Xanatheus's page

All of the Masterpieces in UM and the bardic performances that are in the CRB.

I haven't been keeping up with all of the Masterpieces. I have only good knowledge of UM and CRB Bardic Performances. My question refers to those two books because that is the extent of my Masterpiece knowledge not for any other purpose. UM is also when Masterpieces were first introduced (unless I am mistaken) at least it was when Masterpieces when they were still new. RAW and RAI may have been quite farther apart than they are now.

I do not want to discuss things (in this case Masterpieces) I know little about. I can understand why someone would want to combine a Masterpiece and IC or other BP but I have little knowledge of the remaining 40+(?) Masterpieces.

I also noticed Masterpieces in UM are the first BP that have a duration other than round by round. I don't think that was a coincidence. Did the designers (specific to and only these) of the UM Masterpieces intend that the Masterpieces with a duration be as ineffective as they appear? Clunky I know.

I feel the same.

Both Cavall and Mark the designer agree the effects of a masterpiece end once another Bardic Performance is started. Go back up the page to August 17 for their replies.

In my opinion (not that, that amounts to anything), Masterpieces are specialized Bardic Performances and as a result have a unique relationship with other Bardic Performances. I'm going to push at my table that Masterpieces are not subject to the normal Bardic Performance rules. I ask again using just the UM and CRB what is the most egregious use of a Masterpiece and Bardic Performance at the same time? TT & IC?

I just noticed something about all of the Bardic Performances in the CRB. They all are round per round performances. Back then there was no Lingering Performance. Maybe Suggestion (and by extension Mass Suggestion) isn't a round per round BP. Tough to tell what "...does not count against a bard's total rounds per day..." means. I guess my question is after you Fascinate a target AND are successful with the Suggestion what are you able to actually suggest the target do. Does the Suggestion end when the Fascination ends? What happens if the suggested target no longer sees or hear's the bard?

"They arent playing" I don't know what you mean by that. The performance is complete however the effect is everything the text describes. Look at TT the performance lasts for 1 minute the effect lasts for 1 hour. Begin another BP in that hour and TT ends. The same holds true with LPotIB.

The roadblock wasn't created by me.

The creature(s) are intrigued by your playing. You get to make a Charisma check because of the specialized nature of the Masterpiece. You enter into a bargain because of the same masterpiece.

There is a difference between Summoning and Calling. They are not the same.

I understand Legato is not affected by Lingering Performance. Granting an extra 2 rounds to the bargaining period is not a game breaker, in my opinion. I'm merely suggesting if it were added the game won't be broken. My guess is the designers didn't take that close of look at having the effects of this Masterpiece linger for an extra 2 rounds.

Just because the performance is complete, aka the bard has stopped using whatever Perform check required doesn't mean the effect has ended. In fact the effect of the LPofIB states the called outsider is intrigued by the bard's playing. This would mean the effect of the Masterpiece is still "in effect" even though the bard has stopped playing the Masterpiece. He IS able to start another bardic performance. However if he does that then the effect of the previous bardic performance immediately ends. The effect of the LPofIB is in its write-up.

The called creature remains for up to one minute, implying it could stay for less than 1 minute but not more than 1 minute. It could start a conversation with the bard or be disgusted by the bard a mere mortal, that could play the Masterpiece so well as to attract its attention. The initial attitude is indifferent AND the creature is not necessarily associated with your deity.

My guess (20-40%) is the failure rate on the Charisma check not the entire Masterpiece. I could be wrong. It is just a guess.

I completely disagree with your second to last statement "Stat check rather than a gold payment". When I read the Masterpiece I read it as requiring both Charisma check AND "offered reward".

Comparing this Masterpiece to Planar Ally is difficult. Clerics don't have to give up anything to acquire the spell. They get all their spells for free. Bards have to invest 11 skill ranks AND a spell (4th level) or feat. Then use 10 rounds of bardic performance. After making the initial investment they still can have many things happen where the effect will not succeed in their desired result. Why make the initial investment AND the 10 rounds of bardic performance AND still have a cost of failure? The cost outweighs the benefits, in my opinion.

I'm still planning on taking this Masterpiece. I still plan on using it every chance I get. Why? Because I believe Masterpieces are specialized Bardic Performance and not subject to the rules associated with non-specialized performances. Keep in mind I've only studied the Masterpieces in UM.

This is THE gray area.

"This section introduces masterpieces-specialized uses of the bardic performance class ability that allow a bard to do amazing things."

And also here: "In some cases, the bard can extend the duration of the masterpiece by expending additional rounds of bardic performance, just as if were any other use of the bardic performance."

If the Masterpiece can be extended with Lingering Performance then that would imply you can only have one Masterpiece in effect at one time.

However, my point has always been if worse case scenario (using just UM) is TT working with IC then by all means let the two coexist. It's not as if Cats and Dogs are going to be living together in the streets in perfect harmony. The world will not end. The game won't be broken. In other words bards won't take over the game.

I've tried to prove the mechanics of LPofIB are utter garbage. Should the performer get interrupted the effect fails. Should he start another effect while the bargaining is taking place the effect fails. I've also tried to show the called creature(s) can leave as soon as the Perform String has ended. To top it all off once the Charisma check is made and failed, again the effect is wasted. I'm not sure how to figure out the average odds of the Charisma check succeeding but my gut tells me there is a 20-40% chance the Charisma check will not succeed.

Legato Piece looks better than it is. Once it is put into practice the end result has a great chance of failure. So then why spend the 4th level spell, the 11 ranks in Perform (string instruments) and the time and Bardic Performance required to gain the effect? Have them run concurrently. Masterpieces are so specialized and the bard has become so great at performing the chosen musical piece he can use the regular (non-specialized) bardic performance at the same time.

Warped Savant,

Again, I have the book opened and can read the Masterpiece at my leisure I don't need it again. It has nothing to do with the completed performance but the effect of the performance. Why would it say "intrigue" and "1 minute" if that was not the effect of the bard's performance. Certainly it wasn't anything else that intrigued the outsider(s).

For example, stopping Inspire Courage with Lingering Performance continues the IC for two more rounds AFTER the performance has ended. That means the bard has stopped playing the violin, singing, keyboard or whatever performance the bard was using to initiate the IC in the first place. Now if on round two the bard starts another performance then Lingering Performance would no longer make IC linger. Do you not agree it is not the length of the performance but the effect that is important?

Cavall, I disagree with your clarification and the effect of the Masterpiece. Just because the performance ended does not mean the effect has ended.

The effect of the masterpiece is the calling and bargaining. The outsider is intrigued by "your performance" and remains for up to a minute. Regardless if the masterpiece has ended or not, a new one begun immediately ends the effect of the previous effect. Do you not agree the effect of the masterpiece is the calling and the intrigue of the outsider(s) sticking around for up to 1 minute?

It was the bard's ability to play the violin so well as to draw the attention of extraplanar creatures. See the Perform skill in the CRB pg 103. There is something similar there. However with this masterpiece there is no need to make the DC 30+ Perform check.

I ask again, using just the UM and CRB what is the most egregious use of a masterpiece and bardic performance being used at the same time?

Cavall, I appreciate your responses. Thank you again.

My version of LPofIB doesn't say anything about "singing time" nor minute per level. I'm not trying to nit pick here. My UM version (I don't care if it has been changed by the developers) as that is the version I am using at my table. It says "it (referring to the called creature) remains for up to one minute to hear the service you are requesting and the payment you are offering." That tells me the effect is still ongoing otherwise it could stay up to any amount of time. My point is should you start another BP during the "negotiation period" [1 minute] the effect should end. Then why say "...up to 1 minute..."? Once that minute is up (may I point out or at any second during the minute)it is free to return from whence it came.

I have the book open to the page (for reference) every time I have posted about the Masterpieces. I apologize if my version of the masterpiece is not the latest and greatest version of the masterpiece. We are then discussing changes that I know nothing about, and that I want to know nothing about. Please don't ask me to read it again I have read it several dozen times looking for ways it could be used by my future bard. If the masterpiece has been changed by the developers I propose that is another mistake by them. I'm happy with the way masterpieces interact with bardic performance. Should the masterpiece require constant round per round then another BP can't be started without ending the masterpiece. This masterpiece seems totally useless to me using the Masterpiece without exception.

I ask everyone this question: Using just UM and CRB (when Masterpieces were first introduced) what are the most egregious uses of masterpieces used alongside of bardic performance? Assuming they are two different things using the same reserve of power. Inspire Courage and Triple Time at the same time doesn't sound like it is game breaking to me. If I am missing something here please enlighten me.

The reason I ask is because the intent of the Masterpieces is what I am looking for before the developers started spamming all of the current masterpieces we now have. I see how the game can be broken with these non-original Masterpieces.

I agree with Paul. Mark the designer was trying to give us a way it could work. Use exemptions per your own table's taste (so to speak). This would tell me there is no fix except for each prospective bard to talk it over with their own GM and see what they can expect of Masterpieces and bardic performance. This is exactly what I am doing.

Example of Legato Peice of the Infernal Bargain as I understand it. Bard A invests 11 skill ranks into his Perform (strings). He then sacrifices a 4th level spell. He then begins playing on his violin for ten minutes (assumption on my part: he uses a Bardic Performance round for each minute he plays {in case it gets interrupted part way through}). The playing stops. One or more called creature(s) appear. Bard A then has one minute to offer a reward and come up with a service (the deal). At any point Bard A is speaking the creature could go back from whence it came. Am I wrong?

Just because Bard A stopped playing doesn't mean the effect has ended. The creature(s) remaining for a minute would constitute part of the effect. What happens should the bard need to inspire courage during the minute? What happens should the Charisma check fail does he get another Charisma check or does he have to increase the reward/lessen the service? This already seems difficult enough to make work never mind having a BP is a MP is a BP.

Thank you for your responses.

Cavall, I disagree. The effect of the bardic performance or in this case masterpiece LotIB is the spell, the entire spell which includes the casting time, bargaining time, the agreed upon price (magic item, gold pieces, etc.) and the agreed upon service. I don't see how that is not the effect of the masterpiece. Also I don't understand what you mean by "There is no cost on duration..." It has an action of 10 minutes. I'm assuming that takes up the time of the outsider appearing, bargaining, handing over of the payment, etc.

Once the bargain is paid for and fulfilled the spell effect is complete and finished.

Fourshadow,I don't understand the premise of your final sentence.

I understand Legato of the Infernal Bargain works like Planar Ally. My point being said Bard uses that masterpiece to call a planar ally and makes the deal to guard an area for a specified amount of time. The called planar ally can fully expect the effect to end the next time the bard uses one of their other performances thus ending the effect of the Legato of the Infernal Bargain. I'd love any one try to argue this is what the developers had in mind when the Performance is a Masterpiece is a Performance is their belief.

A Masterpiece is only a performance when it is maintained.

I've found a trait I really want to use, Overwhelming Beauty. How do I find the background that it takes to get that?

After a quick look at BoG I now know OB is granted to Celebrities in Bastards of Golarion. So I guess I should ask how find out how to qualify for any given trait?

Thanks

X

I've found a trait I really want to use, Overwhelming Beauty. How do I find the background that it takes to get that?

After a quick look at BoG I now know OB is granted to Celebrities in Bastards of Golarion. So I guess I should ask how find out how to qualify for any given trait?

Thanks

X

Hello All,

I've just finished reading this entire thread. I'm a little bummed that a masterpiece ends once Bardic Performance starts. I feel masterpieces were added because once bards get to a certain level they never run out of BP rounds. The Devs wanted to give the bards more options with their unused rounds. Enter masterpieces. I'm going to talk to the GM about excluding masterpieces that do not need to be maintained.

I'm building a bard for Curse of the Crimson Throne AP starting in April. I had several masterpieces selected. I've been communicating with my GM and he has yet to make a decision.

I see several masterpieces that aren't on the bard's spell list that grant spells from other lists. I'll be taking those with the expectation they'll be used out of combat situations or when I won't be expected to inspire courage in the rest of the group.

Several masterpieces I think will work quite well in theory: Legato Piece of the Infernal Bargain, Pageant of the Peacock, Stone Face and Hymn of the Restorative Harmonics (I'm talking about the Mass Delay Poison effect).

With respect to Legato Piece of the Infernal Bargain, is Paizo really concluding the bargain ends once it is fulfilled by the ally or the bard starts another Bardic Performance? That is just nonsense. The duration on Planar Ally is instantaneous.

We're not using the Mythic rules.

I'll be running this group. One of the paladins (Iomedae) is maxing out his UMD skill to help with casting arcane and other things. The other paladin is starting with a special sword that is +1 magical 2-handed sword strapped to his back, it is called "the Butcher". The character, Pyke "The Butcher from Golgatha" Hornswaggle (Ragathiel) doesn't like to use it as he likes "to give the demons a chance". You see the demons hate this (his words). So he uses his mundane short sword.

We're beginning the very first session this Sunday. I will post a recap and the group make up. Without giving too many spoilers the PCs are very experienced and will use everything and everyone at their disposal including the Leadership Feat to overcome their deficiencies. This group may look like a "kill everything then ask questions later" group but they're not. I believe they will do fine.

The group also starts with a bonus feat at first level. It is something we as a group allow no matter the DM. We call it the Rorryn Bonus feat in honor of Rorryn as he started the custom. Rarely does it get abused.

I think the five characters will do just fine. ;)

I'm playing a Saurian Shaman and I'm looking at aquatic dinosaurs. The elasmosaurus has 20' reach. Does this mean its reach is similar to a reach weapon and has a dead zone (a radius it can't attack)?

When dealing with 20' reach where can I find a template so it is clear which diagonals the elasmosaurus can and can't attack?

Thanks.

Our group is made up of the following

Half-Orc Druid (Saurian Shaman)
Aquatic Elf Bard (Sea Singer)
Kitsune Rogue/Witch
Human Brawler
Human Rogue
Dwarven Fighter

We're just about to take the Man's Promise. So far so good.

I like it. I ran the Shackles and did not like the rum rules. They just seemed to be too deadly. This makes sense to me, more along the lines of real life.

Hello,
What part of Rhode Island are you in?

Our party consists of only two.

A drow noble monk
An Azlanti wizard (diviner)

We're starting at level two. The monk is the one drow that does not want to be evil like all the rest of his race. The Azlanti was recently restored from stone to flesh in the darklands by drow. He then became a slave of the drow monk. Since their emergence to the surface he has learned how to be a merchant in Magnimar. He traveled to Sandpoint to open up his own book shop.

We're looking for players to join a Rise of the Runelords campaign beginning in January. We meet on Sunday afternoons in Taunton MA.