Unity Gain's page

Quick list of what I could find:

Damned; story feat - completion grants a +2 to stat of choice and a +2 to caster level checks.

All-seeing eye, wondrous item - +1 to dispel vs. divination.

Deep Magic, Duergar alternate racial trait - +2 to overcome spell resistance and on dispel checks.

Strength of the Land, Dwarven (magic) trait - +1 trait bonus on caster level checks while touching the ground.

Unusual Heritage, Changeling teamwork feat - +2 to concentration checks and dispel checks within 30ft of 2 other changelings; +4 if one of them also has this feat.

Innocent Blood; story feat - +1 unnamed bonus on caster level checks for 1 min after you kill an intelligent creature.

Mage of the Wild; Elf feat - +2 to caster level checks in chosen terrain.

Scepter of Heaven; magic rod - +2 sacred bonus on caster level checks to dispel magic against evil descriptor or effects by evil outsiders. must be good to use.

Otherworldly Kimono; wondrous item - +4 on caster level checks, +6 if someone is trapped inside it. Best option

Pipes of Dissolution; wondrous item - +2 on caster level checks in 30ft while played.

Shnikes! I had no idea that this list was so long!! Maybe this idea isn't dead? I do know the Pipes of Dissolution won't help, as:

(1) The Perform DC increases linearly with every round playing. You could only play a few rounds at a time.
(2) The pipes would likely have to be played by another party member.
(3) The pipes become unusable for an hour after the music stops.

Unity Gain wrote:

One last thought, too. You could beat the in-game time constraint by having multiple light spells simultaneously.

Light wrote:

You can only have one light spell active at any one time. If you cast this spell while another casting is still in effect, the previous casting is dispelled.

You're right. I picked light arbitrarily for its duration, and missed that notation. But another 0 or 1st level spell without instantaneous or permanent duration (and no requirement for concentration) would suffice, and would still yield a gain. Ghost sound, breeze, Alarm, etc etc.

Plus, if this was heavily exploitable how long do you think you would live if your GM was heavily opposed to it being possible?

Agreed. I like my characters too much to offer such a large reason to end them. Besides...our GM is also my fiance, so I promised her early on that I would not pursue this path regardless of community input.

One last thought, too. You could beat the in-game time constraint by having multiple light spells simultaneously. At this point your only in-game time constraint would come from casting the light spells (hours become minutes). The player's time spent rolling all of those dice is still prohibitive. This would also not diminish the risk of accidentally zeroing out your Arcane Reservoir early on (averages are not as relevant over small sample sizes).

I guess the moral of the story is that we've found an exploit in the exploit class. But it's probably not worth pursuing from initial AP risk, loss of player's time from rolling, and GM wrath. Ah well...it was a good thought exercise.

Though I wasn't completely wrong. As stated by Quatar early on, it's not unreasonable to expect a small average gain by level 11. There would be a multiple-round pause between disruptions, though, and this constraint effectively renders the trick as only technically effective. In reality, potentially hours of every in-game day to fill your Arcane Reservoir, and a string of bad rolls might zero out it out instead.

If nothing else, after that many rolls your fellow players would likely demonstrate the difference between the words shiv and shank. As in, "this is the shiv i have crafted while waiting," and "here is me shanking you with it."

As suggested, my math was indeed wrong. First, I was using the incorrect DC for the caster check. Assume everything else was accurate and this would still be a gain. However, the formula i used incorrectly sums the chances of success instead of calculating them independently and averaging the result. The formula should account for the odds of 1 OR 2 AP gain, and I had it set up as 1 AND 2 AP gain. Rookie math mistake.

Unity Gain wrote:

Perhaps I'm employing the wrong formula? As per dispel magic's description: "You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire). You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends. No other spells or effects on the target are dispelled if your check is not high enough to end the targeted effect."

See the quotation I edited into my post. The DC referred to here is that of the Targeted Dispel (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level).

Yay! The system isn't broken!! I interpreted "DC of that spell" incorrectly, as you suggested. Thanks for the clarification :)

Where are you getting those formulas from? Unless something changes it, dispel magic is a caster level check against DC = 11 + target spell's caster level. I don't see where casting stat or spell level would come into it.

So you'd be rolling:

CL + Cha (via greater spell disruption) + any dispel-specific modifiers
v.
DC = 11 + CL + 5 (via siphon spell)

Simplifying, since the CL cancels:

Cha + dispel-specific modifiers v. DC 16

And that's only to recoup the point you're spending. You'd need to hit DC 21 to make any profit.

Perhaps I'm employing the wrong formula, or reading it wrong? As per dispel magic's description: "You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire). You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends. No other spells or effects on the target are dispelled if your check is not high enough to end the targeted effect."

As requested...Here's my formula breakdown:

VARIABLES:
DC(1PT) = 10 + Spell Level + Main Caster Stat + 5
DC(2PT) = 10 + Spell Level + Main Caster Stat + 10
ECC (Effective Caster Check Bonus) = Caster Level + Charisma Bonus + Any Dispel Bonuses (traits, feats, magic items, etc)

AVG POINT RETURN:
(1 point) * (20 - DC(1PT) + ECC)/20 + (2 points) * (20 - DC(2PT) + ECC)/20

EXAMPLE:
ECC = 11 (character level) + 4 (Cha) = 15
DC1 = 10 + 0 (spell level) + 7 (caster stat) + 5 (siphon req.)= 22
DC2 = 10 + 0 + 7 + 10 = 27

(1 point) * (20 - 22 + 15)/20 + (2 points) * (20 - 27 + 15)/20 = 1.45 AP avg. return for every 1 AP invested.

COMMENTS:
1. In response to Zeroiris, I wouldn't consider it a perpetual motion machine. A perpetual motion machine must produce more energy than is provided (exceeds unity gain). If you only consider the somatic and verbal components as the energy injected into the system, then energy is not conserved. If you consider the material components, and that magic may be an external energy source that is merely shaped by the caster, then energy may be conserved. At this point, it's all about considering the proper system for evaluation. Of course, this is fantasy, so this justification is just as valid as "it's magic!"

2. As David Haller pointed out, auto-dispelling your own spells may be an issue. Perhaps another party member casts a non-instant lowbie spell then?

3. All being said, my DM simply told me no. I completely agree with her.

I'm rolling an Arcanist for the first time, and in reading the ACG it occurred to me that by level 11 you could maintain a filled Arcane Reservoir. The cost? One feat, two Arcane Exploits, one cantrip, and a few minutes of in-game time. Here's how:

(1) Make it to level 11.

(2) Take the arcane exploits: Spell Disruption (pre 11th level)-> Greater Spell Disruption -> Siphon Spell (via Extra Admixture feat).

(3) Cast Light on an object.

(4) Repeatedly suppress the spell using Spell Disruption. According to my math, the average return is 1.6 arcane points. I'll post my equations upon request.

Is there a flaw in my reasoning, or did I overlook anything? Though the idea has been posed a few times in the exhaustive class threads, I've yet to find a definitive answer. Thanks!