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Adrian Marks wrote:

Thanks, emailing my GM now... now he gets to have his headaches about my springing all over the place again after ruling against the speed/jump a while ago

As already stated, any increase/reduction in speed affects jumping.

However, the new rules for monks state that the increase is an enhancement bonus to speed, and does therefore not stack with most other speed increasing effects.

Okay, but just to be clear, this is a totally separate thing from the 5th level High Jump ability, yes?

If High Jump is its own thing, and the +4/10 ft. is also its own thing, then a 6th level human monk should have a total of +14 to Acrobatics to jump. Right?

Also, I hate to be the wet blanket, but is this ruling backed up anywhere by Paizo? I just want to make sure that we're following the true rules, not just an interpretation from a friendly discussion. Thanks!

Well, I think Daniel Simonson's on the right track, so let's go with a giant list, shall we?

Current Class:
-Bonus Feats: Is it just me, or does it seem like Extra Ki ought to be somewhere on the list of bonus feats?

-Unarmed Damage: Yeah, I know it's lower than what a Fighter can do, but you have to balance that against all of the other special abilities that the monk has (or *should* have!). You can also take the Improved Natural Attack feat from the Monster Manual, and that helps quite a bit. At the moment I'd say their unarmed damage is fine how it is (but I'd never argue with an increase).

-Flurry of Blows: Yeah, this was always my favorite ability, and I think it's fine the way it is, especially at 11th level or more.

-Evasion, Maneuver Training, Still Mind: All fine.

-Ki Pool: Yeah, Daniel Simonson's right, this *has* to be Monk Level + WIS. There is no way a monk's current Ki pool is sufficient. That being said, if the Ki Pool does change to Level + WIS, then Extra Ki actually *shouldn't* be on the bonus feat list, b/c then there'd be too much.

-Slow Fall, High Jump, Purity of Body: All fine.

-Wholeness of Body: This really needs to be the other way around...1 point from Ki Pool heals Monk Level x2.

-Improved Evasion, Diamond Body: Both fine.

-Abundant Step: I saw someone bring this up in another thread...if Abundant Step really does work like Dimension Door, then it's kinda lame b/c you can't take any actions afterwards. Also, can the monk take others with him, as per DD? This ability really needs more text for clarification. That being said, if it really *does* work like DD, then it's sorta lame since the primary use of Abundant Step (imho) is to teleport behind and enemy and stun him before he can react (i.e. same combat round you used Step). If, instead, it allows the monk to teleport and still take his standard action, then it's a pretty sweet ability.

-Diamond Soul: It's good, but I'd like to see an additional Ki Power (like what Daniel Simonson said above, similar to the barbarian) where the monk can spend from his Ki Pool to temporarily add his WIS to his SR for a short time.

-Quivering Palm: This ability is very marginal. It's basically Finger of Death that you can only cast once per week with no range. Honestly, it needs to just have a Ki Pool cost. The actual cost would depend on the nature of the Pool itself (monk level or 1/2 monk level), but it *should* be really expensive. Ideally, you'd want to make it cost something like 60% of the monk's daily Ki. The rationale is that yes, you *could* use it every day, but it should be a major decision each time. Sure you could get enough Ki with feats and WIS to even use it twice, but that's gonna cost you.

-Timeless Body: It's fine, but it always struck me as a little late to be of real use. I'd feel better if it was down at 13th level with Diamond Soul. Sort of like there's an entire level where your physical existence just gets *better* and that's it. Seems like it'd be appropriate to the theme of the monk.

-Tongue of the Sun and Moon: Oh man! YES! I can talk to horses now! Who in the world thought this ability belonged at level 17!?!? No way. Tongues is level 4, Speak with Animals is 1, Speak with Plants is 3...geez, a 7th level bard can talk to anything. This belongs at level 11 with Diamond Body. It really is a role-playing tool put into a combat class, so there's no way it should be so late. If it were at 11, it would be worth it; right now at 17 it's pointless.

-Level 17: Well, my suggestions just emptied level 17 of everything, so something should probably go here to fill the gap. My suggestion would be a Ki Power, kind of like what Simonson was saying above. My suggestions for Ki Powers are at the end of this post.

-Empty Body: Yeah, this power is pretty sweet, and it's fine the way it is.

-Perfect Self: Oh man, I've been ranting about Perfect Self on every single monk-flavored message board on this site since Day 1. I'll reproduce my favorite Perfect Self post at the end of this.

New Stuff:
-Non-Combat Options: I don't know, but it seems like the monk could do with some more skill-based abilities, kind of like High Jump, but probably for some of the other monk class skills. Some interaction-based ones would probably be good too, since most monks are likely to dump CHA.

-Ki Powers: I'd say that there should be 4 to choose from, just as icing to your monk that you've worked so hard for. You only get to choose one though, so it's important to make that icing worth 17 levels. Here are my ideas, please feel free to add/modify by your opinion:
-Find the Weakness: Spend 4 from your Ki Pool. For a number of rounds equal to your WIS modifier, all critical threats made with unarmed attacks automatically confirm.
-Like the Wind: Spend 5 from your Ki Pool. For a number of rounds equal to your WIS modifier, you gain the following benefits: You gain the Spring Attack feat if you do not already have it, +40 feet of movement and a +2 bonus on all attack rolls (stacks with everything).
-Fortress: Spend 5 from your Ki Pool. For a number of rounds equal to your WIS modifier you gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC and the benefits of a Stoneskin spell, caster level equal to your monk level.
-Ki Restoration: Whenever you score the killing blow on an enemy, you regain 4 points of your Ki Pool immediately.

Here's my common post about Perfect Self; you can find it in a number of threads around the Pathfinder Beta message boards area:

The 20th level monk ability grants a completely useless form of DR. DR/magic is functionless at 20th level. What could you possibly be fighting that wouldn't have magic weaponry or similar DR to bypass it? This is made even more exasperating by the 20th level abilities of other classes (all excellent, granted) being very powerful.

My suggestion is this: Change the DR granted to 10/chaotic.

Similar to the way that the 20th level Paladin gets 10/evil for being the pinnacle of good, a 20th level monk is so devoted to law that the ability should reflect this.

The rest of Perfect Self is fine. The monk is a very solid class and doesn't really need to have Perfect Self expanded at all, but the DR/magic is totally useless and therefore makes the ability not at all comparable to what other 20th level characters get. At least to match the paladin, it should be 10/chaotic.

Personally, nothing is more frustrating than going into every fight saying "oh hey, I've got this nifty ability--...wait, nevermind, it's worthless..."
This same problem arises with Bards far too often as well, but that's a different thread.

Monks are a combat class at the core (*any* class can be used to roleplay, don't use that excuse on me), and at 20th level they deserve an ability that stacks up against the other 20th level combat classes. As I said, the closest parallel is the Paladin, hence my insistence on DR/chaotic.

That being said, there is another way to look at it: The 20th level monk has effectively "transcended" his normal form, 'leaving the world behind', if you will. At that point, DR/- makes a great deal of sense. Obviously it shouldn't be as much as the Barbarian...perhaps DR 3/- or maybe 4/- at the outside (the Barbarian can double that with some Rage Points).

Bottom line:
DR/magic for Perfect Self is worthless, it needs to be upgraded.

The other half of the ability turns you into an outsider from your native plane (doesn't make much sense, but we'll roll with it).
So what does being an outsider mean? Well, let's check the rules:
1) Can't be raised from the dead.
That's taken care of in the ability text itself, so disregard.
2) Has darkvision
Well, the text doesn't actually say that, so it's hard to be sure if you actually get it. I think you don't.
3) Not subject to spells that specify humanoids.
Okay, spell immunity, that's good, right? Well, it would be if it granted spell immunity to some dangerous spells.
-Immune to any spell with "Person" in the title. Charm, Dominate, Reduce, Hold, etc. And Daze. All low level, except Dominate at 5th. No self-respecting or player-respecting DM is going to try to hit you with Charm Person just so you can say "HA! HA! I'm immune!"
-*NOT* immune to those *same* spells with "Monster" in the title. Yeah. Charm Monster, Dominate Monster, Hold Monster, etc....Make a Will save.
-You actually *lose* access to the usually-beneficial spell Enlarge Person.
-Here's a fun fact: Your 20th level monk is actually *MORE* vulnerable to Chaos Hammer or Holy Smite (if he's LE). More vulnerable. Those spells actually *increase* their damage because of Perfect Self. Does that seem right to you?

Yeah, I'd say that part of Perfect Self needs some revision.

Simple question, how does turn resistance aid undead creatures vs. the PFRPG Channel Energy ability?

In the past turn resistance helped weaker undead from fleeing to easily (being turned) and also not be destroyed. How does it help now - does adds to the save to not flee/take damage?

Was going to place this under cleric, but since it's an ability that more than one class can use I put it here.

I don't know offhand, but the way I've been house-ruling it is that the turn resistance gives the monster Damage Resistance against Channel Energy equal to 3 x Turn Resistance and a bonus on the Will save equal to 2 x Turn Resistance.

If you remember the previous monsters, turn resistance +1 was decent but it wasn't overpowering, whereas turn resistance +4 was awesomely powerful, so this house rule almost reflects that.

Very well, quest-master...I really don't want this ending up in a flame-war, so please don't take any of the following in the wrong way, but I feel the urgent need to pull a Spock on you.

Your logic is flawed.

And here's why:

At 20th level, depending on your DM or campaign, your monk may end up being caught up in all sorts of intrigues that powerful high level characters tend to get caught up in.

Okay, fine, intrigue, whatever. In what way could that possibly be relevant to a *combat* ability like DR? You want the monk to have capabilities like investigating a murder scene or sniffing out the king's political enemies? Give him more skill points.

If your DM is a good one, then you will face more common low level threats in addition to the high level ones. Realistically, and I use the term loosely, appropriate level enemies should be rare while appropriate level challenges are more common. By challenges I mean non-combat as well as combat.

To which I say again: How does that have anything to do with a *combat* ability like DR? I would agree with you that a competent DM should provide challenges to players that don't involve combat. I do...and I think it's great when they sit there talking amongst themselves for over an hour on how they're going to solve this puzzle that holds a clue that the killer left behind to taunt them with! Totally agree.

But again, and for emphasis this time, DR is a *combat* ability. Appropriate-level non-combat challenges are oranges to the DR's apples. Don't compare them, it makes the tangerines feel bad.

With DR/magic, the sudden attack by a couple of assassins goes awry when they realize their non-magical swords are not slicing into your monk. As a full round action, your monk grabs their swords by the blades (grapple) and pulls the assassins closer for a quick 1-2 unarmed attack (1 attack each at full BAB), gaining a +2 circumstance bonus to the attack rolls. Not exactly RAW but no DM should deny allowing this since it's cool and cinematic.

This is a good one, so my response comes in two parts.

1) What the frak are you talking about?!?! Assassins suddenly attack a 20th level monk without even +1 daggers? Are these the assassins that failed out of "pouring water out of a bucket with instructions on the bottom" class? Cinematic? Hardly. Try closer to comical.

2) DR/chaotic achieves the exact same result, with the added bonus of being useful when it's actually *needed*. Your 'example' provides the perfect illustration of a situation where DR is unnecessary. That's not what we're discussing here. We're discussing DR that *is* necessary, b/c your 20th level monk happens to be helping to repel an infernal invasion with Pit Fiends in the lead.

The nation you support goes to war, so they have the party you're in lead the charge. Most of the soldiers beating on you get horrified as they realize you're practically invulnerable and start running away, reducing enemy morale and saving ally soldiers' lives.

I can't help but reference my response in the previous paragraph.

1) The nation you're supporting puts your 20th level characters in the front lines to slaughter enemy conscripts with your world-shaking powers? Very heroic. I've got an idea: Use your 20th level abilities to knock out the enemy's command structure, shrugging off the blows from their guards' magic weapons with your DR/chaotic, and stop the war before it even starts, thus saving even more lives on both sides.
2) Okay, fine, you've provided a combat example for the usefulness of DR in general. Even so, great, hooray, your awesome 20th level ability protected you from 0-level conscripts with pitchforks. Very heroic...very much worth 20 levels. Yeah, that was sarcasm.

Also, the DR is not the only advantage gained. One needs to evaluate the capstone as a whole to determine whether any of it needs to be changed.

Okay, yes, I will agree this is true.

The other half of the ability turns you into an outsider from your native plane (doesn't make much sense, but we'll roll with it).
So what does being an outsider mean? Well, let's check the rules:
1) Can't be raised from the dead.
That's taken care of in the ability text itself, so disregard.
2) Has darkvision
Well, the text doesn't actually say that, so it's hard to be sure if you actually get it. I think you don't.
3) Not subject to spells that specify humanoids.
Okay, spell immunity, that's good, right? Well, it would be if it granted spell immunity to some dangerous spells.
-Immune to any spell with "Person" in the title. Charm, Dominate, Reduce, Hold, etc. And Daze. All low level, except Dominate at 5th. No self-respecting or player-respecting DM is going to try to hit you with Charm Person just so you can say "HA! HA! I'm immune!"
-*NOT* immune to those *same* spells with "Monster" in the title. Yeah. Charm Monster, Dominate Monster, Hold Monster, etc....Make a Will save.
-You actually *lose* access to the usually-beneficial spell Enlarge Person.
-Here's a fun fact: Your 20th level monk is actually *MORE* vulnerable to Chaos Hammer or Holy Smite (if he's LE). More vulnerable. Those spells actually *increase* their damage because of Perfect Self. Does that seem right to you?

Yeah, I'd say that part of Perfect Self needs some revision.

I think that too much emphasis is given on combat capabilities over story-driving capabilities. People often lose focus on the fact that this is a role-playing game with wargaming aspects, not a wargame with role-playing flavor.

Okay, again, I disagree. I think *you're* putting too much emphasis on the combat aspect here. But I will agree with you on one thing, this game is a blend (or should be a blend, with a good DM and good players) between role-playing and combat. Yes, definitely, 100%.

However, you are making a mistake that I see many many people make over and over. You're thinking that the class abilities of a character are somehow driving the role-playing of the player.
Not so.
Any good player, and most decent players, should understand that the role-playing of your character is 80% from the player, and maybe 10% each from the DM and the class abilities themselves.
Nothing should ever stop a good role-player from doing exactly what he wants to do with his character (aside from decency and the other people playing the game, of course).
But here's the thing...we're not talking about role-playing here. We're talking about the purely game-mechanical aspects of a combat-oriented special ability for what is effectively a combat class!
Nothing will ever stop you from playing a fighter who happens to be a bookworm and a history buff. But skill points spent on Knowledge(History) and game time spent in the city library should not have any bearing on his BAB at the end of the day.
Same deal here.
Perfect Self is a combat ability, plain and simple. If you want to play a monk who wears a hooded robe and whispers in the king's ear from the shadows, that's cool. But that shouldn't stop me from playing a monk who's ready to go toe-to-toe with a enemy warlord and his vanilla +5 longsword.

And last but not least, let's put Perfect Self to the ultimate test of 20th level abilities:
Would you take 20 levels of Monk to get this?
No, no I would not. And I love the Monk beyond all other classes. Look above this post, neither would Pendagast, Daniel Simonson, and Ughbash and a host of others on the other three boards with this topic.

So ask yourself, what would you have Perfect Self be that would make it really *worth* 20 levels of Monk?

Traxium wrote:

Something that has been plaguing me since 3.5 and now even more with the Beta:

Perfect Self

The 20th level monk ability grants a completely useless form of DR. DR/magic is functionless at 20th level. What could you possibly be fighting that wouldn't have magic weaponry or similar DR to bypass it? This is made even more exasperating by the 20th level abilities of other classes (all excellent, granted) being very powerful.

I wouldn't say DR X/magic is "functionless" at level 20. If you take a look at a sampling of high CR creatures, you'll notice that creatures with DR X/magic are in the minority (DR X/alignment or DR X/metal is more popular for high CR creatures) except for dragons. Of course, it's useless against weapon-using creatures, but not all creatures use weapons.

Okay, how about those times when you fight other humanoids or <gasp!> other adventurers? That would never happen, right? Doesn't it seem a tad wrong that a 4th level monk could damage a 20th level one right through their so-called "20th level ability"?

Look, you raise a good point about the monsters with weapons, but the bottom line is that you are very wrong when you say that DR/magic isn't useless at 20th level. What self-respecting humanoid would fight with non-magical weaponry at 20th level?

I'm not saying it has to be super-powered, but just look at the Paladin. DR 10/evil. Very respectable, not overpowering, but still quite useful, thematically appropriate (being of ultimate good and such) and worthy of a 20th level ability. I'm just saying bring the monk (being of ultimate law and such) in line with that.

Something that has been plaguing me since 3.5 and now even more with the Beta:

Perfect Self

The 20th level monk ability grants a completely useless form of DR. DR/magic is functionless at 20th level. What could you possibly be fighting that wouldn't have magic weaponry or similar DR to bypass it? This is made even more exasperating by the 20th level abilities of other classes (all excellent, granted) being very powerful.

My suggestion is this: Change the DR granted to 10/chaotic.

Similar to the way that the 20th level Paladin gets 10/evil for being the pinnacle of good, a 20th level monk is so devoted to law that the ability should reflect this.

The rest of Perfect Self is fine. The monk is a very solid class and doesn't really need to have Perfect Self expanded at all, but the DR/magic is totally useless and therefore makes the ability not at all comparable to what other 20th level characters get. At least to match the paladin, it should be 10/chaotic.

Personally, nothing is more frustrating than going into every fight saying "oh hey, I've got this nifty ability--...wait, nevermind, it's worthless..."
This same problem arises with Bards far too often as well, but that's a different thread.

Monks are a combat class at the core (*any* class can be used to roleplay, don't use that excuse on me), and at 20th level they deserve an ability that stacks up against the other 20th level combat classes. As I said, the closest parallel is the Paladin, hence my insistence on DR/chaotic.

That being said, there is another way to look at it: The 20th level monk has effectively "transcended" his normal form, 'leaving the world behind', if you will. At that point, DR/- makes a great deal of sense. Obviously it shouldn't be as much as the Barbarian...perhaps DR 3/- or maybe 4/- at the outside (the Barbarian can double that with some Rage Points).

So, super-long post aside, bottom line:
DR/magic for Perfect Self is worthless, it needs to be upgraded.

If you spot any typos or rules that need errata in this section, please post them to this thread.

Something that has been plaguing me since 3.5 and now even more with the Beta:

Perfect Self

The 20th level monk ability grants a completely useless form of DR. DR/magic is functionless at 20th level. What could you possibly be fighting that wouldn't have magic weaponry or similar DR to bypass it? This is made even more exasperating by the 20th level abilities of other classes (all excellent, granted) being very powerful.

My suggestion is this: Change the DR granted to 10/chaotic.

Similar to the way that the 20th level Paladin gets 10/evil for being the pinnacle of good, a 20th level monk is so devoted to law that the ability should reflect this.

The rest of Perfect Self is fine. The monk is a very solid class and doesn't really need to have Perfect Self expanded at all, but the DR/magic is totally useless and therefore makes the ability not at all comparable to what other 20th level characters get. At least to match the paladin, it should be 10/chaotic.

Personally, nothing is more frustrating than going into every fight saying "oh hey, I've got this nifty ability--...wait, nevermind, it's worthless..."
This same problem arises with Bards far too often as well, but that's a different thread.

Monks are a combat class at the core (*any* class can be used to roleplay, don't use that excuse on me), and at 20th level they deserve an ability that stacks up against the other 20th level combat classes. As I said, the closest parallel is the Paladin, hence my insistence on DR/chaotic.

That being said, there is another way to look at it: The 20th level monk has effectively "transcended" his normal form, 'leaving the world behind', if you will. At that point, DR/- makes a great deal of sense. Obviously it shouldn't be as much as the Barbarian...perhaps DR 3/- or maybe 4/- at the outside (the Barbarian can double that with some Rage Points).

So, super-long post aside, bottom line:
DR/magic for Perfect Self is worthless, it needs to be upgraded.

Seekerofshadowlight: Exactly what part of the "flavor" is preserved by having an ability so weak it might as well not be written down?

Personally, nothing is more frustrating than going into every fight saying "oh hey, I've got this nifty ability--...wait, nevermind, it's worthless..."
This same problem arises with Bards far too often as well, but that's a different thread.
Monks are a combat class at the core (*any* class can be used to roleplay, don't use that excuse on me), and at 20th level they deserve an ability that stacks up against the other 20th level combat classes. As I said, the closest parallel is the Paladin, hence my insistence on DR/chaotic.

That being said, it seems that Tectorman has made a very good point that I'm sad I didn't think of myself. The 20th level monk has effectively "transcended" his normal form, 'leaving the world behind' as Tectorman put it. At that point, DR/- makes a great deal of sense. Obviously it shouldn't be as much as the Barbarian...perhaps DR 3/- or maybe 4/- at the outside (the Barbarian can double that with some Rage Points).

For what it's worth, I believe that it *is* very important to look at class abilities from a numbers perspective. You'll find no bigger fan of the Monk than me (and not just b/c of my irl black belts), and so I think it's important to make sure everything stays balanced not just against the other classes, but against the game itself.

Well, the actual wording of Perfect Self seems to imply that creatures with DR bypass their own DR:
"...which allows him to avoid the first 10 points of damage by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn't have similar damage reduction."

Okay, so go back to my original point...who's going to be fighting a 20th level Monk without magic weaponry?

At 20th level, DR 10/magic is never going to be useful.

DR 10/chaotic is actually functional, it's a reasonable reward for 20th level, and it makes thematic sense for the Monk.

Something that has been plaguing me since 3.5 and now even more with the Beta:

Perfect Self's DR.

The 20th level monk ability grants a completely useless form of DR. DR/magic is functionless at 20th level. What could you possibly be fighting that wouldn't have magic weaponry or similar DR to bypass it? This is made even more exasperating by the 20th level abilities of other classes (all excellent, granted) being very powerful.

My suggestion is this: Change the DR granted to 10/chaotic.

Similar to the way that the 20th level Paladin gets 10/evil for being the pinnacle of good, a 20th level monk is so devoted to law that the ability should reflect this.

The rest of Perfect Self is fine. The monk is a very solid class and doesn't really need to have Perfect Self expanded at all, but the DR/magic is totally useless and therefore makes the ability not at all comparable to what other 20th level characters get. At least to match the paladin, it should be 10/chaotic.

Any thoughts, anyone?

Something that has been plaguing me since 3.5 and now even more with the Beta:

Perfect Self

The 20th level monk ability grants a completely useless form of DR. DR/magic is functionless at 20th level. What could you possibly be fighting that wouldn't have magic weaponry or similar DR to bypass it? This is made even more exasperating by the 20th level abilities of other classes (all excellent, granted) being very powerful.

My suggestion is this: Change the DR granted to 10/chaotic.

Similar to the way that the 20th level Paladin gets 10/evil for being the pinnacle of good, a 20th level monk is so devoted to law that the ability should reflect this.

The rest of Perfect Self is fine. The monk is a very solid class and doesn't really need to have Perfect Self expanded at all, but the DR/magic is totally useless and therefore makes the ability not at all comparable to what other 20th level characters get. At least to match the paladin, it should be 10/chaotic.

Any thoughts, anyone?