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It says good things about the state of the game when the number one issue is a minor language error that will not even come up at the majority of tables with how deeply you need to read into the rules to even notice it.


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The complaints about universality are curious.

I have never heard it suggested that one should not make a Vudran swashbuckler or a Gokan paladin even though those words are both steeped in European literary traditions. One person expressed a sentiment about Druids but most people appear fine with their ability to be translated as well.

Yet there always seems to be concern over the alleged universality of words like monk and ninja, despite somewhat of a consensus on what those terms represent.

This dichotomy gives the impression that the word universal is coded language meant to represent Europe and Whiteness, or perhaps the Anglosphere more specifically. Such that saying a term is not universal enough is to say that it is insufficiently white in its current form.

Given the consistency in which terms within the European tradition are used freely while terms outside it are subject to enhanced scrutiny, I do not see any other way to parse that framing even if that may not be the intent of individual writers.


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That is still largely merely couching your dislike of the system in objective sounding language.

Shadowrun is not the gold standard you seem to think it is either.


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I confess, sometimes when I read a RD post where he describes how classes perform in 20+ round combats that take place in thousand foot long hallways I am left wondering how contrived these scenarios might be.


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Paizo's handling of a product, its distribution, and potentially anticonsumer business practices involved therein seems exceptionally relevant to a product discussion thread.

I have found the information brought to light by this conversation to be very enlightening.

If there is something else about the product you wish to discuss, you could try simply doing that.


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Imagine crying censorship and bad faith because someone asked you not to post spoilers of a new Adventure Path.

Very brave.


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Cori Marie wrote:
Would have been nice to use spoiler tags for the AP that's still coming out and lots of people are playing.

Yes. Not liking an AP is fine. Dropping an unspoilered line by line overview of an adventure so new it is not even fully released yet feels a bit mean spirited.


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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
Oh yeah, the question of whether an AoO happens seems like it was fairly well settled already (summary for those who've missed the last half dozen posts, if they Sneaked successfully and became Undetected throughout movement, no AoO.

Is it strange to anyone else to read a thread with a back and forth argument where nobody really agrees on anything only for someone to show up and unilaterally declare the issue has been settled, usually by asserting that they were Right All Along?

It happens a lot here.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:
I'd rather they focus on getting Kingmaker done for PF2 than errata for archetypes that probably barely get used.

Kingmaker's been done for a while. Just like the APG errata, if information is to be believed. The AP backmatter that's slated for errata has already been indicated in various forum posts too.

Paizo just seems to have some issues with followthrough.


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Kuzcoburra wrote:
But, statistically, we can confidently conclude that the Thaumaturge will consistently perform as one of the highest damage dealing classes in the game once it starts swinging. Other classes might get lucky rolls with max results on bonus damage dice, but the Thaumaturge at its worst is going to be hitting as hard as a Giant Instinct Barbarian.

Well, no. At worst the Thaumaturge is going to be getting nothing because they critically failed Find Flaws or because the weakness is one they could have simply exploited naturally and because empowerment is less of a proper damage bonus and more an acknowledgement of the quasi-two-handed nature of the class' core mechanics.

More commonly, 2-12 additional damage which, contrary to your assertion, puts them more in line with an Animal or Fury barbarian than Giant except the Thaumaturge's extra damage cannot crit and is mutually exclusive with triggering weaknesses normally. So strictly worse than either of those combat mechanics.

And that is not even touching upon the action economy, which you mentioned in your opening statement but do not appear to have accounted for in your math.

I am not sure any conclusion can really be drawn when so many of the underlying mechanics of the game are simply ignored here.


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Alfa/Polaris wrote:
No, it does not tell us anything, as the two weapons have very little to do with one another besides being in the same general category.

They are both 1d8 0 reload (after correcting the daikyu's typo) long range bow type weapons with no other traits enhancing them. Simply factual to point out that that is a significant number of similarities. Pretending otherwise serves no one.

Then the crossbow picks up additional range at the cost of requiring a magazine to be loaded.

A common refrain in this thread has been that Paizo must have forgotten to include traits for the Daikyu or otherwise erred when printing it because it is obviously undertuned. Paizo, after seeing those concerns, turning around and printing another weapon in the same category with the same damage and same lack of enhancements and even the same weapon group sends a fairly clear message that they are happy with the place those weapons are in. Otherwise the repeating crossbow would not exist as it does.

What it does not tell us is why, since the repeating crossbow could easily just have been a martial weapon without really rocking the boat, but it does not change what Paizo decided to print.


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The eidolon does not get its own actions. The two of you share actions, the eidolon entry says that outright.

The only line that prescribes any priority to the actions is the rule about confusion and control effects. Otherwise there is no guidance beyond that you 'share' them.

The only other place action sharing is discussed is the tandem trait, which mentions specifically that you cannot use tandem actions if you are unable to act. Weirdly redundant under their interpretation but probably not any more meaningful if they have already decided how to rule it.

Quote:
Where does it actually state (besides the exception in the meld into eidolon feat) an eidolon can be going around doing things while their summoner cannot act (asleep, petrified, etc)?

You already quoted it. The book could not be any clearer in that regard.

If the rest of the group wants to disregard that to make the summoner weaker even after you have already pointed it out, all you can really do is respect their decision.


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Themetricsystem wrote:
Please unsticky, close, and lock this thread already, this is like having a "Feedback Box" to leave notes for a business that leads directly into a shredder.

That is probably the point.


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Your biggest clue should be that letting a Summoner do that would be cool and fun. This is Pathfinder 2.


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The-Magic-Sword is correct. Paizo is fairly ambivalent about their digital customer base. If more shipping delays occur, expect your PDF to get pushed back just as far or even farther.


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The Tage wrote:
They feel like they are an artificial tax that has been imposed.

That is their design intention. During the playtest a number of options were considered and a preponderance of players, according to Paizo, deeply enjoyed the fantasy trope of a character who is helpless without magical equipment. Paizo crafted their magic item rules specifically to cater to this fantasy.


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Is your GM using cover rules properly? Anecdotally many GMs, even in PFS, forget or ignore lesser cover entirely in PF2.

Whether or not those cover rules are being used properly is a significant contributor to the question of whether or not archers are good. The near permanent -1s from lesser cover and the common -2s from standard an archer will have to deal with has a very meaningful impact on their damage output or deprives them of their advantage as a turret if they want to mitigate it.


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Be glad you never played PF1 or 3.5 then.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
RAW is pretty obvious here.

I love it when people hop into a thread full of posts arguing over vague RAW minutiae and unilaterally declare this.


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Why though? In RPG culture the term longsword is well understood within its current niche. Renaming it to satisfy HEMA enthusiasts does not really serve them at all.

Even saying it benefits historical accuracy is a reach, because modern sword classifications are just that: modern conventions for the convenience of historians and hobbyists.


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Energy mutagen alchemist with a longspear does about half of a giant barb's damage and maybe 60% of a dragon barbarian's or rogue's.

Giving them master in weapons makes those numbers slightly more competitive but still noticeably behind.

Truly it would be the end of the world.


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You don't need thousands of hours of experience to know that there are some things casters just suck at in PF2.

What's less apparent to people in this thread is that those gaps are cornerstones of Pathfinder 2's design philosophy. There are serious gaps in what spellcasters can do and those gaps tend to conveniently align with what martials are good at.

This is how PF2 addresses martial-caster disparity: by making martials indispensable even though they still kind of suck.

Notice that PF2 doesn't have 6-th level casters anymore despite how popular they were in PF1 (weaker than full casters, but more likely to encroach on martial design space). Notice the things that PF2 casters are the most obviously worse at compared to PF1: Layering defenses, dealing with bosses, summoning meatshields of their own, etc. None of this is on accident.

PF2 creates a synergy where spellcasters are good at manipulating battlefield conditions, AoE damage and providing lateral solutions to problems.

Martials meanwhile are good at hitting things with sticks.

That's the balance. That's why blasting bosses or building pseudo-martials out of warpriests or wizards with weapon dedications or even mutagen alchemists feels bad. Because you aren't supposed to do that.


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The cultural shift from PF1, where rolling our collective eyes at odd rules and dodgy balance was standard, to PF2 where a large segment of the community seems to assume a degree of infallibility on the behalf of Paizo is fascinating.


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Midnightoker wrote:
Does that make the Class weak? Not really. It's actually fine, it has some issues as far as being Streak-y when it comes to crits and some logistics issues at the moment, but it is not a "weak" Class.

The Playtest gunslinger is so problematic that you are often better off taking a proficiency dedication and never using a gun at all.

If that's really okay to you it informs a lot about your opinions regarding the Witch.


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Cool Tiefling wrote:
He chooses to disregard my example of rules writing that goes against what he believes

Nothing you've posted contradicts the rules cited at the top of the thread. Weapon Familiarity verbosely listing both weapons does nothing to invalidate the general rule in the same way that Domain Initiate describing focus pool mechanics doesn't invalidate the general rules for focus pools.

To establish the distinction you want to make you need something that explicitly does so. Or you can just keep patting yourself on the back, since that seems to be the only real purpose of this thread.


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Ravingdork wrote:
that there were so many forces in the world trying to stygmatize and stamp out non-standard means of earning an income, forcing more and more people into the regular 9-5 paradigm.

Could be people just have legitimate issues with the service, rather than you being some sort of moral crusader leading a modern civil rights movement in the sphere of D&D.

I do not see anything wrong with a GM wanting to monetize their services if they can find the customer base for it, but this incessant self aggrandizement is just gratuitous.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:
you have a very good chance of killing an equal or lower level character with 1 action.

Define very good.

Using the numbers you provide we have a ~25% success rate, so if you have four enemies you can kill one of them at the cost of 10 actions and a spell slot, on a character who has maximized their investment in charisma and intimidation.


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Cordell Kintner wrote:
What I really didn't like about this discussion was that no one used any stats to try to argue against me.

This is an odd criticism to level when you were the one making a math-based argument, especially since you're admitting in this same post you never actually bothered to check the math at the time.

It's deeply irresponsible to argue a rules element is mathematically overpowered without even bothering to run the numbers to see if your claim is true. It's disingenuous and hypocritical to then deflect that responsibility onto other people for not correcting your mistake for you.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:
If trip unsuccessful, you did nothing.

You keep emphasizing this as if it's unique to combat maneuvers, but it isn't. Strange.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
and it's by no means a strawman.

Just to be clear, this isn't an attempt at glibness.

The previous exchange fits the literal definition of a straw man. RD stated a position and you intentionally misrepresented that position for the sake of appearing to discredit it. I am unsure if you're being dismissive or willfully ignorant, but it deserves emphasis, that is quite literally what a straw man is.

You also more or less called them a liar and accused them of arguing in bad faith, baselessly as far as I can tell.

Awfully intense reaction for a quibble over a minor footnote in the rules of a tabletop RPG.


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Themetricsystem wrote:
we aren't here to discuss how people feel about the Rules, we are here to discuss what they actually say and mean.

Pretty sure we're here just to pat ourselves on the back about how smart we think we are, while ridiculing people who come to different conclusions about badly written rules text as incompetent morons.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Craft checks are for making things. You aren't making things, so no check is required by that logic.

Occasionally we mock people with strawman arguments, too.

Discussing what the rules mean is pretty far down the list.


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Clickbait video, clickbait thread.


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No matter how you feel about them.

It's interesting how wide of a gulf there is between Paizo's perception of the class and this vocal section of the forums' perspective.

From the latter we see a consistent stream of threads critical of the Wizard as weak and/or boring and from the former we see a stream of nerfs that gets longer with each subsequent errata.

No judgement either way here, just highlighting how radically different the perspectives are.


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It's interesting how desperately certain people want familiars to suck in PF2 that they'll go to such lengths to try to litigate any capabilities they have away, everything else be damned.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
This is such a disingenuous argument because it assumes a GM is creating something with a specific purpose of undermining PC choices

It can't be disingenuous when that was precisely your premise: a bunch of NPCs with foil senses showing up to shut down the Barbarian with scent.


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Cyouni wrote:
Similarly, just because very vocal people like to scream about how casters are nonfunctional doesn't make them so.

Those who insisted PF1 was perfectly balanced and martial-caster issues didn't exist liked to ridicule people pointing out balance issues too.

Definitely a lot of parallels to draw here.


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The Rot Grub wrote:
A bard isn't a "jack of all trades" like they were in PF1

Someone should tell whoever wrote the CRB that. "Jack of all trades" is literally in the class' opening description.


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Martialmasters wrote:


I failed to intimidate and tumble and my entire turn has been wasted and I have to do the same thing next round and hope it works that time.

I don't see how this is demonstrably different than failing an attack roll as any other martial or having a spell fail as a caster.


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Themetricsystem wrote:
No to both of your queries, at least as long as they're each "in their element" in that they're floating in water of flying/hovering in the air.

Given that ground is also the word used to describe how land speeds function, do you also rule that people on a ship or aircraft can't walk around either?

It's hard to take this interpretation seriously, as it reads more like an attempt to stick it to the player than anything else.


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Deriven's goal here is to make the mechanic look as cumbersome as possible as a way of convincing people to join them in petitioning for the mechanic's removal.

Not only are the questions rhetorical, but even attempting to answer them is potentially undermining their crusade, which probably explains the passive aggression and naked hostility being thrown your way.

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