Golem-Breaker

evil_diva's page

Goblin Squad Member. Organized Play Member. 40 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character.


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These are all super amazing ideas. Sadly I forgot to mention one detail; no spell casting in any from. I am not a huge fan of playing a spell caster (never was never will be, I hate keeping track of spells and all of that hullabaloo).

But so far the Barbarian/Slayer sounds amazing.
And sorry Jeff, the link shows me nothing when I click it.


So I have this idea for making a Ulfen warrior based on a Shield Maiden.
The only thing I have so far is her design and name and the thought of having her be a fighter. But I am curious about what possibilities I have. I am open for advices and help with a good solid build (Equipment, skills, Feats, whatever).
My own drawing.


My dwarf after a not so well liked party member, was dragged away by a shadow lady:

Under a spoiler since some might be sensitive to the rude language used.

Spoiler:

"Ding dong the b@*#! is dead, b&$~* oh b$*!!, the f*!!ing b*!+@."


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Our Monk: "I carefully kick in the door."
-----

GM: "There´s a ghost, and it´s dead"
-----

Player: "I keep myself out of this crap"
GM: "Yeah but the crap is following you"
Player: "What is this crap that´s following me?!"
----

GM: "Now it´s the corpse turn... And it does nothing"
----

Payer 1: "Lorastine! I am the lord of the keep and I say you´re not allowed to pee on people´s pillows"
Player 2: "But I am the lady of the keep and I pee where I want to!"


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I shall join in here too because I am a bisexual.
I first realized it when I was in my start teens and I have been RP´ing since I was around 16-17 years old. So hey, hello everyone.
I have a wonderful Boyfriend and I love roleplaying, but Pen and Paper but also forum RPs.

I have never been assaulted, either physically or verbally for being bisxual and I´ve had great support from friends, boyfriend and family. Granted some in my family don't know I am a bisexual. Pretty sure my dad doesn't know it. But in general it has been rather drama-free with my sexiality. Just down to earth really, so I don´t have much to share with you guys.

But hello to all!


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Orthos wrote:

I hate the way Paizo's forums have become so much like Tumblr in the past few years. Especially with the way Certain Subjects are heavily moderated.

I hate Imagine by John Lennon. Worst song in the world.

I am a Tumblr user myself, and I am almost afraid to ask how it has become like Tumblr? Are we talking "Omg! tag your s#*! because I get super triggered by this!!" Or more in the as-sensitive-as-a-toothache-aggressive-SJW-crap?

*hides and prays*
Plus don´t let paizo turn into -that- part of tumblr.


The Alkenstarian wrote:
evil_diva wrote:
I often RP a character that is spunky, fresh, outgoing, and super social. Which is funny, seeing as I am a very down to earth, quiet little mouse in real life.
Noooo! You may be a mouse (I'm not sure I agree with this one either, but I'll let it fly), but you're not quiet. There are far, far too many fart-related jokes coming from your corner for you to be considered quiet, m'dear :D

But Fart jokes are hilarious! We have both agreed on we share the same toilet humor, ahahaha!


The Alkenstarian wrote:
evil_diva wrote:
1) I really hate elves. I seriously do.

*points to ears in profile picture*

But ... but ... but ... but we're so fluffy and tree-huggy and awesome and cool and FAAAABULOOOOUS!

Also, our sweat is clean enough to drink, we always land on our feet, the same as cats, and we're generally just awesome and fantastic and can do no wrong.

And I couldn't even write all that with a straight face ...

Confimed! GM is an elf, now I have to kill. Guess there will be no Legacy of Fire tonight.

I am sorry, Alken, but I´ll have to put you down, girl.


Little late to the post, but I am going to watch Star Vs. The Forces of Evil.

I saw there were some new episodes so I need to catch up on it.
Just finished watching all the Gravity Falls episodes with my BF so I shall move onward to the next series. Then I have to wait till my series updates with new episodes.


I´ll just take the BG for my current Legacy of Fire Character.

Name: Agna Helgasdottir.
Race: Dwarf.

Agna Helgasdottir was born and raised in Janderhoff, the varisianese dwarven sky citadel, situated just north of Korvosa. Daughter of Helga Aegismaker the forgemistress of the Embermoss caverns, and Rory Redbeard, the keeper of the alehall of Brombol, Agna enjoyed status, wealth, a safe environment, and soul crushing expectations, piled on by her extended family, as well as her own parents. And although she knew how to courtesy and smile politely, as the years went on, and the future, with all its responsibilities and 10.000 things that had to be done ´for the sake of the family´ started approaching at an unwelcome speed, and she found herself repressing more and more panic with every social gathering, be it friendly visits, family get-togethers, or merely conversations at the evening dinner-table.

Deliverance arrived, in the shape of Thryemer, a friend of the family, who returned to Janderhoff after 11 years of travel one glorious day. As an avid traveller of the topside world, a gatherer of hogwash literature and a member of some association of topsiders called The Pathfinder Society, Thryemer provided a pleasant distraction, as everyone who had ever leveled an expectation on her scrambled to speak with Thryemer, or decry him as a madman who should be kicked out of the halls before his madness could spread. The last ones may have had it right because his madness did spread, oh boy did it ever. Tales of the infinite stretches of grasslands, mighty forests with living tree, centuries old and still growing, of the endless blue of the ocean and sky, and the sometimes headache-inducing, but never boring, ever-changing cultures of the topsiders, filled a certain young head with such wonder, such hope for an escape, that she mustered all her courage, and asked for just that. Thryemer must indeed have been mad, because just like that, he accepted. There was no delay, no seeking permission, not a mention of responsibility or what was owed the family. Only a broad smile, a slap on the back and a grunt of approval.

Of all the wonders she beheld in following years, none stole the breath from right out of her lungs, as much as the city of Absalom. The greatest city that ever was or will be, they said, and Agna believed them. It was here that she met with her first venture captain, a man from the grand lodge of the so-called pathfinders, who accepted her into their organization as a trainee. It was a hard couple of years, filled with physical exercise, reading and not an insignificant bit of travelling around the isle of Korthos. In the end, she wound up acing her physical tests, and although there was still work to do on the whole ´appreciation for story´ front, she was deemed to have the right stuff, and the capabilities to work as a newly hatched journeyman pathfinder. The boat left the following week, carrying her across the inner sea, - to the continent called Garund, to the country of Katapesh, into the employee of a man called Garavel, and onward towards the town of Kelmarane.


Well there has been many and many more during my time as an active RP´er. I used to be part of a RP club where they had a website, and on that website was a whole section just filled with weird and funny things people had said.

The only recent one I really remember is, pathetically enough my own too, "I don´t like magic food, it has that weird arcane aftertaste".

But I am sure my friends (who are on the board too), and fling out a few from our campaigns together.


I would much rather have my GM challenging than brutal.
To me (this is just MY opinion) a Brutal GM is one who uses his Godlike powers to make his players suffer, just for his amusement and to see his players fail. A Challenging GM is one who throws various challenges at you and is happy to see you succeed in them, probably teaching you a valuable lesson.


Not a fan of them.
The last one we ever had was a dude who got burned and died from it. We forgot about him in a ditch somewhere and kept on adventuring.


I was never got at that whole alignment thingamajig, but I think I am on the Neutral Good boat.


I often RP a character that is spunky, fresh, outgoing, and super social. Which is funny, seeing as I am a very down to earth, quiet little mouse in real life.

But it´s rather normal that people add some things to their characters that reflects themselves or make up for qualities they wish they had in real life. And I can indeed mention a few I know, both friends and acquaintances. But hey, I do it myself too. After all, RP´ing is for many of us an escapism from the real world, and a way to unwind, recharge our mental batteries before we have to face the real world yet again. And to some it's just a nice relaxing hobby :D


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1) I really hate elves. I seriously do.

2) I dislike playing spellcasters and all that nitty gritty management of spells, rules around the spells, components and all of that hullabaloo.

3) I am not a fan of Drows either. Too much of a "Unique Snowflake" feel to it for my taste.

4) I dislike evil campaigns.

5) I dislike Eastern stuff too in fantasy games tho I can´t really say why, it just bothers me. I guess it´s how some people hype it up that makes me think "meh" about it.

6) I love rogues and always will.

7) I love ROLEplay instead of ROLLplay. Hell yeah character driven RP is the best ever!

8) Most of Paizo´s Adventure Paths don´t catch my interest.

9) I hate the character designs for the Gnome and the hafling. And I really do mean HATE it. I love Wayne Reynolds art, but those two designs makes me so annoyed. I liked the old D&D designs better. If I make a Gnome or Hafling, I draw them as seen in 3.0 and 3.5.

10) I love Dwarves.

11) I have never multiclassed and never will. Dislike the idea.

12) Don´t really care much about other races than the core races.


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Oh dang this sounds like a pickle to be in, must say.
I have been part of games too where some players have felt they got trembled down like this and it´s never fun. I have never experienced it on myself but I have heard some of my friends having similar problems with GM´s making odd calls like this.

Okay, trying to put on my boring and responsible adult hat here
*Puts on a fancy tophat*

There can be various reasons to why your GM does this.
1) He doesn't fully understand the rules.
- It happens, even for the best of GMs. But some GMs won´t accept it if they´re proven wrong, and others will accept it.

2) He doesn't like you getting an advantage over his creature.
- Oh flipping hell I have been in campaigns with GM who do this crap and it is such a mood killer.

3) I know I was going to write something here, but I forgot what it was Damn it.

Anyways the best thing you can do is actually sit down, just the two of you and talk it over. Find out where the problem is and why. Make sure you tell him how you feel like with him doing this,, because if it affects you negatively then you have to damn well speak up! if you come to an agreement with him (maybe) learning from this and actually trying to improve himself, well then score! He is trying to get better! if not... then I say leave the table.
I mean 2 years with this? You should have been out there way earlier and tell him what you think (of course in a calm and grown up manner), instead of dragging yourself through the mud like this. Roleplaying is meant to be fun for all, and if you´re not feeling it then it´s not worth playing it.

TL;DR?
Talk to him about it, just the two of you.
If he changes and improves himself; stay.
If he continues doing this crap: Leave.
Don´t kill your own joy of roleplaying by bending over and accepting his rules, when you can talk about it and perhaps find a solution.¨

*takes off fancy tophat*


Muad'Dib wrote:

Nice illustration!

If you can make room I'd add some sort of dog treats, bone, chew toy or maybe a bowl strapped to the saddle.

What about the flag? Paw print or some dog related crest.

Great stuff evil diva

Probably not a paw print on the banner, since it´s suppose to be a banner to represent her order. But dog toys and treats could be a really great thing to add! Didn´t even think about that :D

Thanks! And thanks for the compliment, haha :D


Hello there, fellow nerds!
It´s not often I post on the Paizo board in general, but sometimes I do need some response, and today is one of those days.
Okay I have been working on a character for a new Pathfinder campaign (sometime in the future). I´ve had the idea for a good long time and I have also drawn her, but what I need help with is adding details to the drawing. I have only added a very few things because I need ideas and that´s where you guys come in.

She is a Halfling Cavalier on her dire Corgi and I need some good ideas to add to the picture, just to add some more flavor to it. The drawing is still a WIP, hence why some things are shaded, some are not, and yadda yadda yadda, you get the idea.
So any ideas to what could be added? Nothing too big, tho and preferably things an adventurer would carry, like the water skin in the Corgi and the little dagger. Yeah those sort of thing
The link is listed below and I can´t wait to hear from you guys.

Seraphine and Reginald.

Have a great day :D


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But TV tropes is the most valid source of information on the internet!
What shall we do without TV Tropes? If TV Tropes is evil, then I shall become a priest of TV Tropian belief.
Clearly Nearyn is Four Eyes No Soul and Beard Of Evil.


I'll ban anyone’s ass. I'll ban your ass. I'll ban your dog’s ass. I'll ban my own ass.


Ohohoh this really depends on what makes the GM cry. I have never tried a "make you GM cry" moment, but I have experienced several moments with a certain GM of mine (or former), who was beyond anything a control freak. He hated it when his players didn't do as he wanted them to; when the road said go right, we decided to burrow down and tunnel our ways instead (not really, but you get the idea). If your character was stronger than what he threw at you, he would get irritated, because you killed his encounter super easy. So he wasn't all that fun to play with. He was all too strict for us to make the campaign fun.
I have played on the same team as people who really know how to optimize the out the wazoo.

But yeah, this GM just couldn't handle it if we, as his players, strayed just a teensy bit from what he had written should happen that particular day... And in all honesty a GM like that kills the fun in playing a campaign.

As said before I am sorry that I can't contribute with a character build that made my GM(s) cry. Either I simply can´t remember, or I honestly didn't know the character was optimized.


From my own personal experience; Rise of the Runelords.
It´s a great campaign that take your wee hand, helps you through your first baby steps to becoming an adventure, and then it hurdles you through some epic adventures, nasty experiences and grand happenings. I have been playing this campaign for almost two years now and I love it! We're halfway through book 6 and I have never, in my 10+ as a roleplayer, experienced anything THIS awesome.


In my humble opinion it´s a matter of perspective. Some are probably obsessed finding the most obscure books to make the most odd characters, just for the thrill of it, and to shock their fellow party members. Others, like the party I am in, well we just shrug, accept it and work with whatever stuff our GM allows us to use.


Thank you all for the input, it really means alot and it´s helped me quite abit in forming here.

I actually wanted to show the picture I drew of her.
I´m trying to find some more things to add along the way, but for now I need to take a little break from it.

Seraphine and Sir Reginald.


Oh gosh! Thanks alot for the quick response.
I have actually taking all of this into consideration and went with a small size Cavalier. I had intended for her to be human at first, but I could see the better idea of having her as a small folk than human.
Luckily enough my GM allowed me to get a mount I have been trying hard to get on another scenario, a dire Corgi.

This thread had been such a huge help to me, so to you sir, I say thank you. Any last things you think I should take into consideration?
I'm currently going to go on a shopping spree with her.


Greetings and salutations, good people of the Paizo Forum.

This is the first real thread I have ever made despite being a member for two years now. But I have never really felt like I had anything to say, until now.

I would like some good advices on playing a Cavalier. You see I´m going to be playing on the Curse Of The Crimson Throne campaign and I am a little unsure as to how I should play her. I already have her personality down, it´s more in terms of making a good a solid build; What to do, what NOT to do, what to take into consideration and the likes.
Things I would like advice with is
Placing of stats, Weapons, Armor, Skills, Feats, and such.
My idea is that she´s suppose to be a tank, since she´s going to be part of the Order Of The Blue Rose (So violence is a no no, unless it´s really needed of her). I'm normally a range DPS type build, so having to play a tank is a whole different world to me.

Hope to hear from you soon.
And thanks in advance.


With all respect towards the GM. I know him too since I´ve had him as a GM to for several years. He was one of the first people to teach Nearyn and I how to even play PnP RP. The man is a nice enough person but he does have a tendency to really protect his NPC´s and the likes. It´s something he had done before and he seems to get somewhat defensive when people point it out. Now with that said he´s a nice man, and a fairly good GM, he just has this little quirk.

He has a weird tendency to make some of his NPC´s (in his own home made campaigns) awfully strong compared to what their level should be, like the crazy strong bartender or town militia, Nearyn knows what I´m talking about. He´s a man who doesn´t like to loose control, neither as a GM nor a player on anyone´s campaigns and I guess that´s why he does it, truth be told.

I have the greatest respect for the man but sometimes when he does this I get awfully annoyed over it.


So I just talked to the monk player, she said that her monk ment it as a joke towards Lorastine.

The problem is just that the monk isn't really good a jokes, and her way of being often leaves a very undefined line between her being serious and her joking. So people, more than often, can't really see the difference between those two things.

So I would say that Lorastine can only see it as an offense towards her, since the monk didn't say "It was a joke Lorastine" and Lorastine wouldn't have gotten so angry, had she known it was a joke.
She's oly been with the group for some months and the girl who plays the monk thinks that my character knows her character really well, simpu because of the knowing eachother for some months.
We haven't played at all where we talked about our families either i og outside the game, which is why I am let to belive Lorastine couldn't possible have see it as a joke.

She understands that Lorastine didn't catch the joke, and that her monk upbrinning have a huge influence in her way around other races and her social awkwardnes.
But hey, that'll lead to some roleplaying possibilites of them getting to know eachother better :D


I'll always make sure to take things over with the DM since he is my boyfriend, and whenever I'm in doubt I always ask him for advice, just to make sure I don't ruin anything for others (i've played with people who only did what they did to piss others off and make it hard to continue the game)
But I think the "rub it in her face" "tricks" an "formal complaint" is the way to go :)
lorastine WOULD f&~% her s#&+ up, if she WASN'T a part of the party, but she knows' shell loose her contract with her party and therefor a good way to earn some cash.


Odraude wrote:
Well, this went to a dark place fast...

Oh I see what you did there.

Hahah, nah I know it's not only men who can feel pain down there, the reason to the correction was because Quatar called her a him :)
If I had the strenght I could break her pubic bone, buuuttt.... 9 str, yeah good luck man!
Aaaaanyway... rubbing it in her face when she does something horribly bad would be awesome. She has f~@@ed up a dozen of times.
Huehuehuehuehue! Revenge shall be sweet and her clothing wet with pee!


Ah I'm prettu sure the elf know's her own history, sorry for the horrible post befor, it wasn't really all that well written, was it?
I have knowledge local, but no ranks in it, so I belive that Lorastine don't know anything about the elf history.
The reason to why I don't have any ranks in it, is because I forgot (from the very start) to add it to her skill list, stupid me, and haven't had the chance to add any ranks yet, due to lac of level up, and I don't want to re-arrange her skills after she have leved up, so I'll wait to she gaines another level.


I often down play my abilities since I never feel as awesome as others do (just my personality) so when the elf monk pulls a whooping stat on stealth, perception and acrobatics I feel really... horrible and like Lorastine isn't really that amazing ans she should be :C
Anyway I guess I just have to face that Lorastine IS amazing and she CAN do some amazing stuff...
Although I can always mention how the elf f%%*ed up with the trapped chest, the halfnaked bug-bear and

Spoiler:
the erotic drawings of her in a Foxglove's diary (huehuehuehuehuehue!)

Problem is that nobody in our group know that drows exist, so it wouldn't really work sadly :/
Also Lorastine wouldn't know the story about the elf's fleeing to another planet.

The alertness part... well... I don't even remember why I bought it in teh first place, hahah XD


I hope so for wow I go really mad at her.
I often feel very weak when I can't use the bow and when I have to resort to my dagger I can do s@+!.
She is ment to be at a range of her enemies and shoot at them, not be all up their head and stabby stabby them til they die.
But I belive our monk would just be like "okay *shrug*" if I mention her failurs, since the person who plays her IS like that.
She often play herself rather then her character in rolesplay.
And those sort of things don't really seem to bother her, not the keeping score thing at least.
She would propably just ignore it :/


hahaha I guess I need something a little more... potent XD
btw it's a female, not a male monk :)
But the formal complaint is just amazing, that cracked me up so bad XD
and the last one... ooooh yes, could be something Lorastine would do, hahaha :D


I know she's got mobility, and she's got some sort of style and don't know more about her than that... I don't go and look at other peoples character sheets, since we, for the most part, have our sheets on the computers and use maptool and she normally sits opposit of me.

My stats are:
Str: 9
Dex: 20
Con: 9
Int: 11
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

Feats:
Alertness.
Rapid Shot.
Point Blank shot.
Improved Initiative.
Weapon Focus: Short Bow.
Improved uncanny dodge.
Deadly Aim.


Hi here's the deal, we had just had a major encounter and we didn't win but the encounter withdrew back to it's layer and we were left bruised and badly wounded (well most of us)
I play a hafling rogue (wow how cliché!) and all of a sudden my hafling and the elven monk start to talk, I don't remember HOW it all happend now, but the monk manages to say to my rogue "Well at least I do more in the heat of battle than you do"

Now my hafling is a hired hero in this party and she even have a contract with them (all of the memebers of the party do) and she is very proud of who and what she is, plus she is very... ehm... full of herself.
Now I played how I would, compared to how she is and how she feels about herself.. So I played it like she got angry and felt like a stupid elf insulted her and her job as the party's rogue.

But what should I do from here?
The elf just looked down at her and didn't really seem to care to have insulted her honor and job.

What would you guys do? I can't stab her since she is a member of the party and she would propably be kicked out for killing her.
But Lorastine (my rogue) is really proud of her job and class, so getting spit in the face like that lit her fuse towards the elf.
Normally they are pretty okay friends and this is the first time she has insulted her like that.
Also the elf has a tendecy to call both me and the other hafling (who is a Keep Lord, all of the party members are lord and ladies of Fort Rannick, but we decided to make the bard the main lord of the keep) "little buddy" while patting us on the head (which for me is also insulting to our race)

So... input and advice are really appreciated :)


blackbloodtroll wrote:
If we ignore 8 Red Wizards comments, we can all move on.

^ this, all my love, hahaha :'D


8 Red Wizards wrote:
evil_diva wrote:

@8 red wizards

as a player at nearyn's table I had to make an account if only to respond to this.

I would go ahead and say you clearly don't know Nearyn and that you are making unfair assumptions.

He didn't get the least bit upset with the Inquisitor during the session, I should know I was playing the rogue.

And to say that he is only posting here to get a pat on the shoulder is just stupid.

As said before he more than often post in here because he knows that alot of the people in here can actually come with creative suggestions and he really appreciate it because it helps him to become a better GM and to make the stories much more vivid, colcorful, dynamic and alive.

I am saddened by your behavior.
And I am stading up for him since I find himto be a great GM (and player) who has a huge interest in his players, the world we play in and to make sure we get the best experiense trough the story. we've been RPG buddies for almost 10 years now and even after 10 years you learn something new every day :)

(sorry if I've made some horrible miss-spellings and so)

There is no good creative suggestion when the DM screws the player on a Whim, and saying that inquisitor was to prideful so I should strip his powers is what a bad DM does.

If a lawful good paladin said "MY GOD WILL GIVE ME THE POWER TO SMITE YOU!!!" would you strip his powers for boasting about his god giving him smite evil to smite an evil guy. Essentially that is the exact samething the Paladin is boasting about a power that his god either will give him or has giving him. It was a bad call and while I understand the DM is your friend which is how it should be. Your DM was very wrong in this case, and shows his inexperience.

Also if you could actually get the Inquisitor player to post on these boards saying he totally agrees with his DM's call to strip his powers for saying a quick line of pride in what his DM will give him eventually. Pride being his Deity portfolio. Than I would drop my jaw in shock...

I'm not agreeing not disagreeing with what he did to the Inquisitor, that's not at ALL what my post was about.

It was about you treating Nearyn like an utter idiot and downing him alot and instead of just downing him you should instead give him a break and keep it all clean :)

Nearyn is just trying to get alot of you to re-read the post so you might get a better understand of what he did, instead of just going with the first assumption of him being a bad GM on account of ONE mistake he may or may NOT have commited, just saying :)

I know that alot of his posts can make one go TL;DR (I've playes board MMO's with him so I should know, haha)
But I think alot of what people read get's lost in translation due to his posts being a wall of text for the most part.
Hell I've even miss-read some of his posts as well at times, but I i rea-read them again I often see what he actually ment.

I Don't know if you will take my words it, or just go with your own thoughts about Nearyn, but again I think you should give him a break and be a little nicer :)

(again sorry for miss-spellings)


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Greetings to all on this board :D
Hi there.
I would like to introduce myself to you guys befor I start writing a whole lot, but I am the person who is playing Lorastine (the Rogue) on Nearyn's team and as you can read from what he wrote I was an active part of the session last time.

I would just like to say that no Nearyn didn't at all get upset with the Inquisitor's choise of word or how he acted the whole sequence out infront of him, as a GM.

Now Nearyn is an all honesty a really fair GM. If he thinks we are about to do something horribly wrong he often looks at us very sayingly and asks us if we REALLY do want to undfold our actions.

Not only that, he is also a person who loves to get the input from others on how he ran his session each time, and that is why he turn to you amazing guys here on the Paizo froum, to gaine knowledge and to become a better GM, by asking for your guys input and comments :)

@8 red wizards

as a player at nearyn's table I had to make an account if only to respond to this.

I would go ahead and say you clearly don't know Nearyn and that you are making unfair assumptions.

He didn't get the least bit upset with the Inquisitor during the session, I should know I was playing the rogue.

And to say that he is only posting here to get a pat on the shoulder is just stupid.

As said before he more than often post in here because he knows that alot of the people in here can actually come with creative suggestions and he really appreciate it because it helps him to become a better GM and to make the stories much more vivid, colcorful, dynamic and alive.

I am saddened by your behavior.
And I am stading up for him since I find himto be a great GM (and player) who has a huge interest in his players, the world we play in and to make sure we get the best experiense trough the story. we've been RPG buddies for almost 10 years now and even after 10 years you learn something new every day :)

(sorry if I've made some horrible miss-spellings and so)