aiglos's page

I was inspired by the Player's Guide to expand one of the prologue adventures into a full adventure.

So here's A Night At Valdemar Manor a prologue adventure for Seven Dooms for Sandpoint.

Nice adventure!

I was wondering if you could do the same for the voyage to Sandpoint for a party that have never been to Sandpoint. It would be great if it was for a 4th Level party who have just completed Rusthenge!

As in the title!

They learnt to use a shield in basic fighter training. Others must pay a feat for that.

The Bastard sword is a nice weapon, if it would have the same features than longsword and greatsword, costing the same, who then would use any other?
Is a weapon that let's you have a free hand when required (like grabbing), and change to greater damage die with a single action. There must be some tradeoff.

I am not talking about the mechanics of Shield Block, which are fine IF you want to use a Shield. I am talking about the fact that the Feat is USELESS fOR some 80% of Fighters, yes, USELESS!

There was a similar thread to this awhile back, and I may be echoing the sentiments from there, but I believe it boiled down to this: "You can't expect PF2 to play like PF1."

What I mean is, PF2 looks to reward "wide" play - giving players a plethora of options that can be very situationally useful. This means that you won't always get the "most efficent" use out of your choices. You may have feats that don't get used as often as others or have class features that you never touch.

In PF1, it was common to trade away everything that didn't contribute to the one thing you did to the best of your ability. We had alternate racial traits to winnow away the "useless" skill feats, favored classes, and fairly set feat progression. That's not to say that these were bad, but just that you shouldn't expect that same mentality in PF2.

I am not asking PF2 to play like PF1, because it doesn't at all. However I DO ASK IT TO MAKE SOME SENSE! Shield Block will probably NEVER be used by 80% of Fighter Builds, not rarely like other choices of other classes.

I have just bought the Remastered Core Rules & GM's guide and am severely disappointed!

I was hoping for a couple of changes but of course was disappointed!

Why is Shield Block still a starting Feat for a Fighter, when it is only useful if you are not using two handed weapons, two weapons or single handed weapon and free hand?

Likewise Bastard Sword is still the only straight bladed sword or knife that doesn't have Versatile. Also the cost makes no sense either, four times the cost of a long sword or twice the cost of a Great Sword!

Ultimate cities available now on PDF!

That other thread is useful for way to make the Kingdom level faster but isn't helpful at all to anyone who actually wants to try and use Events for XP as written.

James Jacob's post basically said just don't worry about Kingdom XP and have the Kingdom match the Party's level.

You are not wrong, so you have a choice:

1. Wait for an official errata to come out, and hope the Kingdom XP are better explained and shown.

2. Use the ideas in the other Thread and try and mitigate the problems in the Kingdom Building rules until your Kingdom gets to 3rd or 4th Level. This may make the Event XP not being properly shown less of a problem.

3. Make up your own Kingdom XP for each event!

Not a great choice, I know!

You might also want to take a look at the thread started prior to your threads, where James Jacombs, the Paizo Creative Director, and a major contributor to the Kingmaker project said the following

James Jacobs wrote:

Perhaps the easiest solution is to simply have the kingdom auto level up to the party's level—this puts the pacing of the game squarely back on the PCs' progression and doesn't "force" a GM to take in-game years off to have the players play through several kingdom turns. Unless, of course, that's something your group is into! :)

That thread already has a lot of discussion about this very issue.

I am not sure what James Jacobs was saying here! To me it seems to be saying that the Kingdom in the Background option is the best one for most people? Completely ignoring Kingdom XP in favour of PC XP doesn't solve the problems in the Kingdom Building rules themselves, and takes PC's back to the Empire in an Afternoon scenario.

I am hoping this answer was just James Jacobs answering Forum posts at the end of a long and difficult week!

Having read and digested the Adventure over the weekend, several things have become clear:

1. By the time the Kingdom gets to the Kundal (Werewolf) encounter, the Kingdom needs to be at least 3rd level, if not 4th. The assumptions in the rest of chapter 4 mean the Kingdom must be 4th level. In fact the assumption throughout the book seems to be that the Kingdom should never drop below one level below the PC's, and should in fact be equal.

2. To get to a 4th level Kingdom will probably need to take at least 5 or more Kingdom years, with the Kingdom XP awards as written, although the Kingdom XP awards from Events are not clear as others have pointed out.

3. The Influence section for Farmland, makes no sense in any shape at all. It effectively makes Farmland and the Agriculture skill, largely useless before the Kingdom gets to 3rd Level!

There are a few solutions I would recommend:

1. Until the Kingdom gets to 4th Level, leftover RP gain 10 Kingdom XP, not 1.

2. Villages have 0 Consumption as the one square mile cleared for them will provide more than enough land to feed them, until the Village turns into a Town.

or

3. The Capital settlement can expand into a town before 3rd Level, but it is the only settlement that can, and must follow the rules for creating towns. This only applies to it becoming a town. It becomes a City or better at its normal Level.

1 and 3 are my recommended solutions, as they speed up the play of the game, will keep players interested in Kingdom and Settlement building, and make Farmland and the Agriculture skill relevant before 3rd Level.

Iirc the 1e AP did give you BP, so I'm surprised to hear 2e gives nothing. Seems like an oversight?

Not just an oversight. Without the adventure itself it is difficult to get a full picture, however two things come to mind:

1. There seems to be NOTHING that would seem to make the PC's want to support Restov, apart from one or two of the Backgrounds. Aroden help Restov if the majority of the party are Surtovan Bastards or from an Issian background. No support from Restov except a limp charter, of dubious or spurious legality, which the Surtovans, Ludovkans, Pitax and Mivon are never going to recognise anyway!

2. The Kingdom rules in the PC supplement may scare an awful lot of people off, from using the Kingdom Building rules at all. Playing a full year of Kingdom development may have most groups screaming for an outside trip after about three months of Kingdom building. I estimate that most groups will take about 3-4 three hour sessions to do the first years Kingdom building, assuming there are not major arguments about the direction of the Kingdom. Personally my starting idea for the best mechanical Charter and Government are Conquest and Despotism and that is bound to lead to arguments! The first edition could be time consuming, particularly at later levels, but these rules are far more complicated, and the wrong starting choices could have players quickly going to Kingdom in the background or multiple resets! It is crying out for a Kingdom Building computer program. A simple spread sheet will probably not cut it!

4th Level. As for getting any resources, there is nothing at either the end of Chapter 3 or the beginning of Chapter 4 about the PCs getting any resources besides the charter. There is also nothing in the appendix with the Kingdom Building rules, either. It looks like the only benefit to having Restov's support is the Charter itself, save for the Open charter.

It would not be unreasonable for you to rule that Restov provides some limited material support, such as 1 of each commodity or one or two bonus resource dice for the first couple of kingdom turns.

So, in all honesty, getting the charter from Restov, is no more use than getting a degree in "Underwater Basket Weaving" by post? Looks like Restov just created another Bandit Kingdom!

Let's hope that Dudemeister is already rewriting the VENTURE CAPITAL rules from the 1st edition Kingmaker.

The Rot Grub "The Rules Lawyer" wrote:

So long as I might have the team's ear, did the team have a chance to playtest these rules and see how long it would take to reach 3rd level? And the adventure says to let the players get more kingdom turns to get the kingdom level to at least 2 levels below the party's level (preferably closer even). I was surprised that Farmlands are closed off at the beginning, as that runs counter to my years of playing Civilization-type games.

If you find that it's taking too long to level up the kingdom, feel free to increase the XP rewards—one good way to do so might be to increase the XP granted for leftover RP to be 10 XP per 1 RP. You can also just award large story XP for the PCs as they go, or even just abandon the Kingdom XP system and have it auto level up to match the party's level. That last method is the best solution if you find that your players are frustrated with the rate the kingdom is growing XP.

As for a playtest... not really, alas. I did the best I could with a bit of help here and there, but the development of the entire project was mostly just me.

I can understand the reason for this, but agree with the writer of the post. One twelve mile hex in theory has 124.7 square miles of territory. Even if only 10% was usable for agriculture, that would be the equivalent to 7980 acres, enough for 7980 families in theory to feed themselves! Personally I think the one mile square area of a city grid would be more than enough land to feed a village. Personally I would say that villages should not have a consumption cost as they are generally small enough to feed themselves!

Secondly, the Consumables cost for buildings mean that unless you start in a forest hex, or purchase commodities, even one block of houses is off limits, I must admit that without the full game in front of me, the kingdom building rules in the players guide leave me not hopeful that this will be playable, without a separate computer program for kingdom building. I am hoping the game has some way for the kingdom to start off with at least some commodities?

Ultimate Campaign changed matters considerably.

Hex improvements, such as mines, sawmills, and quarries are all musts, as they each provide a BP per turn. Sawmills are incredibly cheap at 3BP each, but you can't have them with a farm.

Ultimate Rulership is also useful, because it has further useful variant rules and buildings.

Trade Edicts are also a must. We gained one in the first year and after that BP were never really a problem.

In the end our kingdom took over not only Pitax, but also Mivon, Brevoy and the Sellen Hills of Numeria.

Further to my earlier post, a few more ideas:

The encounters from the first three books should mostly be about the denizens of the stolen lands being more proactive about internal and external threats.

In the case of book four it should be a full scale invasion of the Tiger Lords into the Hooktongue area, coupled with an expansion of the Boggards in the Slough under Nyrissa's influence. This will pusgh many of the monster encounters from the Slough into the path of the PC's. Lady Quintessa Maray should be Irrovetti's agent in Fort Drelev, and it was her idea to hire mercenaries from Pitaz to "protect" Drelev from the Tiger Lords. Thus Irrovetti's takeover looks much more benign, if it is obvious at all. That way the betrayal at the tournament in Book 5 should be a complete surprise to the PC's. This way the encounters make a lot more sense and are a lot more powerful for PC's who may be riding with small or even large armies.

The Tiger Lords should be and be seen to be a serious threat to both the PC's and Irrovettis kingdoms.

As usual Pennywit has the right ideas:

Encounters should either show how wild the Stolen Lands are OR show how the Stag Lord and Hargulka have taken over like a 10th Century Robber Barons. This would also give a new dimension to the Sword Lords pushing into the Stolen Lands, because there southern border is actually threatened. Personally I would remove the debilitating conditions from the Stag Lord to make him tougher. The Bandits should all be tougher, particularly the Lieutenants, with Akiros being the weak link still. Perhaps there should be prior hints that one of Staggies henchmen is looking to go solo or defect?

Also the friendly fey should probably point out the unusuallness of things to do with Nyrissa, like the Dead Unicorn, even though they do not know who is doing it.

Likewise Hargulka is the Robber Baron in Book 2. Dudemeister covered this best. It will then show the Stolen Lands is not a vacuum but useful real estate that others value. Not one monster per encounter but multiple monsters. Three or four trolls with hobgoblin archer and shaman support will worry PC's and give them an idea of the trouble that Hargulka is. A real monster kingdom!

Similarly Vordakai in Book 3 should be played the same way, with encounters being more along the lines of multiple undead. In some cases enough to really worry even powerful PC's. Fifty or sixty skeletons with Undead Cyclops and an undead mage.

All this will mean bringing in the Army rules in at least three books earlier. Perhaps scaling them for each part of the AP.

I would actually take out the tournament altogether for the reasons Pennywit has said, and instead move it to the Outlaw council in Daggernmark. By that stage the PCs kingdom should certainly been invited and Irrovettis sudden disappearance or non appearance should give a taste of what is to come. Also by then most PC groups will have an east way to get back home quickly, at 13th level.

1. First of all, anything by Dudemeister, Pennywit or Red Kelt!
2. Venture capital is a must!The more Deals with the Devil the better.
3. Anything from the Ultimate series of supplements.
4. Get rid of most of the optional encounters from Book 3 onwards unless they can be better tied into the game.
5. More detail on Brevoy (perhaps whole appendix!) and its reaction to the fledgling kingdoms in the Stolen Lands, and what would happen if the Brevoy and the PC's go to war or the PC's get involved in a civil war in Brevoy.
6. Detail on Mivon and its reaction to the PC's kingdom reaching Mivons northern border.
7. Detail on incorporating Pitax, Mivon and perhaps Brevoy into the PC's kingdom, including BP, unrest etc.
8. Reaction of other River Kingdoms to the PC's kingdom. When do the PC's kingdom (size etc) get invited to the Outlaw council in Daggermark?
9. More on Candlemere Island!
10. Possible tie ins to other Paizo products that could / should be incorporated into Kingmaker (see 9 above!).
11. Much better foreshadowing of the BBEG and greater Fey involvement in the campaign.
12. Much better hex map showing Stolen Lands, Brevoy, Pitax and Mivon, Touvette etc.
13. As the PC's kingdom gets bigger, possible diplomatic approaches, offers of marriage etc from neighbouring states, kingdoms etc. Doubly so if Venture Capital is used.
14. Update Varnhold so that it is actually able to survive as a Kingdom, and give details on Drelev's domain possibly before and after the attack by the Tiger Lords and Pitax.
15. Update the Campaign Traits.
16. This might be heresy but make this anniversary edition of Kingmaker for Pathfinder 2nd edition.

I wish people would use the correct terminology! What you have in Taldor, according to Crystal Fraser, is strict SALIC LAW, whereby a woman can never inherit lands or titles in any form at any time. Considering that the First Prince is a paranoid Misogynist it seems highly unlikely that there would be so many women in Taldor in positions of power if strict Salic Law was applied. What the Senate was debating in the first part of the AP, was in fact the move from strict Salic Law to Primogeniture!

If the writers are doing the Players Guides in their own free time, then that has to stop! It is always a bad mistake for all concerned as I know from my own business. Give anybody a freebie and they will expect it every time and will want more inevitably. I would rather pay for the Players Guide, knowing that the writer is being properly paid for their contributions and that the product will arrive on time as a result. The mistake is referencing the Guide so heavily at the start of the AP. If it isn't essential then you don't reference it, if it is then you produce it on time, free or not. That is simply good marketing!

Considering that the first scene explicitly mentions the campaign traits as part of the scene, then if they are not sorted by now, then something has been badly mis-planned. Unfortunately it seems that everybody at Paizo seems to be concentrating on the 2nd edition and meanwhile the 1st edition stuff is being mishandled, including this website. They shouldn't have released the first installment if the Players Guide wasn't ready, particularly if the traits are explicitly referenced in the first part. That is bad product management! A delay until the Players Guide was sorted out would have been more acceptable.

I have recently bought both Horror Adventures and the Villain Codex on a whim. However both seem to be perfect for Kingmaker.

From the Horror Adventures, I would use a mixture of Dark Fantasy and Gothic Horror to spice up Kingmaker. If you include Carnival of Tears, Realm of the Fellnight Queen, and Courts of the Shadow Fey, and play them for Gothic Horror, it will only add to the fun. Whether you want to make the Stolen Lands cursed by Nyrissa may be a step too far but would be interesting. Perhaps the PC's have to find some cursed items in Book 1 culminating in the Stag Lords Fort to free their part of the Stolen Lands from the Curse. Each part of the Stolen Lands has it's own part of the curse, although Varnhold was already cursed by the presence of Vordacai. Book 3 is perfect for horror as is Book 4 if you make the Tiger Lords particularly vicious and gruesome.

As an example of what you could do, the opening scene at Olegs could actually start as the players arrive at the gates. The bandits are already there and are tasking Svetlana as a slave, because business has been slow and Oleg does not have the money for a few days. The Stag Lord could be a slaver as well as a bandit. I would replace Nugrah the Discrepit with the Experimenter from the Villain Codex to make the Fort even more horrific.

I would also use the Syndicate idea from the Villain codex to show how desperate things have got in Rostland. It would make the start of Book 2 much more interesting! The Regal Court could also be used for Nolski Surtova and his court, with his ambitious sister as the Queen. This would give a whole new political element to the game if you want to include some Brevoy politics.

How about a Mythic Campaign in which the players have to stop the "Whispering Tyrant" from coming back. Based in Ustalev, Lastwall and the Hold Of Belkzen

It could also be done as a Mythic Kingmaker campaign as above, starting off in the politics of Ustalev, building a nascent kingdom in one of those three states, before a finale of a massive attack from the Orcs of Belkzen at the command of the Whispering Tyrant, with the players only hope to confront him in Gallowspire, to save both their own state, Ustalev and Last Wall.

I see Falcons Hollow growing up around Olegs but the Lumbar Consortium now do not like Olegs independence. So they decide to use Kressles band to put pressure on Oleg, with Kressle doing a bit of moonlighting independently from the Stag Lords business. This where the PC's arrive.

After the PC's have dealt with both Kressle and the Stag Lord and have been given their charter by the Sword Lords, I can see the Lumbar Consortium reacting badly to the PC's new kingdom. Particularly if the PC's have not agreed to allow the Lumbar Consortium all logging rights in the Narlmarches in exchange for extra starting Build Points (Read Bribe!). With the PC's based out of the Stag Lords old fort as recommended in the game, the Lumbar Consortium may set up their own rival 'kingdom' based out of Falcon's Hollow, similar to Dudemeisters 'Monster Kingdom'.

This might be particularly interesting for GMs who want to challenge experienced PCs. With Cold War between the Lumbar Consortium advancing into the Narlmarches and the PCs advancing from the Kamelands. Even more interesting if you have a 'Hargulka Monster Kingdom' further to the south. A really political game from the start, especially if the Lumbar Consortium call in their Surtova allies, if the PC Kingdom becomes too successful!

It has struck me that Falcons Hollow from the adventures "Hollows last hope", "Crown of the Kobold King", "Revenge of the Kobold King", and "Carnival of Tears" would make a great replacement for Olegs Trading Post. You could still have Olegs Trading post in the gap in the walls on right hand side of the town map. The town will be just outside Brevic jurisdiction, under Lumbar Consortium control.

The PC's could be tasked, as well as dealing with the bandits and mapping the area, by the Lumbar Consortium through the Swordlords, but also by the Swordlords to keep an eye on reported malpractice by the lumbar consortium. It will allow PC's to be exploring wilderness one minute, and playing politics in Falcons Hollow the next.

The dwarven monastery could be in the same hex as the gold mine, the dwarves not realising that their iron mine was only half a mile away from the fissure where the gold is. Likewise the foam river can be replaced by a sizeable lake fed by streams too small to see on the map, hence the name of Falcons Hollow. The symbol on the map for Olegs is actually the size of a lake 2 miles in diameter.

Likewise it will be interesting to have two tribes of Kobolds on the map, one wholly inimical, the other potentially more friendly. Will the PC's realise the difference or just slaughter the lot. When the PC's start to set up their kingdom thats when the Lumbar Consortium can become even more of an enemy, and the PC's can have fun trying to get the town into their kingdom without a massive fight with the Consortium.

If you set Carnival of Tears in Falcons Hollow and not the PC's capital, if the PC's manage to rid the town of the Fey with few casualties, even the Lumbar Consortium may have trouble stopping its people transferring their loyalty to the PC's own new state. This will allow for extreme politicking without having to create Brevoy from scratch, and using existing Paizo products. If I remember rightly the Lumbar Consortium was one the options if a GM wanted to get the PC's to bargain for some of their starting build points in another thread.

What do people think on the idea.