Jolistina Susperio

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4,414 posts. Alias of Abraham spalding.


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Sean congratulations on the move and stay safe. Since you are in my half of the country now I would like to suggest looking into Concave next year -- it is in the Bowling Green Kentucky area and I KNOW they would love to see you attend. It shouldn't be too onerous being it is a relaxacon.


Name pending like heck -- that's a fine name right there.

But didn't 3.5 already do this? As well as pathfinder?

And then they broke that again?


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meatrace wrote:
DrDeth wrote:

They *are* cool. So, if you need to- just accept that they are still effective but not as good as a LB

When your definition of effective is broad enough that it encompasses crossbows, it has lost all meaning.

crossbows are effective...

...for a beguiling gift spell.


Athaleon wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Yeah sorry -- 2nd edition had just as much system mastery crap to it. It's a regular part of any game. Even simple card games (and not so simple ones), checkers or even tic-tac-toe.
Card games don't give you the option to have an Ace, a 10, or a deuce and present them as equally valid choices.

because you will never chose which card to discard. at which choice discarding any card is valid... but could easily be a trap option.

lets play poker if you really believe system mastery does not have any effect on card games.


Yeah sorry -- 2nd edition had just as much system mastery crap to it. It's a regular part of any game. Even simple card games (and not so simple ones), checkers or even tic-tac-toe.


Athaleon wrote:

@Peter Stewart:

All sarcasm aside, third edition was actually designed exactly that way. Give players a ton of options, and make most of the options bad. This is meant to reward optimizers while punishing players who take the "trap" options.

Citation?


And now that everyone else has covered it I'm good.


no they do not and i will get you the relevant texts this evening when i am home.


Marthkus wrote:
If you notice. The only class without spells or things like spells that is not considered under-powered is the barbarian. Who IMHO is not very balanced.

Okay... if you say so.


Ah, I see -- still think it is a load of crap but meh.


Rynjin wrote:
1.) Yes. But if it fires multiple attacks at once (like Scorching Ray) SA only applies to the first ray.

Is this still accurate? I have seen posts from the designers to the opposite and that agree with it.


On 3b: Healing is not damage ergo no sneak attack.


So my take:

I liked it -- it was nice to see a pixar movie that wasn't a straight comedy or got overwritten into a comedy and to see a disney movie that wasn't a stereotype out of the box and the entire length of the movie.

MUCH better than brave, and tangled, though I liked tangled more than brave... after all who can be against disney's first bondage princess?

All in all while I could do without the comic relief snowman (really he contributed NOTHING to the movie) over all I think it was the strongest 'kids' movie I have seen in a long while.


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As to moderation and what not:

I remember a thread about the magus FAQ where it was decided it wasn't a full attack, but a full round action like a full attack and so forth.

While he and I were in it and many of the posts could probably have been read as hostile, I did my best to read everything in it as just 'grumpy old men' speak as opposed to actual hostility.

Sometimes I read something and I have to back up and read it as 'not myself'. It helps me keep in perspective that they could be trying to not be offensive.

I guess what I'm saying is perhaps some of it all is our own bias coming to the fore in what we read?


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Odraude wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:

Wow, this thread ballooned and went horribly off topic pretty quickly. That's sort of sad.

I'm also saddened to see that people didn't heed BigDTBone's warning from early on.

Oh well.

Nothing wrong with a little off topic humor. Helps to lightning a dour mood :)

Though I don't get the second one. A lot of people here are generally agreeing that something needs to be done about moderation.

So does a bolt of lightning, but you electrocute a couple of people with chain lightning and suddenly you're the bad guy!


exlenor wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
So what happens when a creature is contained and starts summoning creatures that would fit in the space inside the sphere (since you have to have line of effect to where the creature will appear)?
I'm beginning to think that the sphere is full, and not just a shell.. This way the creature contained would not be able to move and there would be no space for other creatures. If this was the case the push out thing seems a bit more reasonable no?

That wouldn't follow with the wall of force spell though.


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Peter Stewart wrote:
LoneKnave wrote:
Quote:
Pretty hard to get a CHA of 20 @1st, and every spellcaster I have seen keeps Mage armor up.
Well, this explains a lot about your biases at least.

Yeah, I definitely think it does. There are some very different perceptions about the game as a whole and two very different schools of thought here.

Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Pretty hard to get a CHA of 20 @1st,

20 point-buy, human sorcerer: S 7 D 12 C 12 I 12 W 10 C 20. Make minor tweaks as you will. Or play a gnome (you can get the exact same stats as the human) and enjoy a +1 to the DC of your color spray. Without spending any feats or anything, that's DC 17 at 1st level. Smart tactics and allies help out here as well.

And if you pick the arcane bloodline, your bonded object means you get six 1st level spells at 1st level.

Baseline is 15 point buy, so lets go ahead and get that out of the way. Laying that issue aside though, I think this shows a lot of the difference between players like Death and myself and players like you Vivianne.

I would never consider tanking every other score down to 12 or less to have a 20 starting casting stat. My interest is not in crushing encounters as quickly and optimally as possible. I regularly play wizards with high charisma scores. My current wizard has a 15 strength. I think there is an entirely different mindset at work here.

"I can't stand the thought of having a weakness" is all I got out of that.

That and "I have trust issues" are what I tend to see when someone is all, "I can't have a stat under 10," or other such junk.

I'm sure the problem is with me and my perspective though.

How dare I be willing to play a guy that's generally average and maybe less than average in some ways, who is above average (or even exceptional) in others.


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Whisperknives wrote:

Simple:

Casters are there to do the things that mundane classes can't do.
However they are also just as good if not better at doing the only things that non-casters do.

Ex.

A fighter is standing at the city gate as the only defense against the invading army.
He gets ignored or slaughtered by the first 20 or so.

Same situation with a full caster.
The army dies due to manipulation of the battle field or hitting MANY people at once for guaranteed damage even if you do make the save.

OR

The Ranger/monk/ninja/ext, is going to scout a manor to see what is going on before the whole party enters. He takes 30 mins with about 10 skill checks.

The Full caster just uses invisibility/silence or clairvoyance/scry and does it better and faster.

First example -- falls apart on impact, we've had this one out multiple times already.

Second example -- More an example of people not paying attention to what the spells state... silence is a horrible scouting spells since you can't listen to what is going on around you and people notice when they can't hear anything around them all of a sudden. Scry requires a target can be noticed, allows a save throw, is a small area spell, takes a long time to use, etc. and clairvoyance has its own issues.


Quote:
1-ft.-diameter/level sphere, centered around a creature

So at caster level 10 it is a 10 foot diameter sphere, which is large enough to cover 4 squares. Which means it has enough room for more than one creature.

so how does it develop?

Quote:
A sphere-shaped spell expands from its point of origin to fill a spherical area. Spheres may be bursts, emanations, or spreads.

This suggests that anyone near the point of origin (namely the target) will be pushed out of the area.

However:

Quote:
The sphere functions as a wall of force, except that it can be negated by dispel magic.

Which is a wall spell which develops at the perimeter of an area. Which suggests that instead of the normal push out it could simply be a literal round wall of force (that is susceptible to dispel magic) meaning it could surround more than one person.

BUT:

Quote:
A globe of shimmering force encloses a creature, provided the creature is small enough to fit within the diameter of the sphere.

Hints that it will only contain one creature...

So what happens when a creature is contained and starts summoning creatures that would fit in the space inside the sphere (since you have to have line of effect to where the creature will appear)?

Personally I have ended up treating the spell like a wall spell and allow multiple creatures to be targeted if they all fit into the space the spell will cover. Since the spell allows a save throw I generally go with the following line from wall of force

Quote:
If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.

and say that if a creature saves they successfully imposed themselves and broke the surface as the spell was forming and prevented the spell.

Effectively meaning that if you do not contain a creature with it you cannot use the spell as a means of area denial.


The problem I have seen isn't that you can't get your worse save up to over 50% and generally keep it there through out a game -- it's that the differences between the best and the worse is so pronounced and so easy to upset.

If you have casters with the best save DCs possible (in core) and have the best supplements to your save throw bonuses possible (in core) then and you maintain those across all levels they will stay even.

The problem comes in when most people in the party have done so and that one character hasn't or visa versa (when only one person in the party has done so and no one else in the party has).


aceDiamond wrote:
My point is, regardless of how useful spontaneous is over prepared spellcasting, it irks me that the only way to add to spells known other than the human favored class bonus is a Page of Spell Knowledge. It's not like you can learn new spells relatively cheaply like a wizard can.

There is also a feat you can take.

But a large part of the reason it isn't as easy for a sorcerer is because of how they cast. It makes a huge difference.


It is different precisely because of how their core mechanics differ.

This isn't apple to apple it is apple to limes.

Yes they are both fruit and yes they are both nutritious but their taste, method of being eaten and what sort of nutrients you gain from each are different as is the way you prepare them.

You wouldn't make an apple pie from oranges and you wouldn't make key lime pies out of apples.


It a similar ability yes and they both get extra spells known yes, but the sorcerer can make better use of the ability from a day to day basis.

Where the wizard has unlimited spells known he has limited spells available per day constrained by his spell slots.

The sorcerer is not constrained by this -- any spell known he can cast provided he has spell slots of that level or higher available.

It would be more accurate to say it would be the same benefit if the wizard could spontaneously switch out a spell prepared for the spell he knows through his favored class ability.

This same point stands for the bard and inquisitor and works against the witch as well.

The class doesn't matter in this regard -- only if it is a spontaneous caster or a prepared caster.

Spontaneous casters get more use out of this ability.


So it's an actual +4 to diplomacy checks (as well as other charisma checks), not the +2 as was suggested (plus the other abilities you can get from it of course.


MagusJanus wrote:
RegUS PatOff wrote:


I'm surprised the Human alternate Favored Class Option from the Advanced Races guide hasn't been mentioned:
Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast. (Oops - ninja'd.)

A human sorcerer with this FCO can wind up with a significantly large number of spells known.

Scroll down on that page. Wizards get the same benefit. So do witches, inquisitors, and bards.

No wizards do not gain the same benefit. The get a similar benefit but for sorcerers who can cast any spell known at any time the benefit is much bigger than it is for a wizard.


Is it a straight +4 bonus to charisma?

If so then the importance of it cannot be overstated for a sorcerer, oracle and potentially for a paladin or bard. That's a huge increase in power at very minor cost for those characters.


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So I've seen a lot of threads suggesting that if you have a low stat then you should act a certain way, or that you are lacking in said stat in all ways without exception.

One example often cited is charisma. If you have a low charisma you are understandably not a people's person (even though you may be a people person), but does that mean you are ugly, unlikable, shy, off-putting, and a jerk all at the same time -- or could you not be one of those?

If you are lacking in wisdom could it be that you are simply unaware and not strong of will while still having a certain amount of 'folksy wisdom' to you that you simply learn from your grangran?

I would argue that by not allowing such expressions and by forcing people into a strict interpretation of what each stat means people are actually acting in a way that will lead to players being overly concerned with their stats and numbers and correspondingly less concerned with their overall character concept to the point of wanting new numbers for things (including substats) to help make the numbers match what they want their character to be more.

I would suggest that allowing the numbers to be more... fuzzy on what they represent without negating the mechanical penalties involved with them can help people look past the numbers and develop more in depth characters.

I would also suggest allowing characters to invest in improving the flaws with skills, traits and feats is a good thing that can help GMs show improvement is possible even if it comes at cost and helps bring a more realistic bent to the game as a whole.

Thoughts?


Summon 9 would be my choice.

d3 trumpet archeons/astral devas or best off ghaele azata?

Yeah that's like 4 heal spells, and 2 holy words and 2 walls of force... and and and.


Something I allow is the use of cantrips with it. I know it says otherwise but I have yet to find it game breaking especially at the level you have to be to take it.


Which is the more specific case?

Everyone that rolls an attack roll with a natural 20?

Or when a specific class (swashbuckler) does a specific thing (activates an ability) in a specific case (when attacked) causes a miss?

I mean yeah you could argue the other way.

But it would take a certain kind of special.

But if you don't like that consider:

The only point the ability activates is if an attack would hit.

Was there an attack? Yes
Would it hit? Yes
Did you roll higher? (presumably yes)
Attack misses.


Alitan wrote:

I dislike this suggestion every time I come across it. I suppose YMMV, but I say, if you want spell progression on odd levels, play a wizard.

Sorcerer bloodline powers quite adequately round out the sorcerer class, in my opinion. And the 6:5 (if you specialize, 6:4 if you don't) top spell capacity at each level (we can ignore bonus spells in this comparison, since we can safely assume the base stat for casting will be bumped up equally by both wizards and sorcerers) is nothing to sneeze at...

So, if you want to be truly versatile as a wizard and avoid specializing to not have opposition schools, a sorcerer of any bloodline has 150% maximum spell capacity at any given level of spells.

And yet, people continue to say sorcerers should get equal level progression for gaining new levels of spells.

I disagree.

Except on the odd levels beyond 1st, when wizards generally have the same number of spells per day.


specific overrides general.

General rule -- 20 always hits.

Specific rule -- roll over what they did and they miss.


I think it's a bit more than you are offering -- a +4 with chance to counter an attack for just a -1 on attack rolls is a rather good exchange. However it is rather feat intensive.

But with that said it is something that can work really well for a magus since they have to keep the hand free. A two level dip (which hurts I know) into a martial artist master of many styles can get you through the feats pretty quickly.

All in all like anything else magus it's a pick your poison deal.


Louis Lyons wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
I think they were done earlier in the thread.

I checked. Ogres were brought up in the discussion, but no one has yet wrote an "Ogre Orphange" entry.

I'd love to see someone's take on how Ogres could possibly be raised to be productive and good-aligned (or at least neutral-aligned) members of a civilized society.

So you are right -- well... when are you going to write it?


I think they were done earlier in the thread.


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dryads upcoming.


looking through the awesome list and thinking, ugh all those contradicting rulings...

might need some clean up on that front.

but still a really awesome list.


Or you could just take the crane style feats to reduce the penalty to a 1 and then combined (and having ranks in acrobatics) to get a total of +7 to ac... +9 if you are a halfling and spend a feat on cautious fighter.

+9 dodge to AC for a -1 on attack rolls? I'll do that.

Of course that's 5 feats at that point but you do get to negate a melee attack a round and take an AoO on it too so there is that.


If I recall correctly don't dolphins use a third to help with the... um... pushing?

Could be something like that.

Or perhaps they have three chromosomes and each parent type only provides one of the three?

Could be like a plant or corral and do a mass release at a certain time.


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So um...

We are going to fit the agile tongue feat into this somehow right?


I'm kind of reminded of slaughterhouse five and the seven people involved in reproduction.


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or we could go for a real turn and say sex has nothing to do with reproduction in game. there could be other factors that cause pregnancy or just go xanth on the entire question.


Kingmaker spoilers:

BBEG of kingmaker for an EXACT example of a nymph with increased spell casting due to character levels.


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Baron Ulfhamr wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:

How is my attraction to dudes a matter of "mature content" when my attraction to women is not?

Maybe I just don't understand why my existence should "remain the domain of parenting and/or self discovery without agenda". Should a child not be exposed to Disney films for fear that they might see straight people falling in love? How is Cinderella's love story G-rated but a man falling in love with a man considered mature content?

You made your point in bold, capitol letters, but I still don't see it...

Let's not pretend there's no controversy on this topic, nor that ignoring that controversy in a fantasy world will solve said controversy in the real world.

At some point the fantasy world will differ from the real one (imagine that! lol), what's being determined now is how liberal/conservative/whatever Golarion will be. Is this NOT what we're really talking about here?

I'm not qualified to judge another human being, nor am I trying to, my concern is over an "official" stance on a controversial topic in a public fantasy forum

It's only controversial because others can't keep their damn noses out of someone else's business and seek to condemn them for their actions.


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Have a reason -- always have a reason for what you cast and when you cast it. Yes it might be the wrong choice but if you have a reason people will understand. The only time you should reconsider is if your reason is, "because I have to cast a spell this round."


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So you want to be the all mighty wizard (or not -- sorcerers, oracles, clerics, druids, magi, witches and summoners are welcome too), but the thing is you don't want to be 'that wizard'. We all know the one -- the guy that insists that the only reason the rest of the party is there is to waste time between his turns and how if the whole party was spell casters they could play on super easy mode.

You aren't looking to steal anyone's thunder -- you just want to morph reality at a whim, and there is nothing wrong with that (if you are me at least)!

There are several steps in this and it's a process that is learned and takes practice. But if you are willing to spend the time, effort, and (perhaps most importantly) develop the deviousness then you too can have REAL ULTIMATE POWER, and still walk down the street without a rulebook stuck up your can.

The first thing to do is get on your GM's good side. You want to know his pet peeves, know how he operates his story line and where you can step. Make no mistake -- if you are full on playing a wizard you are very much going to be walking on the GM's toes every now and then. The key is to tread softly and be careful where you step. Have him develop a subtle sign he can give you before you run roughshod over something he wants the party to go through. Generally if the wizard doesn't bring it up, no one else in the party will -- and if they do then it's not your fault it came up. This means that even though you are the guy with the answer, it isn't your answer, so you aren't going to get blamed for it.

The second thing to do is know your party both the characters and the players. A lot of wizards like having high initiative (I am no exception) but the truly masterful take that high initiative and then delay.

By delaying or readying an action you can hit when it matters most with the spell that is needed the most, and you aren't drawing first blood. This can be important as some players greatly desire that, or will see your early actions (even if buffing) as devaluing them. It also tells the GM that you consider him a canny opponent -- not to be taken lightly and that you realize you need to pay attention in order to not be had by his wily ways.

You are going to want to know what your team is about too. IF you have a 'rock of a fighter' that stands solid and trades blows you aren't going to want to be pushing foes away from him or making him unable to sit still and engage. You also don't want to take away from his solid hits with last hit kills or dumping a lot of damage. Clear out the mooks from around him so he can go solid against the large damage source for you.

If you have a bard focus on battlefield control and let him be the major buffer (if he's that sort of bard) -- you both contribute and don't step on each others toes.

And perhaps just as importantly always remember to have mundane means to solve problems with you. Passwall is great! A flask of acid and some magic lockpicks for the rogue is cheaper on your resources though, and keeps other players with skin in the game.

If you find yourself at the end of a turn and you don't know what to cast -- don't cast. Move around and maybe aid other if you feel the need. I have gone entire battles where I cast one spell at the beginning of the fight and did nothing else. I didn't bother with the crossbow I didn't swing my staff I just sat back and out of the way. We have always been able to ignore the concept of 15 minute adventuring day in part because I don't feel the need to cast every single time I have a chance.

This does two things -- it preserves resources and makes you look canny and trusting in your allies. Look if you have a dwarven stalwart defender and you are facing giants you can step back and let her have fun. You don't have to get fancy with the high level spells, just give her a heroism and let her go.

Finally leave some slots open at higher level. You aren't likely to blow through all your spells in a single fight and you rarely need more than a couple utility spells on the spot to save a slot or two of each spell level so you can be versatile in the field.

More suggestions from other players are always welcome.


This is one of those books I've been waiting for -- between it and the gamemaster's guide I feel I have specialized, direct and insightful books to help my new or amateur players mature and grow in the hobby without me pulling my hair out or them feeling like someone is bashing them over the head with 'the right way to do things'.

And hopefully it will include a few surprises or new ideas for myself as well.


Yup the scrollbook of spells is a great deal for the false priest. It works even better if after level 9 you go into pathfinder savant to get the scrolls at your caster level.


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Again in it's own comment then:

I always wonder about out the different races and cultures of Golarion would speak in 'the language of love'.

For example in the real world different languages have different words to describe different types of love or use adjectives and nouns together differently to express different concepts on love (for example the greek seven kinds of love.

It would be interesting to see if the elves have different words for the length of time the love covers, or who the love is with or if it is a romantic love or not.

Equally interesting to me is how the dwarves would describe the same things.

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