NON-KINETICISTS: How do the kineticists in your party make you feel?


Rage of Elements Playtest General Discussion


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

This question is for those of you who have played a non-kineticist in a party with one or more kineticists.

What was it like, playing alongside the new class? How did you feel? Like you had to carry them? Like they overshadowed you? Like there was real opportunity for synergy and team work? What are your observations from the outside?

I'll start. I just participated in a 6th-level game alongside a lizardfolk dedicated water kineticist, an orc fire/earth kineticist, and a skeleton thaumaturge. I was playing a goblin flurry ranger with a mature tiger companion.

The first encounter included a half dozen enemies in a long, wide hallway. A second encounter occurred around a narrow bridge made of sturdy, steepled ladders over a waterfall.

It was loads of fun seeing what the kineticists can do! Anyone who claims they are action starved clearly hasn't played one. They had zero issues with action economy.

Through most of the session though, it seemed like my ranger was getting completely left behind. Forced to split my actions between the ranger and tiger companion meant that I could only cover 70 feet (tiger) and 50 feet (ranger) each round. Even while riding the beast, I could still only get 70 feet each round, due to its status as a 2-action-only minion. Contrast that to abilities like burning jet (85 feet with Stride) and water dance (95 feet with Stride), which can also allow them to ignore various terrain.

By the time I could bring my tiger, dogslicer, and arrows to bear, the fight was usually half way over already. I just could not compete with the superior mobility and firepower of the kineticists. If it wasn't for my non-combat skills (Stealth/Quiet Allies, Survival/Experienced Tracker, etc.) I may not have seen a point in playing it over another kineticist.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Anyone who claims they are action starved clearly hasn't played one. They had zero issues with action economy.

Ok, I can't ignore this blatantly wrong overgeneralization. I've played a session as a universalist kineticist and I had terrible issues with action economy. Some of them because it was my own fault trying to combine flight with anything apart from non-boomerang air impulses and simple blasts. Some of them because landing even bursts is hard when you need specific element and it costs 3 actions and enemies and allies are mixing as ususal. And some of them because landing emanation 3-action healing is almost impossible (without including enemies of course).

So in the end I couldn't use Slippery sleet and Aerial Boomerang at all in many-enemies encounter and the next one was single-boss encounter where they aren't very useful. Soothing breeze worked mostly out of combat. Tidal hands I could use at least. 9th level.
And as I suspected I don't even remotely see this power bloat of universalist when you always need to juggle elements in always changing environment while having both too low number of instruments and also lower number of them than dedicated and two-gates.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Agree to disagree then. Our experiences have clearly been very different. That is one of the reasons I started this thread; to see how others' experiences differed from my own. I prefer to keep this thread on topic than to quibble over how I phrased something though. Do you have a story in which you weren't the kineticist?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I played a fighter in a party with a Air/Earth Kineticist.

The kineticist is a master of mobility, but they are mobile in ways that can really support other party members as well. Readying an action to get thrown in the air and hit a fleeing, flying enemy felt like a really cool thing that no other class has made an available option for yet. I know that is primarily an air thing, but Water has a similar feat and they are really cool ways of supporting the party.

I think "Woah is the poor universalist, with no actions to do any of their near limitless options!" and "Woah is the dedicated gate with no options onto which to spend their actions switching elements to be able to do them!" are interesting counters to each other that are probably not being well discussed on these boards.


Unicore wrote:
I think "Woah is the poor universalist, with no actions to do any of their near limitless options!" and "Woah is the dedicated gate with no options onto which to spend their actions switching elements to be able to do them!" are interesting counters to each other that are probably not being well discussed on these boards.

Did you mean "Woe"?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Unicore wrote:
I think "Woah is the poor universalist, with no actions to do any of their near limitless options!" and "Woah is the dedicated gate with no options onto which to spend their actions switching elements to be able to do them!" are interesting counters to each other that are probably not being well discussed on these boards.
Did you mean "Woe"?

We’ll for some it is woe, and some it is definitely Woah!


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During my tests, I easily noticed that the kinetic action economy is directly linked to its "build". For build focused on Elemental Blast and without Overflow. It works well, but building focused on Overflows the action economy becomes a problem. But outsiders hardly notice it. You're not inside the elementalist's head looking at the situation and thinking "OK, I can't attack this monster with an AoE as it would affect my allies, so I'm just going to EB".

That's the point of view of players who tried to play the kineticist when I asked them how the game went. And many said most of the time "it was OK, fun, too bad I couldn't use my Overflow ability here".


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Other characters getting resistance to air, earth or water is pretty difficult and makes some of those elements AoEs a challenge. But a lot of them use cold or electricity (and fire, obviously) and those a party can build around mitigating.

This version of a Kineticist feels like it definitely plays best when it is built into the team and not just a free lance blaster that is going to try to do it all by themselves, (especially because it can’t).

Team Fire is far and away the most well represented and devastating party in PF2. Fire Kineticist, Flame Oracle, Fire Resistant champion, and Eminem of Evocation Wizard, Fire sorcerer or Alchemist can be surprisingly good, even against fire resistant enemies.

It doesn’t seem like the other elements have as much ability to support each other. Air with Tempest Druid, Oracle and sniper might be a very good long range sniper team maybe? Earth and water feel like more of a challenge except they fit in well supporting just about any party.


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I confess, sometimes when I read a RD post where he describes how classes perform in 20+ round combats that take place in thousand foot long hallways I am left wondering how contrived these scenarios might be.


Cold and wet.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
swoosh wrote:
I confess, sometimes when I read a RD post where he describes how classes perform in 20+ round combats that take place in thousand foot long hallways I am left wondering how contrived these scenarios might be.

Don't know about 1000ft hallways but I have a fight coming up on 15 rounds this weekend and it looks like it might the next 3~5 rounds easily enough.

Side note: I would have dropped this fight were it not for FoundryVTT.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
swoosh wrote:
I confess, sometimes when I read a RD post where he describes how classes perform in 20+ round combats that take place in thousand foot long hallways I am left wondering how contrived these scenarios might be.

In this case, the hallway was about 25 feet wide and ~120 feet long. On the near end there was a large open area about 165 feet wide and 80 feet long (though it was likely much longer; it was a rough semicircle that ran off the map). On the far end of the hall, it opened up into another chamber 210 wide, 170 feet long, and no less than 50 feet deep.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
swoosh wrote:
I confess, sometimes when I read a RD post where he describes how classes perform in 20+ round combats that take place in thousand foot long hallways I am left wondering how contrived these scenarios might be.

GM of this encounter here. Premise, a party of demon hunters with a warband of Orc demon Hunters in the Mwangi are investigating a ruined city rumored to be over Run with demon worshipers of Zura.the party is asked to go explore a ruined tower on a hill across from the keep of the former city. The party stumbles into the middle of a rebel sect of Floros worshipers.

I tend to make big maps with multiple encounters prepared on them so my dungeons can feel dynamic. The entrance way wasn’t a tunnel, but a narrow walled alley. Cultist and there demon Allies have a camp set up in the larger tower and the party are taking on the whole camp with no 10 minute breaks. We are only half way though, and have reset initiative a couple times, but have been keeping in encounter mode the whole time because the alarm has been raised.

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