Player's guide?


War for the Crown

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I understand the complications with getting the player's guide out, is there really no way to get at least the campaign traits out earlier? I won't run without the player's guide for a number of reasons, but I don't want to disappoint my players either. The traits are the most important to my table, though.


I would also like to see the campaign traits released please. We are waiting on this information before we start and we're ready to start!

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Cheap lawsuits!

Did your gaming company fail to deliver a free* player's guide on time?

Is there negligence involved? Damages?

You're sitting there thinking "I'm powerless against this evil. I am a true fan who spent a lot of time torrenting all the stuff and using d20pfsrd (because you think only sad people actually spend money on things you can get for free - and boy are you right about this one!) and here they are, sitting there in that godforsaken Seattle, spitting out excuses, failures and shortcomings."

But you're not powerless.

You've seen my billboards? You've heard my ad on KFMGBNFVS radio? I'm here to help! And unlike all those ambulance chasers out there, I offer a fair deal, 15% up front.

Just call 666-000-JUSTICE today and I'll handle the rest.

* and don't believe that "free" thing, your bandwidth, your time, your gratitude, those things ain't free my son!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

KFMGBNFVS radio?
LOL! Is that FM or AM? And just what kind of programming is on that channel? HAHA

Grand Lodge

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
theLegend76 wrote:

KFMGBNFVS radio?

LOL! Is that FM or AM? And just what kind of programming is on that channel? HAHA

Polka.

All day, every day.

-Skeld


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I'll have to agree with the bag on this one . . . This is a free product that they hand to us out of the kindness of their heart. Let's not get too carried away people. I know that we all have games we want to play. Patience is the word of the day. Let's maintain, and they'll get it to us when they get it to us.

Until then: Relax. (That's the word of the day for tomorrow.)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Meh just do what I did and not bother with the guide seems most the traits wouldent have worked for my party anyway (Bunch of lesser nobles and there guards)


Gorbacz wrote:
I'm here to help! And unlike all those ambulance chasers out there, I offer a fair deal, 15% up front.

"We ONLY get paid... up front!"


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gorbacz wrote:

Cheap lawsuits!

Did your gaming company fail to deliver a free* player's guide on time?

Is there negligence involved? Damages?

You're sitting there thinking "I'm powerless against this evil. I am a true fan who spent a lot of time torrenting all the stuff and using d20pfsrd (because you think only sad people actually spend money on things you can get for free - and boy are you right about this one!) and here they are, sitting there in that godforsaken Seattle, spitting out excuses, failures and shortcomings."

But you're not powerless.

You've seen my billboards? You've heard my ad on KFMGBNFVS radio? I'm here to help! And unlike all those ambulance chasers out there, I offer a fair deal, 15% up front.

Just call 666-000-JUSTICE today and I'll handle the rest.

* and don't believe that "free" thing, your bandwidth, your time, your gratitude, those things ain't free my son!

Testimonial: Gorbacz helped me get my entire deposit back for the last free product that was late. He even gave me a generous discount on his fee when I mentioned this ad!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And Steve Geddes is not a paid actor. LOL


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While yes, it is sort of a free product, it's free in the way that when you buy a car, the keys come with it free. But if they delay getting the keys to you by several weeks, it means you can't use your car for that time, and there's actually an issue.

Which is why a good quick-fix would be to release the traits in some kind of post. They have to be finalized at this point, since the printed book mentions and considers them, and there aren't really any excuses vis-a-vis downstream production issues which could get in the way. Would also let the people who paid for early access to the product, the adventure path subscribers - who are by all accounts the most loyal part of the fanbase - actually use the thing they got early.

In my car example above, this would be like giving them an old fashioned turn-key while the remote starter fancy key is still being manufactured. You lose some functionality temporarily, but you can at least get it started.


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I honestly always considered the Player's Guide to be functionally an advertisement for the adventure path. As in "if you want to know if the new Adventure Path is up your alley, here's a free taste." All APs are perfectly playable without campaign traits or an official briefing, after all.

I don't consider "Paizo hasn't been able to advertise this to me yet" to be a thing worth being concerned about.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Jack Stargazer wrote:

While yes, it is sort of a free product, it's free in the way that when you buy a car, the keys come with it free. But if they delay getting the keys to you by several weeks, it means you can't use your car for that time, and there's actually an issue.

Which is why a good quick-fix would be to release the traits in some kind of post. They have to be finalized at this point, since the printed book mentions and considers them, and there aren't really any excuses vis-a-vis downstream production issues which could get in the way. Would also let the people who paid for early access to the product, the adventure path subscribers - who are by all accounts the most loyal part of the fanbase - actually use the thing they got early.

In my car example above, this would be like giving them an old fashioned turn-key while the remote starter fancy key is still being manufactured. You lose some functionality temporarily, but you can at least get it started.

I’m not trying to dissuade you from your position (we all make our own choices about what’s a reasonable-expectation and what’s beyond-the-call-of-duty). However, it is worth knowing that “early access” isn’t a perk of the subscription - so anyone subscribing for that reason is making an error.

It turns out to be true that subscribers nearly always have their adventures before streetdate (or at least access to the PDF). However, that isn’t always the case and neither is it promised by Paizo as one of the benefits of subscribing.

Again - not saying you’re wrong, I just think this common misconception is worth mentioning when it comes up. Over the years I’ve seen a fair number of grumbles from subscribers complaining they didn’t get something they were never actually promised. I figure the best way to combat that is to clarify that early access isn’t a guaranteed perk (so one takes a risk scheduling a game based on assuming it is, for example).

Liberty's Edge

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The first adventure module lists the Campaign traits within it for that module and how they hook into the module. Players could take them based on the missions if a GM wishes, then when the Player's Guide comes out reveal the benefit or hindrance of the trait.

List of traits in book 1:

Athletic Champion
Taldan Patriot
Disgraced Noble
Senatorial Hopeful
Young Reformer
Rising Star


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Picking traits because the concept fits the idea of one's character, rather than because the bonus is useful, is almost ideal IMO.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

*nods*

While neat and very helpful, the Player’s Guide and their traits are not actually needed to run or even start the Campaign.

Dark Archive

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Well, teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeechnically, raw wise if you use traits and campaign has campaign traits, you HAVE to pick a campaign trait.

Also, best thing about campaign traits is flavor, so if you pick trait based on name whose flavor you don't know, you might be bit disappointed. The player's guide is supposed to help players making decisions that suit the campaign as well and as rest of the books haven't been released yet that means gm ain't able to give that advice either, so you can easily argue that while it isn't impossible to play without player's guide, you really shouldn't if you don't want to be blind sided by what you find in the ap.

That said, I'm still in the camp "Just don't run the campaign yet geez, wait at least half of the books are out if you are excited to start early. Or at least first two books!" so I don't really think its big deal paizo hasn't released it yet. I thought it was way more big deal that they decided to not release one at all for Dead Suns

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Uh, if the GMs don’t want to be blindsided... they can just read the AP.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
CorvusMask wrote:
Well, teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeechnically, raw wise if you use traits and campaign has campaign traits, you HAVE to pick a campaign trait.

Where is this stated.

Dark Archive

Just because they can read AP summary doesn't mean they can't get blindsided by role certain npcs play in next adventure or even location of adventure.

Like, Serpent's Skull and the factions in it is really easy example, espicially if players joined certain one :P

And on second post, Advanced Player's Guide:

"Campaign Traits
Campaign traits are specifically designed to tie your character into a campaign's storyline, and often give you a built-in reason to begin the first adventure. For this reason, GMs usually create their own campaign traits for their PCs. If your GM uses campaign traits, one of your starting traits must be a campaign trait. Your other trait can be chosen from one of the other types of traits."

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The Player's Guide for Serpent's Skull doesn't go over any of the factions in the AP nor does it prepare PCs for later events in the AP, and it also doesn't go over NPCs related to the AP (some Player's Guides do, but not all of them). It just gives them a reason for being on the boat at the very beginning.

The only way to not be blindsided by stuff is to read the AP itself, it wouldn't make much sense for the Player's Guide to spoil the story.

As for the Campatin Traits rule, hmm, that's interesting.

Dark Archive

Ah, I see you have misunderstood what I meant: I didn't mean that player's guide replaces need to read entire AP, I meant that if you absolutely have to start running ap before all parts are out, it does help players with creating appropriate characters for campaign in situation where gm is unable to do that due to not having had chance to read entire thing, so it is better than nothing.

(that said, there does exist really misleading player's guides. Mainly Reign of Winter one, winter witch isn't really good option in that ap :'D)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It might just be me, but I'd be wary of playing in an AP that the GM hasn't had to a chance to read yet. If you were referring to the entire AP and not just one part then my original point still stands, Player's Guides are for why your characters are there at the beginning, not who your characters are and will do for the entire story. The First AP has enough information in it for GMs to work with Players to make their characters and set them on a path.

(WW is very thematic for it, which is why it is mentioned, don't know how optimal it would be though)


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CorvusMask wrote:

Ah, I see you have misunderstood what I meant: I didn't mean that player's guide replaces need to read entire AP, I meant that if you absolutely have to start running ap before all parts are out, it does help players with creating appropriate characters for campaign in situation where gm is unable to do that due to not having had chance to read entire thing, so it is better than nothing.

(that said, there does exist really misleading player's guides. Mainly Reign of Winter one, winter witch isn't really good option in that ap :'D)

In fairness, a lot of that "misleading information" is usually put in there because they know people are gonna play Winter Witches, no matter how many times they say they shouldn't, so why not give advice on how to do that. :-)

Silver Crusade

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CorvusMask wrote:


(that said, there does exist really misleading player's guides. Mainly Reign of Winter one, winter witch isn't really good option in that ap :'D)

I think the worst is quite likely the one for The Crimson Throne. The tie ins have absolutely NOTHING to do with the Adventure Path as a whole

Spoiler:

they just tie in all the PCs to one minor villain who likely dies in the first session

There were quite a few groups who posted that their characters basically had absolutely no reason to participate in the adventure. They'd built a character according to the Guide but those characters had absolutely no reason to bond with and trust the random assortment of PCs in their group :-(.


I am quite BUMMED by this latest news, up to 2 weeks from now it could be before we see it!!!

I usually GM but for this one I searched and found a great group of players over at Roll20 to join me to play this, and found a GM to run it for us even :)

Session 0 is March 17th, session 1 is March 24th so with this news it is cutting it VERY close indeed.

Saving grace (I hope/if needed) if worst comes to worst is that Roll20's first roll out of this module March 18th said The Players guide for this will be included when buying the virtual module there.

But might this delay affect that as well?

I have 5 unhappy players(6 if including me, LOL) right now and a not so happy GM either.

At least they are keeping us informed in their own way but I thought the week of the PG writer being sick meant a weeks delay so I assumed we would see this the week after the street date release, IE this Thursday...

But it is what it is as real life stuff does happen and one delay (as was hinted) might just hit other things as well so even a further delay happens.

Lets hope for the best and it will be worth the wait!!

Tom


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Sub-Creator wrote:

I'll have to agree with the bag on this one . . . This is a free product that they hand to us out of the kindness of their heart. Let's not get too carried away people. I know that we all have games we want to play. Patience is the word of the day. Let's maintain, and they'll get it to us when they get it to us.

Until then: Relax. (That's the word of the day for tomorrow.)

That's all well and good, except that the AP itself, the one that isn't free, refers to information that's only in the player's guide. So if they don't have to get us the player's guide, then I'm going to say they should include complete information in the actual AP.

I think you'll find that many people are pretty relaxed, just mildly frustrated that they may have to let their players down for another week -- it never feels good to tell someone, "hey the game you've been looking forward to has to be postponed." In all my time DMing, it's never felt good, no matter how good the reason.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
glubtier wrote:
Sub-Creator wrote:

I'll have to agree with the bag on this one . . . This is a free product that they hand to us out of the kindness of their heart. Let's not get too carried away people. I know that we all have games we want to play. Patience is the word of the day. Let's maintain, and they'll get it to us when they get it to us.

Until then: Relax. (That's the word of the day for tomorrow.)

That's all well and good, except that the AP itself, the one that isn't free, refers to information that's only in the player's guide.

Not really, unless I missed something the only mention of the guide is in reference to the campaign traits and basically boils down to "This why your character is here/wants to go here.", which, the Traits help with but are not required.


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GM PDK wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
I'm here to help! And unlike all those ambulance chasers out there, I offer a fair deal, 15% up front.
"We ONLY get paid... up front!"

Works on contingency

No money down


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The Rising Phoenix wrote:
I would also like to see the campaign traits released please. We are waiting on this information before we start and we're ready to start!

Hmm, I found only one section in the first book where the campaign traits are relevant. This section mainly requires skill checks, so you could go with the following homebrew traits:

Athletic Champion: +1 to Escape Artist checks, becomes a class skill
Disgraced Noble: +1 to Bluff checks, becomes a class skill
Rising Star: +1 to Disguise checks, becomes a class skill
Senatorial Hopeful: +1 to influence checks
Taldan Patriot: +1 to Sense Motive and Perception when interacting with nobles
Young Reformer: +1 to Disable Device, becomes a class skill

These are not the offical campaign traits (and not terribly creative either). They will help the player to succeed at their mission, though. And you could exchange them with the official versions once they come it out.

Sovereign Court

dot

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Sub-Creator wrote:

I'll have to agree with the bag on this one . . . This is a free product that they hand to us out of the kindness of their heart. Let's not get too carried away people. I know that we all have games we want to play. Patience is the word of the day. Let's maintain, and they'll get it to us when they get it to us.

Until then: Relax. (That's the word of the day for tomorrow.)

Since the esteemed people working on this product are getting paid for it and the costs of the technical tools they use are also covered, then this product is not actually free as in not being covered by sales. Its price is paid for by the customers who buy the not-free Paizo products (subscribers being the frontliners for this)

In the end someone always pays for you to get a product


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Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Note how nobody is talking about the missing Player's Guide here any more. I smell a cover-up...

.
.
.

:-)


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lol... Pathfinder 2.0 is a TRAP! :)

Sovereign Court

Longest delay of player's guide I can recall.
Hope all is well.


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The only thing I really cared about the player's guide for as a player or GM was for the traits. I always read the rest of it, but didn't really care to follow the advice.

With that being said I wonder if we can bribe someone at Paizo to give us the traits before the book is released.

I'll pitch in $1.
:)


Strange it would take this long. Depending on what the benefits of something like Rising Star is, I might just opt to go for the Shahiyan (Prince/Princess) social trait instead for my noble ambassador character from Qadira.

Silver Crusade

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One suspects that the entire staff at Paizo is frantically working on Pathfinder 2.0 and everything else is taking a back seat.

Sigh


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pauljathome wrote:
One suspects that the entire staff at Paizo is frantically working on Pathfinder 2.0 and everything else is taking a back seat.

Various people have been pointing out for a while now that Paizo has seemed pretty distracted. This announcement has made a lot of other stuff click into place. Major construction project in progress, expect delays.

Doug M.

Sovereign Court

wraithstrike wrote:

The only thing I really cared about the player's guide for as a player or GM was for the traits. I always read the rest of it, but didn't really care to follow the advice.

With that being said I wonder if we can bribe someone at Paizo to give us the traits before the book is released.

I'll pitch in $1.
:)

I have a dollar I'll pitch in if it will help speed things up. :/


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Cylerist wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

The only thing I really cared about the player's guide for as a player or GM was for the traits. I always read the rest of it, but didn't really care to follow the advice.

With that being said I wonder if we can bribe someone at Paizo to give us the traits before the book is released.

I'll pitch in $1.
:)

I have a dollar I'll pitch in if it will help speed things up. :/

I'd pay like 10$ just for the campaign traits at this point.


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I can wait, I'll keep my dollar.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Don't understand the rush. Play it when the guide is out. There's a ton of other material to play in the meantime.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Delays sometimes aren't unexpected, but it's beginning to seem a bit off that the next book is about to go to subscribers and we're still waiting on the campaign traits almost a month after the normal release time, when they could have gone into a quick blog to tide wouldbe players over.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Samy wrote:
Don't understand the rush. Play it when the guide is out. There's a ton of other material to play in the meantime.

Partly expectations, I suspect.

The players guide is usually out by now so I can understand people planning a campaign start accordingly (although I’d always advise waiting until book 6, the pawns, associated sourcebooks, the map folio and anything else you might find useful is available).

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well then you can just play two books in a row without having to wait between installments.

Liberty's Edge

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The campaign traits, especially considering how tied they are to the first scene, could have at least been posted here for those who want to run it. My group is almost finished with book 1 at this point.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Could be they haven't finalized them. Knowing how old versions of things end up as ghosts on the Internet and often people link to old versions of things without realizing they've been changed -- it's probably wise not to post the traits until they're 100% sure they're not going to change anymore.


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Considering that the first scene explicitly mentions the campaign traits as part of the scene, then if they are not sorted by now, then something has been badly mis-planned. Unfortunately it seems that everybody at Paizo seems to be concentrating on the 2nd edition and meanwhile the 1st edition stuff is being mishandled, including this website. They shouldn't have released the first installment if the Players Guide wasn't ready, particularly if the traits are explicitly referenced in the first part. That is bad product management! A delay until the Players Guide was sorted out would have been more acceptable.


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I'd rather they wait until the player's guide is finished.

If you start encouraging them to only post the campaign traits as a blog post, then that's how they'll start releasing the player's guide, exclusively as a blog post. I don't know about you, but it's easier to find a PDF on my phone or computer then a) trying to find the Paizo blog, and 2) trying to find a specific post of the Paizo blog.

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