Thats why we love [boccobs] blessed book.
The book itself aint cheap but writing in it doesnt cost a thing.
Worth every pfennig.
Search Posts
Level 1 - Color Spray and Grease
Wow. I must go read up on these spells. They've never been part of my repertoire but now that someone is making a list of all the win buttons i'd better do some homework... Is this really true? Are web and color spray win buttons in pathfinder? I have to admit I've never bothered to read them partly because they're just not my style, put partly because they used to kinda suck... I've never been much of a combat wizard though... Perhaps we can make a separate topic where we list all the win buttons so that they can be erratad and people can start playing campaigns above level 8 again...
Scrabbleshart: (noun) the resulting effect of eating all the pieces from the scrabble game, sharting them out violently, and posting the results in the forums.
I dont know if its RAW or RAI or whatever, but at our table when the eidolon leaves, it takes what its carrying with it the same way anything else would.
Yeah. The question really amounts to: Does the grappling druid have enough time to pull off a pin in the amount of time it takes for a succubus to think "A bear... different... kinky... whatever..." *drain*...
I'd pull the plug on a gm that made ghoul fever somehow mutate to affect eidolons. Although eidolons are not immune to the disease, they do not 'die' the way a native outsider or standard humanoid would. Its clearly stated that only humanoids would turn into ghouls. I'd definitely recommend sending them away before their con fell so low so that you can bring them back with restore eidolon at the ready. Thank goodness the disease doesn't progress while the eidolon is away, since it is also expressly written that when an eidolon comes back it still is under the effect that it was under when it left and has not healed naturally while away, indicating their dimension seems to behave like a timestop....
Oh god... Star Trek reference... And the ship is the HMS Lollipop... She's a good ship And her crew is the lollipop guild... Stop it brain! stoooop!
We had a guy in our group who without fail would always have/find/aquire a horse, inevitably call it sprinkles, and it would inevitably find a horrible end. Now that he's left the group we bought a pair of donkeys and named them after him.
One of the important elements to a wish that is specifically stated in the books is 'if a wish has to be worded in a way that involves metaspeak and game mechanics then its a red flag So actually 'for all things should be smoted' is better than 'all alignments' since characters shouldn't be as aware of the 'alignments' per se. The same way its better to say I wish i was stronger than 'I wish my strength score is 18!' because a character in character doesnt know what an 18 stregth is. So people started doing things like 'I wish I were the strongest person ever' to guarantee the score wound up where they wanted it without having to pick a number and such... Those kinds of wishes became so rife that there is now a VERY specific mechanic for dealing with attribute wishes. Every GM is different but from the published standpoint it is far better to avoid a wish that includes game mechanics if you can phrase it a different way.
They should at least call it something else... If you want to play a paladin that puts convenience above good and death above salvation on the priority list you should al least rename it like 'abnormally super self righeous murderhobo' instead of paladin.
SMITE I SAY!
I worship the god of entropy. Smite all the things for all things should be smoted. So sayeth our lord. Amen.
Certainly a terrasque is not a humanoid despite having 2 arms and 2 legs... a Xorn is also not a humanoid... some fine lines in what constitutes humanoid i guess.
I think the difference lies in the punctuation. If the two sentences were meant to reference each other they would be separated by elipses (...) or a semicolon (;) So its either a punctuation error (not outside the realm of possibility) or a difficulty in compartmentalizing two separate rules on the part of the reader. My personal vote is they're 2 separate concepts, so enlarge person would be applicable to an eidolon, but only a humanoid one.. If you're running a kali, thats technically humanoid, but a centaur or a scorpion is probably outside this spell's reach. (not from a literal interpretation but a subjective one... But then i'm biased. I play summoners.
We actually had this battle in our group, but it didn't involve 2 players.. It involved one. He basically said that marching from fight to fight was boring and that he needed the gm to give him a reason to do anything he ever did... Even to the point that when he was playing a paladin and there were clearly innocent people to be rescued he still was like 'ok... whats my motivation'... He placed a high premium on the gm waxing eloquent and as I like to call it 'painting the barmaids fingernails' sort of richness and detail... whats the term? Lilly Guilding... On the flip side any world that was rich with flavor and any campaign that was rich with detail and plot and intrigue he was given, he basically turned rage barbarian on it. Smash the pretty painting or ignore the plot completely... He voluntarily retired when he finally realized the only thing he really enjoyed about gaming was getting out of the house and hanging out with us to cause trouble.
We had a party with a mage that tended to levitate to get out of range of the low level encounters. Led them off into the tall grass and when the grass started rustling sure enough the mage levitated to safety, only to have a clear view of what was moving in the grass... Basilisks! Tactically if you're being chased by an invisible party you'd run. The party wastes rounds keeping up with you until the invisibles wear off and then its on like donkey kong. Even if the skeletons didnt run and he leaves them behind to fight the party, and even if the party says no, the barbarian is our goal, presumably the mage cast invisible on himself first, which means he'll be the first one in view, and a proper barbarian would make it job one to feed a little ragewrath in the mages direction if at all possible. Still not an easy fight, but I wouldnt let the barbarian just stand there and take a beating. I know they're not bright, but they're not that dull...
I'm glad I came to this thread. It brightens my day.
Yeah. 'suggestions homebrew' seemed like the right place to post this... at least I got that part right. It started out in the input and discourse phase that I was hoping for but it sure seems to go from hmm. interesting thought to 'ha is brokenz' fast. Perhaps these forums are not the best place to discuss such things. I shouldnt say that.. Every post was very good at examining it from all angles. Yang just came to a very stark conclusion about how she feels about it and responded in the snerky style I praised her for mere days ago. Touché
Well two days ago I really used to like how your snerk included class but somehow you're running 100% snerk today. I'm not sure what happened but hey. Thanks for your input. So far i'm level 3 in this build and I have 15 hit points. I almost died from a fall, but if you call that God then maybe warhammer is the game for you I know I shouldnt bite every time you wave a carrot in front of me. I guess I have a weakness for succubus.
I basically blame rifts and 3.0/3.5 and mmos equally for this. Rifts said lets play a game with no limits 3.0/3.5 taught you that the best way to build a character was to start at level 20 and work your way backward because if you didnt hit your prerequisites in exactly the right order you couldnt become the prestige class you wanted to be, and if you didnt know where you wanted to end up ahead of time you'd never be able to become anything 'cool' MMO's taught people that I shouldn't be wasting my time unless everyone in my party is as uber as they can possibly be. The ones that didnt like this trend all went to warhammer because they wanted to get back to the kind of gaming thats 'storming the beaches of normandy with a spoon' The last warhammer campaign I played went even further. We started out chained naked to a sinking ship. Storming the beaches of normandy with a spoon was being to generous. Too montyhaul... Lets try storming the beaches of normandy WITHOUT your spoon! Or your shirt. Or freedom of movement. And you're drowning. And the clock is ticking... I hate both extremes equally but I tell ya. Finding that happy middle just seems to be the hardest thing anymore.
Thats exactly what i'm talking about. He doesnt think he has to for me. He worries that he'll have to for everyone else at the table who's only ever played pathfinder and thinks the only way to play is to OPTIMIZE! Optimize is just what powergamers call themselves so they dont have to call themselves powergamers. So many conversations and forums and collections of forums about how to one shot a balrog or become the worlds best tripper and how being less than optimal is wasting your party's time... Those are the conversations I saw on MMO boards. I've never seen so many powergamer posts. Its the conversations I had when I was 12. Now theres this everlapping one up war not just table to table but forum to forum on how do i make myself badder than the baddest of the bad. Lets create a library of all the baddest of the bad we've ever created. Gamers trying to build the most indomitable crazy and gms trying to make houserules to dial them back. I'm not telling people how to run their games, and i'm not even saying there arent a few people gaming like that at our table... I'm just not one of them. And we have to go to really great lengths to keep that kinda culture outta our game. My gm is cautious allowing the things I want because the rest of the table will take advantage of the changes in the most meta mega way possible.
Matter of fact our gm may already have allowed it. I took exotic weapon katana as a first level feat with my summoner wizard... I don't know if thats RAW, but the GM didn't care. No doubt its less than optimal, but I spent 20 years playing rifts... We've combined occ and rcc so much that I've had players roll up a mutant godling... A godling, but a mutated one... I've been to the far reaches of overpowered and on the other side of that is boredom.
I dunno. I can't see a problem with it but i play more for style than for punch. I'm sure theres a way to make that annoying and ungodly. I just don't care. If you can only have fun dragon punching the planet then you're not at my table.
It be like going Fighter/Wizard and saying that because they both get bonus feats, anytime you get a bonus feat you can choose from either list, then using all your fighter feats to pick up meta-magic feats. Truth be told I bet our gm would allow that. As a gm I would allow that.
Yeah. The whole reason he let me run with the idea is because of all the people at the table i'm the one least likely to go uber-jaeger destructo pain in his butt. I'm not trying to find a way to armageddon his campaign or ruin his day.
The reason we even came up with this was in fact because our gm didnt want to do the 'keep em separate' thing... At first he said 'no gestalt casters period' When i asked him why he said well that means you have some zero prep spells and you've got some spellbook prep spells. You gotta keep track of which one is which, I gotta keep track of the fact you're not cheating so I gotta keep track of which one is which... Me; but i dont want to keep them separate. I want to be able to learn all the spells, and i dont want to prep them in advance... GM: and cast twice as many. Me: no. why would you cast twice as many... arcane spells per day is a 'best of either' not additive. Like hit dice or skillpoints right? why would you add them? GM: normally when you gestalt casters you keep em separate and cast twice as many. Me: yeah. i dont need to cast twice as many... And so he let me hash out how all the freaky combinations would work and he's willing to let us run them... I bring my efforts to the forums because I haven't heard anything like it before and found nothing like it in my searches. It seems like most people prefer the more spells per day and I dont happen to be one of those. The GM and most GMs and myself all agree that (infinite variety+no prep+twice as many per day' is too much power, but 'infinite variety+no prep' (wizard/sorcerer)is not so bad, and twice as many isnt bad as long as its limited variety (sorcerer/oracle). wizard cleric is infinite variety and twice as many, but now you're back to having to prep everything... Variety, No prep time, double quantity
My way definitely leaves less to keep track of both for me and for him. It gets tricky and annoying again once you start doing things like wizard/oracle since some oracle spells are also wizard spells and suddenly he's back to having to keep track again, but nobody at our table wants the hassle of keeping two separate spell lists either. Basically our whole table hates the idea of 'keep em separate' so nobody does wizard/oracle or cleric/sorcerer because you basically havent saved anyone any effort. Some are prep some arent, some are divine some arent... those would be the hassle combinations.
Certain gms would say you still have to wait until you could normally take a paladin spell to choose one but you'd still be able to cast it without preparation so thats nice. I wouldnt be opposed to this. If I brought this one up to my GM he's probably make me wait.
Good call! I'd say with oracle you get the 'no preparation, small quantity bit which now applies to paladin spells and also would allow you to take a 1st level paladin spell at first level since you can both cast first level spells and have access to paladin spells from being a paladin...
I agree. If such combinations are ever allowed to be played this is how it is most often allowed to be played. I simply offer another alternative that gms might like...
Okay... On the same note then, are you saying that they wouldn't get the full progression of spells known instead? At Sorc/Oracle 1, do they only have 2 first level spells known, divided between the two of them? And what happens if they take 2 Arcane spells, are their divine slots worthless? Since sorcerer is arcane and oracle is divine, you keep them separate so you get both. 2 arcane spells and 2 divine spells. You in fact still use the tables of both sorcerer and oracle for 'number of spells known' just as you always would have... This is the maximum spells minimum variety build... Indeed! You're getting good at this!This kind of just made me cringe. Are you kidding? Yes. I'm kidding on this one. A feat and a discovery are 2 different things even if they happen to occur at the same levels. But again... you normally don't do that, anyway. Exacly. He'd hate it if I did, so using our rules we don't. He's happy with it so he lets us play it instead of nuking it from orbit.
More spells per day only makes the gm afraid if i'm already getting the combination of no preparation infinite choices... (arcane/arcane or divine/divine) If you went oracle sorcerer you might be able to cast a huge number of spells per day which he doesnt like, but there are a lot less spells to choose from, so he's ok with it.
What's stopping an arcane/divine dualcaster from doing the same thing? Sorcerer/Oracle or Empyreal Sorcerer/Cleric also have only one casting stat, and they get far more spells per day than a Cleric/Inquisitor. Not a darn thing. Sorcerer oracle is a fantastic example of going full bore spells per day and keeping your repertoire tiny. You've chosen spells per day as your focus not variety. Good on you.And I suppose fighter/alchemists need to choose between taking a Discovery or a bonus feat each even level? Indeed! You're getting good at this! It's amazing how every new thing I learn about your gestalt rules makes it clear that they're even worse than I previously suspected. I agree. Its amazing how good we are at making things interesting instead of creating the four horsemen of the apocalypse...
Now you're just being snerky.
And clearly when most people think gestalt casters they're not thinking either or... they're thinking BOTH! Double the spells AND double the repertoire AND no preparation muahahahahah! Which clearly sends everyone running for the hills. It might sound fun to play but if nobody will let you play it then lets talk about doing it some other way.
Oh no. I'm not saying one is bigger or smaller than the other. I'm saying they're both pretty big, so why do you need both advantages?Would you rather cast twice as many spells per day and have to memorize some and not memorize others or would you rather have a sorcerers number of spells per day and a wizards extended repertoire... I landed definitively on the side of the latter, and the former seems to have a history of making gms squeamish.
How do you know that the cleric//X is going to use the cleric side of things primarily for healing as opposed to buffs/debuffs/summons/etc? They actually can... But if there's no healing left and somebody dies... It wasnt the smartest thing your character did... Or someone else in the party has taken over healing duties with their gestalt build. This is less like gestalting and more like a complex multiclass. Thats probably an acurate assessment... its keeping the power out of the stratosphere so that you can have the fun combination without destroying the campaign. Giving you a way to combine these kind of things without your GM saying 'nuke it from orbit'
Do you allow a fighter/wizard to get the bonus feats from both classes? Shouldn't they just take the better one? As it turns out we do handle it that way... If you hit a level where your fighter is supposed to get a feat and your wizard is supposed to get a feat, you don't get 2. you get 1. So yes. They just get one.
10 is not "grossly more" than 8. Imagine how many spells a cleric inquisitor can throw out if he 'optimized' his spells per day attributes. by the time he hit level 10. Its just a metric ton of spells. And at least at our table thats the dividing line between being able to gestalt arcane/arcane or arcane/divine or divine/divine at our table... Perhaps other GMs feel similarly.
While a gestalt cleric inquisitor being able to cast no less than 8 spells per day by level 3 using the old rules and grossly more if they have even a single attribute bonus towards spells... The first reason is semantics: Sorcerer spells and cleric spells have 2 completely different flavors and are provided to the character in 2 completely different ways... A god isnt going to give you wizard spells and you cant just pull a cleric spell out of the power of your id... Since the types of spells literally have nothing to do with each other they are in fact 'not the same number' the way arcane and arcane or divine and divine would be. The second reason is application: If you're planning on being an x/cleric build he knows you're going to be the healer so having a clerics worth of healing spells and still being able to be a mage isnt 'too many spells per day'. You're just doing both jobs which is what playing a gestalt is all about.
I think I'd rather contend with a regular Wizard/Sorcerer without these special rules than with your special Wizard/Summoner who gets a full Eidolon, all of the Summon Monster SLA's, and can cast spontaneously from the entire wiz/sorc spell list with wizard casting progression. In regards particularly to the summoner/wizard build i'm running we still stick to the rule that you can only have one summon out at a time, so its either my eilodon or a different summon but not both... Just so you know... Also since I don't have twice as many spells it means i'm not able to bring any more summons on to the field as either a regular wizard or sorcerer or summoner could.
Thats why this technique isnt as scary as the other dualcaster gestalts and why I mention it.
Exactly... While a gestalt cleric inquisitor being able to cast no less than 8 spells per day by level 3 using the old rules and grossly more if they have even a single attribute bonus towards spells... instead its just whichever would have been better separately. Its still as good as either one separately, but its not 'double'... With no attribute bonuses you'd be casting no less than 34 spells per day. Who does that? I cant tell you how bogged down our campaigns would be if i were cranking out 34 unprepared spells per day. Everyone up to this point believes in Darkwolf's way of thinking about gestalts. I'm saying
Like i say. Just our tables thoughts on the matter and its been a lot of fun to play.
In fact the only reason I resurrected this thread is using the process that is recommended by everyone here. I wanted to see what people had come up with for interesting summoner/wizard gestalts and I could have easily been a noob and made a new thread called summoner/wizard getsalt: ideas?' which would inevitably provoke the kind of 'go read the millions of threads we've already written' kind of response. So instead i did a search for summoner wizard gestalts and theres like what. 2 of those threads and most of them go 'so broken i'd nuke it from orbit! never never!' And thats probably because summoner wizard is so deadly the way people have been used to doing gestalt casters before... I asked my GM what his biggest fear about dual arcane gestalt was, and he very honestly said you're going to be able to cast too many spells per day... And i thought why? And he responded that dual arcane added spells per day and I thought wow. thats a horrible idea. I know why everyone is terrified of the idea now... How could we fix it? Easy! Stop doing that because it makes no sense anyway when you consider we handle hit dice and skillpoints and every other similar number not by adding them but by choosing the best of the two... So actually I've just followed the correct procedure in the forums and i've decided i have something new to say on the subject. Is that ok?
No the way we run it is if you have a cleric wizard you keep their spells per day separate.
But if you're trying to be a sorcerer wizard the advantages you get from being an infinite learning, no preparation ahead of time kind of caster is a huge advantage already. Giving you twice as many spells per day is just overkill, and when other 'like' numbers don't get added (like hit dice or skill points) then why would we suddenly decide to treat spells per day differently. Our GM is afraid that being able to fire off 100 spells per day with no preparation and infinite variety may be overpowered... I happen to agree. There's no reason to have such power. How long would it take to cast all those spells anyway... Whats the point. So thats how we run things. I offer it so that other GMs who are deathly afraid of dual arcane or dual divine gestalts may have a different way to combine the two that doesnt freak them out... As a GM and a player when I go to make a build I always am careful to remember to stay within the spectrum of whats cool enough for me and whats so badass that the gm is going to want to crush me in a battle of escalation which he will always win. Isn't that what these boards are for? This is the solution we use at my table and I offer it up so others might use it, build on it, or call it just plain silly.
It's kind of a moot point by now considering this thread is over a year old and was dead until Vincent Dagomir felt the irresistible urge to defend the honor of his gestalt summoner. Actually I'm not defending my build... I'm dual arcane... I'm just saying that under the rules we use a dual sorcerer doesnt get double the spells. As a dual arcane I don't get double the spells either and its still a blast to play. I offer it as an alternative way to make it so GM's dont freak out so much about dual casters because we use them... Its just a different way to run things that might make your GM less gunshy of a dual caster. Offering different perspectives is what the forums are all about and I apologize if I happen to have a different way of looking at an issue that died a year before I arrived. Doesn't make the point any less valid.
Defined as the kind of person who would write a thread titled 'whats your favorite min/max damage build. A guy who focuses on the numbers more than the story.
We had a couple guys in our group like this as well. One powergamer who considers his mad skillz superior to all comers, and a gm who likes crankin it up to 11... The whole party sat idly by watching these two go titanic on each other and now neither one of them is with our group anymore. I'm not saying you're one of these two.. but your gm might be...
I'm running summoner wizard myself, but I agree the saves are a weak point... Ah well. Cant have everything.
If the intent is to make races have more pronounced attributes then I say theres no good reason for it. If the intent is for the GM to provide more campaign flavor with respect to people playin wierd stuff I say absolutely.
Our GM doesnt like dual caster classes to have twice as many spells per day so the only way you could pull it off in our campaigns was to be half arcane half divine... Taking sorcerer twice would be the same as just being a sorcerer since you dont combine like traits but choose the best of the two... Thats how we handle it anyway...
There are 6 general questions to answer concerning the elements of casting... Those elements are
In every other way a gestalt is supposed to take the best of 2 like options... So each of these questions is handled independently...
Some combination examples...
My personal build for our campaign is a summoner/wizard so the questions work out as follows.
All the advantages, none of the disadvantages, but at the end of the day i still have weak saves, low hit points, and cant cast more spells per day than i could as either other class.
Thoughts?
Odd that you think summoner/anything is overpowered... If your players tend to play for finess instead of optimization then theres no reason a summoner gestalt has to get out of hand... I happen to be one!
If the recent posts about how people in a bar would react to watching someone get charmed are any indication... I can imagine the horror they'd experience witnessing a first hand RageLanceFlurryPounce... First you hear the scream... then the flying insane man... who lands atop a nearby bar patron and begins lancing him in the chest faster than a sewing machine... Would the bar patron think the attacker was... EVIL?
|