Summoner and Eidolen actions questions

[JourneyRei]

Hi! My group and I were discussing summoner and eidolon mechanics, not disrupting any game being played, and seem to have hit a couple snags. Call it confirmation bias but no matter what I say, they seem convinced that the book claims the only thing in the summoner + eidolon union that actually gets actions is the summoner. Which may then be used by either the summoner or eidolon.

They seem to strongly believe that if the summoner ever has a condition rendering it unable to act, (the meld into eidolon feat excluded, as a specific exception) that means the summoner does not regain actions nor reactions at the start of their turn therefore the eidolon cannot use the summoner's actions. I've not been able to find anywhere a rule stating that an eidolon gets it's own actions or anything to properly back up my arguement, because they want to treat every instance of "you" and "your" as being written for the summoner only. They disregard the first sentence of the paragraph discussing what to do when one of the pair is restricted and the other is not, saying the example given says if only the eidolon is petrified because "it isn't the source of the union's actions anyway, the summoner is".

They also argue that petrified effectively kills the character as they are referred to as haven been alive, which a statue is not, and a dead character has no life force to maintain any link to a manifested eidolon so it should unmanifest. I said their mind and body are stated to be in stasis, and they are therefore not dead, and they turned it back around and said all the more reason to prove why, if one of the union being slowed or stunned removes actions from the other, that one of them being petrified should make it so both of them become petrified or whoever isn't permanently cannot regain actions.

Where does it actually state (besides the exception in the meld into eidolon feat) an eidolon can be going around doing things while their summoner cannot act (asleep, petrified, etc)? Where does it state that an eidolon gets it's own actions and may spend them as it wants, if the summoner isn't able to regain actions?

Sorry to ask in circles like this but it's frustrating and I'm flabbergasted.

[swoosh]

The eidolon does not get its own actions. The two of you share actions, the eidolon entry says that outright.

The only line that prescribes any priority to the actions is the rule about confusion and control effects. Otherwise there is no guidance beyond that you 'share' them.

The only other place action sharing is discussed is the tandem trait, which mentions specifically that you cannot use tandem actions if you are unable to act. Weirdly redundant under their interpretation but probably not any more meaningful if they have already decided how to rule it.

Quote:

Where does it actually state (besides the exception in the meld into eidolon feat) an eidolon can be going around doing things while their summoner cannot act (asleep, petrified, etc)?

You already quoted it. The book could not be any clearer in that regard.

If the rest of the group wants to disregard that to make the summoner weaker even after you have already pointed it out, all you can really do is respect their decision.

[shroudb]

Quote:

Each round, you can use any of your actions (including reactions and free actions) for yourself or your eidolon.

pretty clear since "you" and "yourself" are in the same sentence that the "you" is the summoner (since the eidolon is explicitly called as such and seperated in the very same sentence).

Quote:

If you or your eidolon becomes slowed, stunned, quickened, or otherwise affected by something that changes the actions you gain at the start of each turn, it affects your shared actions. However, if you are both subject to such an effect, apply only the more severe one. For instance, if you or your eidolon were slowed 1, you would start your turn with one fewer action, but if you were both slowed 1, you would still lose only one action, rather than adding the two slowed effects together. However, if you were slowed 1 and your eidolon slowed 2, you'd have two fewer actions, because that's the more severe effect. If only one of you becomes restricted in how you can spend your actions, that restriction doesn't automatically extend to the other; for example, if your eidolon became immobilized or petrified, it wouldn't be able to move, but you could still use your actions to move. The GM resolves any situation that's unclear.

You, as the player, control both your summoner and your eidolon, and the two are generally considered to cooperate unless you decide for them not to. While a summoner's link with an eidolon is a partnership, ultimately the eidolon is linked to you, not the other way around. If there's ever a conflict of who should act, you win out over your eidolon. This means that if the eidolon comes under an effect that would take its actions out of your control, such as the confused or controlled condition, you can use all of your shared actions so your eidolon doesn't have any actions remaining to cause trouble (as long as you are able to act). However, if you came under such an effect, you would simply use all of your shared actions, preventing your eidolon from acting.

petrify:

Quote:

You have been turned to stone. You can’t act, nor can you sense anything. You become an object with a Bulk double your normal Bulk (typically 12 for a petrified Medium creature or 6 for a petrified Small creature), AC 9, Hardness 8, and the same current Hit Points you had when alive. You don’t have a Broken Threshold. When you’re turned back into flesh, you have the same number of Hit Points you had as a statue. If the statue is destroyed, you immediately die. While petrified, your mind and body are in stasis, so you don’t age or notice the passing of time.

Prone

basically:

if an effect limits the actions of EITHER one of you, you use the least amount of actions available out of the two conditions.

if an effect simply restricts *how* you spend your actions, that isn't shared.

if an effect takes away control of the actions from your Eidolon, you can use all the actions as the Summner instead.

if an effect takes away control of the actions from the Summoner, the Eidolon doesn't get to act.

So, for your questions:

1)the eidolon doesn't get actions of its own. You as the summoner get them and share them, and you even have priority over them.

2)if an effect causes the summoner not to regain any actions in the start of the turn, that means that the summoner+eidolon duo has 0 actions (since you use the WORST out of any action altering condition that affect either the summoner or the eidolon).

3)if an effect makes the summoner unable to act (but not taking away its actions, like sleep or petrify), then the eidolon doesn't get to act.

4)if an effect causes the eidolon to be unable to act (but not taking away its actions, like sleep or petrify) then the summoner has his full actions.

5)the petrify "killing the summoner" issue is not an issue for various reasons as outlined above:
a)there's even a direct example in the rules that reads "if an eidolon is petrified you can use your action to move and act normally" meaning that they have no ground for making such an effect "killing you".
b)You share HP and HP affecting effects that target both you take the worst of, and effects that affect actions affect both, but nothing links any other sort of effects with each other. If the eidolon (as an example) becomes enfeebled, that doesnt mean that the summoner becomes as well, and etc.
c)petrify doesnt have the death effect, so it doesnt kill you to begin with. it even clearly says that you "die" when the statue is broken, not before.

[JourneyRei]

Well, thanks for your clear answers everyone!

Pondering over what you said, while I wouldn't exactly say I was mistaken (because I was reading the rules plainly written in summoner and mentally filling in any gaps by extrapolating from that) I needed to also remember the rule that says being unable to act means you get no actions back. Getting no actions back means your duo does nothing. They still think it's silly that the summoner can be hindered by up to slow 3 as the eidolon battles against slow, then when the effect expires, is fine while their eidolon is a statue, but whatever. Being grabbed or in a net is very different from being a statue in stasis... But the book specifically calls out that example. Game mechanics sometimes make head scratchers for balance/ease/utility purposes and that's fine.

They also decided that having to spend 6 actions in the middle of combat, potentially while slowed, to unmanifest and remanifest something tied to your hp and actions in combat is already punishment enough to not go any further into the argument about does the effect persist, etc. RAW I think you can't even do something costing 3 actions while you are limited to 2 or 1, but my group would let a summoner in this situation sit there over multiple rounds, doing nothing but concentrating on unmanifesting then manifesting as ongoing tasks, maybe asking for something akin to a concentration check if either is disrupted.

Everyone agreed that meld into eidolon was a clear exception to that rule because it's obvious intent was to remove the summoner from play and allow the eidolon to continue, or another way to say it, the summoner becomes the eidolon. It would be a useless ability otherwise, as the eidolon wouldn't get any actions, and they wouldn't need to go into great lengths to discuss what the summoner still could or couldn't do.

Since it isn't explicitly stated anywhere, it would be a GM call to say an eidolon gets it's own actions in those situations and would allow for potentially gamebreaking things to happen, like the eidolon crafting/researching/earning income as the summoner slept. If that's how someone chooses to run things that's fine. Maybe having the eidolon keep watch while the summoner sleeps is actually fine because speaking is a free action and simple perception to notice those creeping up on the group is also reactionary/free.

[JourneyRei]

Wait, I was looking around and found what appears to be a contradiction about being unable to act.

as per "gaining and loosing actions", on pg 462 of the handbook, last sentence..

"The most restrictive form of reducing actions is when an effect states that you can’t act: this means you can’t use any actions, or even speak. When you can’t act, you don’t regain your actions and reaction on your turn."

But under the quickened condition, pg 622, of the same book, there is a sidebar "gaining and loosing actions" that mentions more rules are on pg 462 but ends with this..

"Other conditions simply say you can’t act. When you can’t act, you’re unable to take any actions at all. Unlike slowed or stunned, these don’t change the number of actions you regain; they just prevent you from using them. That means if you are somehow cured of paralysis on your turn, you can act immediately."

One of my friends said it says paralyzed there so that's the only exception. I said it was but an example and besides, paralyzed says you can still do purely mental action so it's different anyway. My focus was that both of these rules seem to categorically state when someone is under an effect that states they "can't act", obey the following rules.

It would appear to me that the Summoner rules were written with the rule from pg 622 in mind, not 462. Which is why it categorically states when one of you is restricted in how you may spend your actions, the other is not as in the example of immobilization or petrifaction. Then why it goes on in the meld into eidolon feat to state what actions cannot be taken, despite starting off with saying the summoner "can't act".

I tried to point this out, saying I just wanted consistency, and got told for the love of god drop it. End of discussion.

I guess this is just for me now, whatever. So which is it? Gotta say, I'm a little tired of something stating "for example" then being told that's the one and only time it applies. That's not what 'example' means.

[breithauptclan]

There are some other shenanigans that come up when things "can't act". Some threads here and here.

And I agree that 'paralysis' is just an example of something that applies the "can't act" condition. If you have any condition that says that you can't act and you somehow lose that condition on the same round that you gain it, then you would be able to use any actions you still had. You wouldn't lose them immediately when you gain the condition and not get them back when you lose the condition.

Meld Into Eidolon is not written very precisely as a result. I don't think that the intent is to apply a "can't act" condition to the Summoner and then enforce the shared action pool rules to then result in a manifested Eidolon that has no actions available. That would be completely broken and unplayable.

The Summoner alone can't act. The Eidolon gets all of the actions as normal for a character on their turn.

[The Raven Black]

Paralysed is not a true Can't act (in the meaning of unable to refresh your actions pool), as it mentions using actions, which implies they were refreshed.

[The Raven Black]

I am not sure there is actually any true Can't act, except for Stunned (duration).

[JourneyRei]

The Raven Black wrote:

I am not sure there is actually any true Can't act, except for Stunned (duration).

As mentioned earlier, petrification comes to mind. And what about unconscious?

[The Raven Black]

JourneyRei wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I am not sure there is actually any true Can't act, except for Stunned (duration).

As mentioned earlier, petrification comes to mind. And what about unconscious?

My very bad. I blindly trusted AoN's Search engine.

Indeed Petrified and Unconscious are there too. As would be Slowed beyond 3 I guess.

[The Raven Black]

Since the Quckened sidebar is presented as summing up the rules on pg 462, I would rule that those are the RAW. That they used the Paralysed example just muddies things even more, since it is true even though the wording just before is not right.

[HumbleGamer]

I think you can give your actions to you eidolon while paralized.

Reading either confused and petrified they seem not allowing you to use actions at all ( confused may be interrupted though, resulting in you hitting yourself and ending the condition, leaving 2 actions to deal with your eidolon ), while paralized would allow you to.

[shroudb]

paralise states that you are allowed purely mental actions based on GM interpetation of what is a purely mental action.

and since you dont have to "command" (as a physical action like animal companions and such) your Eidolon, I do think that most GMs will find it reasonable that "giving actions to your eidolon" is a mental thing you can do.