote:

Weapon Finesse: If I have this feat, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus?

It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).

The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers.

—Sean K Reynolds, 10/03/11

Quote:

Trip Weapons: If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?

No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don't have to use a weapon with the trip special feature--you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don't have the trip special feature.
Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.

On a related note, you don't have to use a weapon with the disarm special feature (a.k.a. a "disarm weapon") when making a disarm combat maneuver--you can use any weapon.

Note: This is a revision of this FAQ entry based on a Paizo blog about combat maneuvers with weapons. The previous version of this FAQ stated that using a trip weapon was the only way you could apply weapon enhancement bonuses, Weapon Focus bonuses, and other such bonuses to the trip combat

...

I like this answer. Its researched :)

I need to go back and read these posts on the FACs section. When I originally reviewed a related post (which I posted at the top) the way Sean explained his example left open the possibility of a situation where weapon focus and amulet of mighty fists could actaully adjust the CM of a grapple attack.

If I'm reading Agile Maneuvers this applies to any CMB maneuver, for example I could use a pole arm to trip you and use my dex. Weapon finesse would allow me to do this but only with the weapons specifically mentioned in the Weapon Finesse feat. My arguement is since your using your hands (although really any part of your body is considered a light, natural attack under the rules) you could use the feat to switch out to your dex modifier.

I'm still waiting to be persuaded by logic. I see lots of no's, but no explanation as to why a grapple maneuver which is executed with your hands could not take advantage of weapon finesse as it would be consider a light, natural attack and thus allow the substitution of the Dexterity modifier.

In the post I cite that discusses using weapon focus (unarmed strike) to modify the grapple CM Sean K Reynolds states that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers (the example asked mentions a monk who uses a feat that is for unarmed strike) to modify his grapple CM bonus.

The point I'm making is that a grapple attack is executed with your hands (i.e. a light, natural attack) and as such would be subject to weapon finesse.

Weapon finesse does not allow you to use your dexterity bonus in a grapple. When making a combat maneuver you are using your CMB. The rules clearly state that your CMB is Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier . Weapon finesse does not affect your CMB so does work with grapple or any other combat maneuvers.

Yes, I saw that calculation in the combat section. However, it also states that when you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

Since you use your hands to execute a grapple attack-and hands are considered light, natural weapons–you have the option of using your dexterity modifier per the Weapon Finesse feat on the grapple combat maneuver. I say this because the hands are intrinsically part of the grapple attack.

I didn't realize there was a specific place to post Rules Questions. I've moved it over there.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q6rk?Can-you-Weapon-Finesse-a-Grapple-Attack#1

I was illustrating my point that the designer stated that Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) could modify CMB.

Your essentially saying that since it wasn't explicitly mentioned it must be false. This sounds like an argument from ignorance.

What rules, logic, and/or precedents can you cite to show that I’m wrong?

Ok, I have a single question on grapple. I’ve seen multiple posts on this and they get bogged down in minutia. I want a simple straight forward YES or NO.

Can you apply your dexterity modifier with weapon finesse to your CMB in place of your strength modifier when making a grapple attack?

I believe that you should be able to because weapon finesse states that natural attacks are considered light weapons and that you deliver the grapple attack with your hand.

Under the combat section it states that when you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

Further under the grapple entry it states that humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. This illustrates my argument that the grapple attacks is delivered with your hand.

I’ve heard the argument that Agile Maneuvers grants you this bonus so Weapon Finesse shouldn't. That’s a false line of logic otherwise known as a logical fallacy (i.e. if A is true then B is must be false). Just because one may grant the bonus it doesn’t mean the other couldn’t or shouldn’t grant the identical kind of bonus. I don’t care if it makes Agile Maneuvers worthless; I care about the logic of the rules.

Paizo Employee Sean K Reynolds Designer, posted that disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.

However, when asked if a monk’s Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 would affect the Combat Maneuver for Grapple?
Sean responded saying “I'd file that under "the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers."

This leaves open the door that unarmed attack modifiers may, at least in theory, modify your grapple CMB.

What do you think?

Ok, I have a single question on grapple. I’ve seen multiple posts on this and they get bogged down in minutia. I want a simple straight forward YES or NO.

Can you apply your dexterity modifier with weapon finesse to your CMB in place of your strength modifier when making a grapple attack?

I believe that you should be able to because weapon finesse states that natural attacks are considered light weapons and that you deliver the grapple attack with your hand.

Under the combat section it states that when you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

Further under the grapple entry it states that humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. This illustrates my argument that the grapple attacks is delivered with your hand.

I’ve heard the argument that Agile Maneuvers grants you this bonus so Weapon Finesse shouldn't. That’s a false line of logic otherwise known as a logical fallacy (i.e. if A is true then B is must be false). Just because one may grant the bonus it doesn’t mean the other couldn’t or shouldn’t grant the identical kind of bonus. I don’t care if it makes Agile Maneuvers worthless; I care about the logic of the rules.

Paizo Employee Sean K Reynolds Designer, posted that disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.

However, when asked if a monk’s Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 would affect the Combat Maneuver for Grapple?
Sean responded saying “I'd file that under "the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers."

This leaves open the door that unarmed attack modifiers may, at least in theory, modify your grapple CMB.

What do you think?