The 15 point stat block rule is built into the encounter design system by default. What is being overlooked for Gibbs is the effects of his age category, the effects of being possessed by the Splatter Man and his +2 racial bonus for being a half-elf. All of these factor into his CR.

The math on the orc is the same and spelled out: heroic melee array (15 points) + advanced simple template (increasing CR from 3 to 4) + orc ability score modifiers +1 STR from gaining 4th HD.

Having already acknowledged that I should have relocated the CR 4 monster elsewhere, I have yet to see from either you or K_GM any sort of acknowledgement on the series of mistakes made by you two leading up to game day (outlined above).

In a site-based encounter paradigm such as this one, you of all people know full well that you can take the proverbial wrong turn at Albuquerque and find yourselves being fed feet-first into a meat grinder. I warned everyone of this possibility nearly two months in advance.

Speaking of nasty encounters though, one of the things you taught me back in the day was the same thing I prodded you on (which would have applied to the second encounter in your specific case): never be afraid to run away. Another thing you taught well was the value of teamwork. Prior to this session the players had ample time to "talk" to each other, rifle off questions to me, and so on. The players - as outlined above - could, at great risk, have kited or maneuver-spanked the second encounter so bad it wasn't even funny.

All of the advice above only scratches the surface of the options that were at this group's disposal had the group followed up on its previous, well-established tradition of thinking so far outside of the box that the box looked like a shoebox tucked away in a closet somewhere.

Was I the a-hole for the critter to begin with? Should I have run it differently? Absolutely. This was my one mistake.

This does not absolve you and K_GM of your roles in weakening the group's starting positions as badly...

Okay so let me once again restate a couple things we are not being afforded in our as you so put it "roles in weakening the group's starting positions". First, neither of us has played Pathfinder for the better part 18+ months if not longer. Where you have continued to play in the system for a few years straight now. So when you are away from a game system (i.e. Pathfinder) for such a long time and just got through playing in a system which is completely different for 6+ months one could deduce using simple logic our expertise will be quite rusty to say the least. The way you see how we should have done things assumes we essentially were coming in at the same level of expertise you have or at least near it. I am sorry there is no way that's reasonable to assume by any standard. So yes we were not thinking outside the box and our tactics weren't even close to being up to snuff.

Second, the other three players in the question lack any real experience with any of tactics you say we should use. Hell one person Jason hadn't even played the system before. No offense to the other players but neither are expert tacticians like yourself.

Lastly, concerning all the information you sent out that we had some much time to read and absorb let me be quite frank on this one. K_GM has a full time job (10-12 hr day last I checked) and two kids with a demanding wife. My Mon-Thu consists of out by 6:30am home by 9pm, eat a little dinner, and maybe watch TV for 1 hour then it's off to bed. So Fri-Sun is recovery mode and Honey Dos. With that said, yea I didn't read all the material available to me nor did K_GM.

I always love it when the person with all the answers looks at those without all the answers and says, "why can't you figure it or get a clue it's right there in front of you". Well gee Mr. Wizard no kidding! I assume it does seem obvious to the one holding all the answers. I mean hell that's like an Owl giving the mouse a lecture about his lack of foreknowledge that it was being eyed as a meal from a far off distance while said Owl is eating the poor mouse.

I just don't see your expectations of us being reasonable and if you think they were then that's just going to be a place we will just agree to disagree. I as far as I am concerned the matter is settled and I have said my peace. By all means respond, I continue this discussion with you.

Well since we are talking about clue bats how about you explain these two NPCs which completely break your imposed 15 point stack block rule. Especially like how the Orc Undead Champion was able to have a 19 base strength when the highest possible is 18. Both these NPCs were at minimum twice our stat blocks.

CR 3 Gibbs Summoner 4
14 Str = 5
12 Dex = 2
14 Con = 5
12 Int = 2
10 Wis = 0
18 Cha = 17
Total Points: 31

Nameless CR 4 Orc Skeletal Champion
Str 25* = 17+ (? Highest ability possible 18)
Dex 19** = 13
Con —
Int 12*** = 5
Wis 14**** = 10
Cha 12***** = 5
Total Points = 50

*Base Stat less racial/template modifers 25 = 19 + 4(Orc Bonus) + 2(Undead Champion Bonus)
** Base Stat less template modifers 19 = 17 + 2(Undead Champion Bonus)
*** Base Stat less racial modifers 12 = 14 - 2(Orc Penalty)
**** Base Stat less template modifers 14 = 16 - 2(Orc Penalty)
***** Base Stat less template modifers 12 = 14 - 2(Orc Penalty)

Here is an example CR 4 monster.

Minotaur CR 4
XP 1,200
CE Large monstrous humanoid

Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +10

Defense
AC 14, touch 9, flat-footed 14 (+5 natural, –1 size)
hp 45 (6d10+12)
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +5

Defensive Abilities natural cunning

Offense
Speed 30 ft.

Melee greataxe +9/+4 (3d6+6/×3) and gore +4 (1d6+2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks powerful charge (gore +11, 2d6+6)

Statistics
Str 19, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +6; CMB +11; CMD 21
Feats Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack
Skills Intimidate +5, Perception +10, Stealth +2, Survival +10; Racial Modifiers +4 Perception, +4 Survival

My word that doesn't even come close the Orc Undead Champion!

Furthermore here is something written from a GM concerning this very situation.

The CRs of creatures are built on the idea that a party of 4 PCs is going to be fighting them, and the CR of the monster determines if it's an appropriate challenge for PCs of a certain level. For example, a barghest is CR 4 ... an adequate and appropriate challenge for 4 4th-level PCs. 4th-level PCs ought to have about 5,400 gp worth of gear, which means that all of the fighter-types ought to have a +1 weapon, which would allow them to get through the barghest's DR 15/+1 (secondary fighters like the rogue and cleric may not have +1 weapons and may have a hard time facing it in melee).

Now if you use the false corollary above, you might think that if 4 PCs of level 2 can handle an EL 2 encounter, 8 PCs of level 2 should be able to handle an EL 4 (2+2) encounter. The problem with that idea is that 2nd-level PCs are only supposed to have about 900 gp worth of gear ... not enough for a +1 melee weapon. That means that those PCs are going to have a really hard time bypassing the barghest's DR 15/+1. Also, the barghest's attacks are +9 melee and +4 melee, which means it's probably going to hit at least once per round and deal at least 6.5 points of damage per round (average bite damage) per round, which means that in 3 average rounds there's a good chance it's taken down one 2nd-level fighter (who probably has about 18-20 hit points). Since the PCs have a really hard time getting through its DR, that means the fight will last at least three rounds and therefore at least one character is going to drop, and then it's just going to repeat every three rounds until all of the primary fighters are down and it can start going to town on the rogues, clerics, and wizards in the group.
The scenario is even worse when you have a creature with an area attack, like a young white dragon (CR 3) which does 3d6 to everyone in the cone (it can take out some 2nd-level characters even if they make their saves).
The biggest problem of using one-creature CR-appropriate encounters for a large group is that those monsters tend to be big bruisers capable of instantly killing a low-level character with one hit. A fight where the PCs are hoping to kill the monster fast because it's killing a PC every round isn't a fun fight.

I really like that last statement, "The biggest problem of using one-creature CR-appropriate encounters for a large group is that those monsters tend to be big bruisers capable of instantly killing a low-level character with one hit. A fight where the PCs are hoping to kill the monster fast because it's killing a PC every round isn't a fun fight."

I am trying to figure out what my total Natural Armor Bonus would be while using Dragon Form (Form of the Dragon II). Here is what I know so far.

Sorcerer Draconic Bloodline
Dragon Resistances: +4 Natural Armor Bonus at 15th Level

Dragon Disciple
Natural Armor Increase +3 at 7th Level Dragon Disciple

Dragon Form (Form of the Dragon II) Dragon Disciple 10
+6 Natural Armor Bonus

So do all these bonuses stack to a total of +13 Natural Armor when using Dragon Form at 10th Level Dragon Disciple? If not, what should it be.

I have a suggestion for the Human Weapon Training racial feature. There are currently several classes that make this feature useless (i.e. Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger). I would suggest if you choose one these classes as a Human the Weapon Training racial feature would act like the Weapon Focus feat instead of giving proficiency for a selected Martial Weapon.

MainBattleTank wrote:

[

This is indeed Haru. Yes, my math was off but that wasn't the point.

You must realize that your first post made me feel as though you were blaming your character's death on me...

"Blaming" is not the term I would use; rather, "Related to" is more the term that comes to mind. Haru and Ace, you both seem to think that you can just stack your AC's to the ceiling, and that's it, the GM can't do anything about it. Rest assured that Turin WILL make this a competitive game. He will add opponents that ARE capable of hitting your high AC's. He will NOT merely sit back and watch every monster & villain in the entire campaign miss you repeatedly. You both choose to ignore how this affects other players. If we all had a 35 AC then at least no one is going to get shredded worse than anyone else, but when the upgunned monsters that have a modest chance of hitting your AC 35+ lay into me, I'm swiss cheese, AC 20 or 26 is of little consequence if I'm not at least in the low to mid 30's. You've placed most of your egges in one basket, and you seem to refuse to comprehend how this potentially impacts other players in the group who did not place most of their eggs in the same basket as you did.

I found your post, I believe.

I will now repsond to it.

You are right that my high AC does force Turin to make stronger monsters. However, I have had a characters in this campaign with a "reasonable" AC as you did. Remember my Druid, he was one-shotted because the monster was able to power attack and still have a fairly reasonable chance to hit me.

I am not at all expecting to be invincible. However, I do expect to prevent power attacks and attacks from mook monsters from landing regualarly. Mooks can nickel and dime you down if your AC is in the low to mid 20's. If you are flat-footed and that happens you can easily be killed. Take the Gargolye encounter as an example. If your AC was 29 flat-footed like mine was a lot more of those attacks would not have landed. They had +11 bouns so basically it comes down to roll a nat 18 or go away. You took 120hp worth of damage when you could have taken more like 40 or 50 even less.

In addition, it makes absolutely no tactical sense to not have your best defense toward what you will face the most. You are immune to disease and poison which cost you well over 30k. How many times is that defense going to save your bacon? I am sure quite a few instances will arise. I will grant you that.

Now let's look at how many times you are going to be in melee with some kind of monster. That is almost always going to happen. Does it not make sense to have a great defense againist that as well. I mean you basically laugh at any poison or disease inflictors. Why not apply the same logic to phyiscal defense.