Opinions can be wrong, I am free to have an opinion of people of a different race that states they are less than me becuase of their race and are not as capible as me simply becuase of their race, but that doesn't make my opinion right.
However I think monks should stay primarily Wisdom based. It is not "from within" that their power comes from but from a better understanding of, acceptance of, and intuitive feel for the world around them all of which are wisdom issues.
Sorcerers bulgeon reality over the head until it does what they say, Monks accept the universe as it is and adjust themselves to it.
Course they aren't! That's why they live so long. After all a human will get it right the first time. The elf has to spend a decade or two thinking about it, and they still take longer to get the job done. Heck if they had a human lifespan they would die before they grew their first tooth!
How did the monk have powers before anyone heard of star wars again?
Episode IV a New Hope was in theatres in 1977, PHB AD&D is copyrighted 1978. Seems to be same time period. No?
I just realised why I'm so cold on the first idea (Best BAB for monks).
I know people complain about "flury of misses" but I just haven't seen it. Up to four attacks at your best attack bonus plus the secondary attacks would put the monk at 4 probable hits and some suboptimum swinging (after all how does the two weapon rogue keep hitting everything for "massive damage" if the monk can't hit when they have the same BAB?).
If the monk turned around and had Good BAB instead of average it would a huge effect. He would have a chance at seven attacks (4 at his best attack bonus) if he flury's and spends a 'ki' point at the same bonus a fighter currently has. He would get his extra attacks faster than he currently does, and he would qualify for feats such as improved vital strike, which he currently can't get as a straight monk (4 attacks at best attack bonus that do 6d10 damage plus 2 more attacks at -5 and -10 respectively for 6d10 damage, and that's not counting if he manages to stun the foe and has the medusa's wrath feat currently he can only get vital strike and not until 15th level which limits his damage to 4d10 each hit at best). He would also be the only character in the game with d10 hit dice and best saves in all three save throws, and evasion plus spell resistance.
I still think that the best way to give love to a Monk would be to give him a feature (Ki power - round based - or Always active... it doesn't matter) to add his Wisdom modifier to his Attack rolls. Better yet, to his Attack AND Damage rolls, but let's not ask for too much...
In this way, we would have a 'Intermediate BaB' character with a decent boost (without going too far); the ability could be Supernatural, in order to cripple the Monk (again...) in an Anti-magic field area.
Let's call it 'Power of the Soul' or something like that...
If it wasn't due to the fact the monk is so tied to wisdom already I could really go for that. I'm just worried about the first time someone plops down a touch of idiocy on the monk. I like that spell and don't want it to become the "anti-monk special". I agree something needs to be added, but just tacking wisdom to yet another ability doesn't seem the way to go to me.
Ok so the more nerfed you are on BAB and HD the better your saves should be? So where does this leave the wizard and sorcerer (which without magic or against the magic immune are little better than commoners)? Would this also justify giving the barbarian all bad saves since he has both the best HD possible and the best BAB possible?
Personally I don't want to see the monk become combat centric. Granted a monk has alot going for him in combat, but he should not be all about battle (otherwise he's just a variant on the fighter, which is a problem I see with the ranger right now... how many bonus feats for him?). I feel the Average BAB is suitting to the Monk, however he should have other means of improving himself if he wishes too.
On the tangent: Everything in 3.5 is about exceptions. Feats are exceptions to the norm, spells are exceptions, combat is full of exceptions, every class follows the same rules... except where they don't (i.e. HD, casting methods, extra attacks when unarmed, sneak attack damage, bonuses against certain foes, having an extra set of actions (familiars and AC)).
I don't see harm in players having more choices -- especially for the non-casting classes.
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I don't know why this didn't take the first time....
I realize these may be a bit out there, but i wanted to come up with some things that would make the monk Cool. Most of these are combat oriented because i just took a quick perusaul through the PF-PHB. I would like to see more ideas that have a monk feel to them.
What can make the Monk class Better?
Things that need a change/ Replaced
Quivering Palm 15th Level
Timeless Body 17th Level
Tounge of the sun and moon 17th Level
Ethralness 19th level (Truly awesome, but at way to high a level maybe 15th.)
Perfect Self 20th Level (see Stone Skin, or any cheap potion a 1st level PC can get)
Ki Points= Monk Level + Wis. Modifier
Monk can choose which ability (Str/Dex) to use on CMB rolls (4th level)
Bonus feets
Persuasive/ Self Sufficient
Possible Ki Powers (KPs) From spells
Stone skin (DR 10/-) 2 KPs/ 1 Round (Swift Action)
Blink 1 KPs/ 1 Round (Swift Action)
Enlarge Self 4KPs/ 2 Round (Swift Action)
Bigby’s Forceful Hand 1KP
Mislead 2KPs/ 2 Round (Swift Action)
Energy Restistance +5 2 KPs/ 1 Round (Swift Action) Choose one Type
Brilliant Energy 4 KPs/ 1 Round (Swift Action) (As part of a full attack/FoB; Subtract 2 attack, and bypass armor and shield bonus to AC)
Disruption 2 KPs/ 1 Attack (Swift Action)(DC= 10+ ½ Monk Level)
Energy Attack 2 KPs/ 1 Round (Swift Action) (Add 1d6 damage of any one type to attacks until the beginning of your next turn)
Yeah, I know it is mostly combat related.
OK, so, as far as KPs go, I think they should be added in as the monk progresses through the levels. Most are pretty monkish IMO. I don’t expect all of these to be added on, they are simply a list of things that would improve the class. One thing that is for sure. The monk needs more Ki Powers and points to accomplish them.
Does anyone have any improvements to this list, or non combat ideas?
I think the adding of more Ki powers isn't a bad idea (after all if the barbarian can rage and get elemental power why can't the monk focus and do something similar?).
Making quivering palm more useful would be nice too. Once a week is just a slap in the face for a monk.
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all right, i sat down and came up with a list of Ki Powers for the monk. Not all of this needs to make the final cut, but a couple from each section would be nice. I feel all of these Powers have a monk feel to them, that is how they were chosen. Some things made the list because i find it stupid that a mon relies on wizards casting spells at high level play to keep the monk in the game. All of this is subject to review, and nothing is set in stone. Guidelines should be that the Ki powers come around just AFTER the monk would find it useful, but Before it becomes Useless.
Monk Ki-Powers
Rules =>
Spells are always centered on the monk, despite spell description
Caster Level(CL) is ½ Monk Level
Monks Ki Points(KP) are equal to monk level + Wisdom Modifier.
All ki-powers are swift actions
Durations may be different than Spell description, See Below.
Ki Powers (Plus any listed in the PFRPG)
Level 4
2 KP -Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
2 KP - Elemental Attacks=> Add 1d6 Damage of Any one type available; for one round
-Fire, Frost
Level 8
4 KP - Mage Armor: (2 round/CL) Gives subject +4 armor bonus.
1 KP - True Strike: +20 on your next attack roll (exception; Standard Action. Cannot be combined with full attack)
2KP - Fog Cloud: (1 round/ CL, dispurses at end of duration) Fog obscures vision
2KP - Elemental Attacks=> Add 1d6 Damage of Any one type available; for one round
Fire, Frost, Shocking, Sonic
2KP - Glitterdust: Blinds creatures, outlines invisible creatures.
2KP - Spider Climb. (1 round / CL)
2KP - Gaseous Form (2 round / CL)
Level 12
4KP - Elemental Attacks=> Add 2d6 Damage of Any one type available; for one round
Fire, Frost, Shocking, Sonic
Holy/ unholy => Based on alignment (neutral characters choose one. Once choice is made, it cannot be changed, ever.)
4KP - Enlarge Person => As enlarge person except 1 round / CL
4KP - Blur: (1 round / CL) Attacks miss subject 20% of the time
4 KP - Invisibility… Should This be Changed?
2KP - +4 to One ability score (similar to potions of bulls strength, cat’s grace, etc.)
2KP - Tongues
4KP - Fly (2 round / CL)
2KP - Bigby’s Forceful Hand
2KP - Water Breathing
Level 16
6KP - Stone Skin (2 round / CL)
6KP - Mislead (1 round / CL, No Concentration Check.)
Thoughts on the Monk Class
I’ve been looking at the Monk class. I guess since I saw an episode of Doctor Who with some Akashic type monks in it (and an awesome werewolf), and I got to think about why I’ve been cold on the 3E Monk. Not simply from "how good a combatant is he," but also "what makes this archetype better in flavor?"First, the less radical ideas:
1. A monk is a close combat fighter and should have the Fighter’s Base Attack Bonus. I justify this by pointing out that a fighter can have a better damage at level 1 than a monk, which unarmed strikes can only match by 12th level (Buy a Greatsword at 1st level and your damage is 2d6 with a better critical range. One adventure and you can get armor at 2nd level that offers protection equal to or better than a Monk the same level. But even longswords are slightly better than hands at low levels, and you rarely find a +1 Hand to give the Monk [LOL]).
To match the higher damage available to other fighters you could argue they have Flurry of Blows, but I would say “blows” is the right term. You are already have a poorer BAB, now lets give a -2 to that! At 1st level a Fighter is +3 to hit better than a Monk doing Flurry of Blows with each having equal strength. By 10th level the different becomes a difference of five.2. I think the Monk should have some more supernatural talents. Look at other classes in Pathfinder, with Sorcerers growing wings and so on. A monk is honing his sprit and philosophy as well as combat skills, and that should be reflected. This could be things like a Danger Sense that allows a Monk to make a (hidden by DM) Perception Check. If successful his “spider sense” tingles: imminent danger is near. I just dug out old Player’s Handbook, and lo and behold Gary Gygax presented a Monk for AD&D-1 with the same idea, but lost in subsequent editions. The Monk actually gets Psionic powers, including Mind Blast at 11th level. In addition they were kind of Jedi like, with Charm as an ability to do the old “Jedi Mind Trick (a few years...
I have a guy who worked a monk from sixth level to twelth so far. I see nothing wrong with the current version of the monk, nor does the player. And giving the monk the same BAB progression of a fighter would be a bad thing, considering what else a monk can do.
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Let me be clear. i said nothing in my post about increasing BAB. The monks Flurry makes up for Bab with numerous attacks. And your monk is about to get to the Levels where he starts questioning whether or not to stick with his monk levels or cross class. And tell him to take a good look at the class. I bet he does cross class in the next level or two.
It's not a bet I would make, just from the spell resistance point of view. Granted there are feats that make SR very futile (something I would like to see changed at least slightly) however not everyone has those feats.
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I took a good hard look at the pathfinder monk. At 13th level you max out your FoB, Your SRs are +8, Your Attacks Are +9. If you cross class over to fighter, then your BAB score really starts Flying. Meaning you qualify for Vital strike. If you take TWF and Improved TWF, then you get your Vital strike for nothing more than a -2, and still get the same # of atacks. You also get a ton of feats. your SRs lag, but you are already above average across the board. So yes, as is the X-class is the way to go.
Not anything that hasn't already been mentioned, but worth pointing out again for those who say the monk is fine to take 20 levels of.
Spell Resistance and Save Throws are different things (I got confused about which you where talking about in your post), however I agree with the idea of cross classing the monk over level 11 being popular. I might suggest ranger instead of fighter though... you get the track bonus, endurance, and the two-weapon fighting stuff, plus better save throws, more skill points and some interesting abilities plus spells based on wisdom (which you have anyways)... after all what's armor proficiency to a monk?
The Ki abilities are interesting but I think caution should be exercised so that we don't provide them with too many spell-like abilities (and get close to the sorcerer's new niche).
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I understand what you are saying about the ranger thing. Also funny you should mention the sorcerer, i was looking at the monk as a cross between a fighter and a sorcerer, vs a fighter and a wizard, like most classes.
I do not expect most of these spells to make the cut. I simply made a list, and labled them for levels i think they would be useful at, but not over/under powered. I would think that 2-3 for each wouldbe perfect. Maybe alow people to choose from a list. What really keeps them in power line is the KPs. You could use them all up in one encounter, severely limiting future aid. level+wis isn't alot when some powers cost 4 KPs. And the spell durations are cut dramatically, which adds to compatability without over powering the class. I am still trying to iron out the kinks, but i think this is the way to go. Certainly the way it is, the monk gets the short end of the stike with his Ki Powers.
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Right, spell resist, Monk Level+10 SR. Very cool, but high level monsters tend to be able to crush these numbers, granted not all of them. But SR, well i do not take it into concideration. Honestly, Class abilitiesare what keep us in a class, if the abilities suck for more than 4 levels then we concider is a waste to continue past that. And i see nothing but a waste land after 13th level.
(Disclaimer of not picking on anyone, or trying to be pushy. Simply stating an oppinion.:D )
No I understand what you are saying, however since SR is caster level based most monsters don't have the caster level to hit the monk with it consistanly (a DM that rolls 15's all the time however will make this ability moot, and we all know those types exist). It is a class ability, hence why I brought it up... yes it is passive, but it can be very useful too (especially when it stops a disentigrate spell).
I kind of understand what you mean on the monk being between the fighter and sorc though.
I've always kind of seen the "base 4" (fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue)as the outside of a box, and the other classes as the connecting lines to these four points (some being closer to one point than the others).
For instance paladin is the line connecting fighter and cleric, while druid connects cleric and rogue. Ranger should connect fighter and rogue, while bard connects wizard and rogue. With the outsider influence on the blood lines I see the sorcerer as connecting the wizard and cleric (with bais towards the wizard). Monk would connect fighter to wizard.
That's just my wierd little thing though.
So where have we landed?
Quivering Palm needs to be able to be used more often.
SR is good, but maybe a little more could be used (monk level + 12?) to stay effective.
Tongues is cute but really not worth the extra levels.
D. Door is nice but kind of random without other powers coming up before it.
Becoming a native outsider is meh, becuase it doesn't really provide any benefits beyond some minor spells not working on the monk anymore (and others being more effective).
Offensively the monks are ok... there is just little reason to stick around.
Timeless body would actually be neater if the game lasts longer (as it is most "saga" games last for a few years in game time), so the aging effects could be felt more.
Empty Body doesn't really "pop" with the coolness factor... it leaves you scratching your head going "This should matter more... but it does seem to."
The bonus feat at level 14 is frustrating becuase it doesn't really open much up (BAB is too low.. maybe move the feat to 15th level when the monk as BAB + 11).
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Your first point is the thing that will get Jason to not look at this, since he's been saying he WILL NOT change the BAB for Months!!!!
Here's the Monk I've come up with...it addresses many of the problems Xaaon's Monk
I don't think that is completely a bad thing.
Currently we have 3 systems:
Classes with bonus features that are useful, not great though and always available (fighters, rogues)
Classes with specific features that use up a daily allotment of what have you (monk, barbarian)
Classes with spells, lots of variety but possibly limited application at any given time (cleric, wizard)
Everyone else (bard, druid, paladin, ranger, and sorcerer) are combination of these three basic systems.
The mechanics of these three systems remain the same, just different names and specific amounts of uses, or primary ability.
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Again, i beleive we have moved away from +1 BAB. The debate is weather ki powers should be added.
In my oppinion, give the monk at lest as many poewrs as the Barbarian.
Matt does make a good point. The Monks focus is non standard. But at higher levels, grappling becomes a 1/10 chance. Granted it is higher for the monk, about 35%(This was coverd in another thread focusing on CMBs), I guess it is about the same possability as attacking, but they are all or none attacks. spending 3 rounds of a 4/5 round battle just tring to connect is very unfun.
Also most of the Ki powers i listed have some other function than strict combat. Fog, mislead, true strike. They all take something away from the monk, but give a tactical advantage. Either that, or they are extremely limited, and cost a fair amount of points, forcing the monk to ask if the power is worth the cost at any particular time. Especially when one power takes up a 3rd of your points.
A ki pool starting at first level and many choices of maneuvers/powers/figthing styles would be cool
An other way to improve the monk is to give him the same feat progression as the figther has but monk feats only on a class list
There was a lot of feats in 3 and 3.5 that were for monks
this would be simple to do
In a way feats are special maneuvers