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Organized Play Member. 641 posts (645 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 8 Organized Play characters. 1 alias.


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Liberty's Edge

My folks are just starting to explore the parched dunes, and I'm sorta hoping there's an answer to this coming soon as well.

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I'd say that group has plenty of DPS. Either do something to augment that or to make it easier for them to do said damage.

A witch could be a lot of fun in that group- your DPS folks will appreciate things that are easier to hit or don't hit as often (Evil Eye/Misfortune is a great thing to slam a giant with).

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You might check for Charlotte games.

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What about taking Cautious Fighter/Blundering Defense to up the AC of your companions even further while assisting their attack?

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No Posts in almost 3 months! I guess everyone has migrated to or to the facebook group.

But I refuse to let this thread die. BREATH OF LIFE ON THIS THREAD!

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All very valid points. The feat may well be the way to go. Alternatively a half-orc may not be the ideal race then, seeing as his GM is leveling a feat tax to that race right off the bat.

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I'm not familiar with any of the lore of Ustalav that makes them particularly hostile to half-orcs, other than their proximity to the Hold. Even still, you're a skillful character (6+INT/level) and with your stats, you didn't take a hit to CHA like most inquisitors. A simple trait to bump your Disguise checks would probably be a lot easier than taking a whole feat dedicated to replicating the 1st level spell "Disguise Self", which you also have access to.

Unless there is a specific reason to be suspicious, most people don't even get a check to notice according to the Disguise Skill in the CRB, and even then it's assumed they're just taking a 10, so you're looking at something roughly about a 15-16.

I'd find a different feat.

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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
StrangePackage wrote:
How does one do this without massive doses of cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy?

Easy: A sense of humor and irony.

I'd call this a nifty idea, as presented. It's something I've thought about myself in the context of the Forgotten Realms.

So it's for hipster clerics?

"Yes, I cast divine spells, but I only derive divine spell casting ability ironically."

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How does one do this without massive doses of cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy?

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25a Like all good Desnans, it was where your feet took you.
25b Like all good Toragdans, it is where your duty lays.
25c Like all good Iomedaeans, it is where you are most needed
25d Like all good Caydenites, on a dare.

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You might consider a few of the stronger Empyreal Lords pitted against the Horsemen.

Inner Sea Gods would be a great place to look for ideas.

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TWF on a paladin or cavalier are both effective against single targets of smite or challenge. Adding level/damage works very well when you have more chances to damage.

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The Ka is more likely for mindless undead, since it is a Ka Pulse that triggers the uprising in Empty Graves.

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This thread has me convinced. I just gave my players with BAB +1 Power Attack and Combat Expertise for free, and waived the INT pre-requisites for anything that already required CE. Kept the BAB requirements. I doubt my game will suffer as a result.

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I believe I know the exact module this comes from:

this was level 5 of the Emerald Spire, innit?

I played it just a few weeks ago with my monk. I used the reposition combat maneuver to get a squishy gnome out of the line of the great cleave chain.

The question comes down to- can you target an ally as if they were an enemy?

Well, of course you can. What constitutes an ally versus a foe is inherently subjective, and can change based on circumstances. If the party fighter fails a save versus confusion, is he an ally or a foe? Bable incoherently- probably still an ally. Attack nearest creature? If that's his party member, then probably counts as a foe. Likewise, in home campaigns, sometimes the LG Paladin and the CN Fighter may have to have a "Come to Iomedae meeting" that could end in a fight. They were allies, they're foes for that duration.

Long story short, there's no PvP in PFS, but there are always exceptions to the rule. The GM ruled I had to ask the player if he was okay being the target of the maneuver. He said "Of course" since he was getting destroyed. I rolled, I succeeded, the gnome was saved, and I had spent my standard action for the round and couldn't attack the elemental.

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Re-position Combat maneuver.

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So what kind of romance is brewing for tomorrow?

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How much do I have to donate to get the Empty Graves maps?;)

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zrandrews wrote:

You're the 6th man in a party full of Melee's? To me, this just screams out for a bard. You're the man with the spells, the man with the skill, and the man with the INSPIRE COURAGE.

Hit everyone with Message in the morning, and play it like you're the squad info ops guy, giving out positional updates, direction and encouragement to the team. You can get a high UMD and wands for the status fixes. Max out the Knowledges, and let bruisers know what weapon to use.

Whatever you do, don't try to make a Heal Bot. That just...just...miserable.

I'm going to agree with this. Don't worry too much about AoE. The party is going to love Haste and Heroism and Inspire Courage.

Either this or an Evangelist Cleric (if you're worried about conditions and don't want to invest in scrolls/umd).

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ElterAgo wrote:

Again. I've seen little evidence that suggests the allowance of one single optional choice in a game with thousands of choices will make it significantly better for everyone.

But as you note, it is not just one single option. It's 1/3rd of the alignments available, and with those alignments come additional thousands of choices down the line.

ElterAgo wrote:

That is exactly what I am doing. My experience tells me that allowing evil alignments is most likely to detract from the enjoyment of all the members of the group except for one. Taking it away after having allowed it means even that one person is not having fun. At that point the campaign is probably dead.

With respect, it is different. The distinction is "if". You assume the agency of certain players will interfere with the overall enjoyment of the game. That's not terribly fair to players who have not demonstrated they cannot be trusted with that agency. You're operating exclusively on your beliefs, and reducing agency because of it.

ElterAgo wrote:

Now that is just silly. Because a person has difficulty with one single optional choice, he is suddenly totally unacceptable as a GM.
I know at least 2 GM's that do a perfectly fine job with heroic campaigns. One of them can even handle an all evil campaign. But neither seems to know what do do with a mixed group.
But oh well, they can't handle this one thing, so I guess they have to quit. That's ridiculous.

I must have misunderstood your initial point. When you said "4) Say I'm the GM that doesn't handle it well. The campaign is on fire and to try and put it out I take away the evil PC's. Now I am the bad guy for taking away their toys because I blame the players for me being a bad GM." I guess I just misunderstood, because if the players are enjoying themselves, and no one is objecting to this (the GM is the only one with a problem) how is everything on fire? And why would you take away something that everyone is capable of doing and enjoying?

ElterAgo wrote:

Look again. I never said anything about guarantees. I never said there can't be other causes of friction or GM mismanagement. I never even hinted or implied that.

I looked again. You said, and I quote: If I don't allow it I will not be a bad guy and we all have fun.

Perhaps what you intended to convey was different than what you chose to write. What you wrote is a fallacy that underpins your entire argument- that but for the inclusion of this option, everyone will have fun and you won't be a "bad guy". This is simply not the case, and you know it as well as everyone else.

What then about this specific option is demonstrably more toxic to enjoyment than any of the other potential barriers I listed? I'll save you time: there's nothing about it. For every anecdote you bring that it is more toxic, others have anecdotes that it isn't, or that the God-Wizard was more of a PITA than the evil rogue, or that some people who play LN like it was CE or LG like LE and so the difference is minimal, or that mechanical imbalances render the game not enjoyable far more frequently than alignemnt, etc.

Given that, the decision to strip options from players who have yet to demonstrate they cannot be trusted to exercise those options with consideration to the other players is arbitrary and capricious.

ElterAgo wrote:

1) I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at here. But it doesn't sound like my goals (or most of the players I have known) in this hobby. I take part in this hobby to hang out with my friends and escape from my daily life for a few hours.

Absolutely that's the goal. But it sounds like you're saying, when you get right down to it, that you don't trust your friends to be decent to each other, or that should they upset one another, that they wouldn't be able to reason/talk it out and come to terms with one another. That's rough.

ElterAgo wrote:

Has zero to do with my personal beliefs.

If you aren't willing to give them the chance to demonstrate that they are capable of handling what "your experiences" tell you they are not, then it has everything to do with your personal beliefs. If you have already tried and failed with these players, that's one thing. To hold them to account for things they did not do is entirely another. One is a consequence of their actions, the other is a consequence of your beliefs about actions they did not take.

ElterAgo wrote:

3) It isn't my job to push them into more roles. Besides that doesn't have anything to do with the conversation unless I say that not only is evil alignments allowable, but one of you has to take one.

No one is mandating you make them play evil characters. That's akin to saying if we make gay marriage legal, then we have to all get gay married. But if you give them the option, and they take it, then you are in effect encouraging them to play new and different perspectives by giving them a chance you otherwise have not.

You may not find these reasons compelling, and that's fine, but I find that games are enriched by a diversity of players and a diversity of characters.

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ElterAgo wrote:
StrangePackage wrote:
Muad'Dib wrote:

Long ago we had a player who was just hell bent on playing his mage like Raistlin Majere as he was a big fan of the Dragonlance series. ...

Since then I do not allow evil player characters in the heroic fantasy games I run. It's disruptive.

First and only experience, apparently.

It seems a downright shame that you rule out allowing your players to try their hands at something new because someone "long ago" couldn't do it.

For me it is a matter of odds.

Yes, an evil character in the group can be done well with much fun had by all. If have been in a group that did it about perfectly. As well as another that did ok with it.

But that isn't where the odds are. Most of the time, there is at least one person in the group that does not handle it well. Some person that can't separate the players pretend persona from reality (we're all playing our fantasy so if he really wants to play a bad guy that must mean he really wants to be a bad guy). The multitude of people that don't know a non-ash-hat way to play an evil character (there are a lot of players that are ok playing a good character, but think to be an evil character they must betray the party, steal, be insane, etc...). The GM that doesn't know how to set up an adventure for non-cliché heroes...

Never tell me the odds!

Sorry, I've always wanted to say that. But to answer your questions:

1- Yes, absolutely. Any time as a GM you can maximize player choice and agency, it is all that much better.
2- As the GM, it's your responsibility to manage the game in a way to maximize the fun for all the players. If the agency of certain players interferes with the overall enjoyment of the others, then it is your responsibility to talk with them and, if they cannot mitigate their behavior, mitigate it for them. This is not unique to alignment.
3- See above
4- That's YOUR problem, not your players' problem. If you can't handle being the GM, don't be the GM.

But what I take most issue with is the fallacy you premise your argument on. Your biggest logical error is that you can't guarantee that "you won't be the badguy and everyone will have fun." I've been in plenty of games where there were stringent alignment restrictions, and interpersonal friction/GM mismanagement still managed to derail and/or detract from the game.

Can differing alignments contribute to that? Absolutely they can. But they do not, in and of themselves, derail or detract from a game any more than does the existence (or lack thereof) of the caster/martial disparity, the Stormwind fallacy, the summoner/gunslinger/headless clown class, or simple interpersonal friction from having different personalities at the table.

The incentive to allow evil players in your game include, but are not limited to:
1-Demonstrating trust and faith in your players to approach thorny issues in a mature and responsible way that will be fun for everyone
2- Maximizing player agency and choice, which is (IMO) always preferable to limiting options based on your personal beliefs that others may not share.
3- Challenging your players to play a wider ranger of roles and challenging you as a GM to adapt to accommodate those roles and integrate their decisions into your game.

Give evil a chance.

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Muad'Dib wrote:

Long ago we had a player who was just hell bent on playing his mage like Raistlin Majere as he was a big fan of the Dragonlance series. Anyway his Raistlin clone was causing all sorts of table disruptions and it invariably lead to players attacking players.

My character got involved and after a back & forth battle (and a potion I purchase as an insurance policy should he go full Raistlin) my character stool battered yet victorious. My character spared his characters life with the promise that he would leave and never been seen again. At that point the GM snatched up the character sheet and declared his character and NPC.

A wise move by the GM and that details my first experience with "the token evil teammate"

Since then I do not allow evil player characters in the heroic fantasy games I run. It's disruptive.

First and only experience, apparently.

It seems a downright shame that you rule out allowing your players to try their hands at something new because someone "long ago" couldn't do it.

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This thread needs more evil.

What about an affably evil necromancer? Someone who, for whatever reason, has no idea that his behavior is rubbing people the wrong way?

Like the party is standing around the butchered corpses of their enemies, breathing hard after a difficult fight and rummaging for loot, when in walks Mr. Necro,

"You... you don't, uh, perchance, need that arm, do you?" *points*


"Cuz if you're not using it..." *hopeful look*


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Never mind. Nothing productive can come of this.

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Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
For a paladin, Fey Foundling is like the Ultimate Trait.

Fey Fondling is a Feat not a trait. It can only be taken at first level but It is considered the best feat for a paladin at level 1.

I recommend a stat array of:

Str: 20 (racial & +2 Item), Dex: 11+1=12, Con: 13+1= 14, Int & Wis: 8, Cha 16+2 item=18

Traits of:
Dangerously Curious= UMD as a Class Skill (max this and get a wand of Mirror image ASAP)
Fate's Favored- (you said you want to use Divine Favor in battle...I recommend a Jingasa of the Fortunate soldier as well....Later Prayer will be a Go to spell to start boss battles off with.)
Reactionary: +2 initative

H-Fey Fondling
1-Power Attack
3-Greater Mercy
5-Weapon Focus- Falchion
7-Extra Lay on Hands

9th- Improved Critical

Skills: Diplomacy, UMD, Perception: This is about all a paladin needs....I see you, I try to reason with you, I Buff up and I smite you.

Ultimate mercy is a wasted feat in this build. FIrst need 10 uses of lay on hands when your using them on yourself to stay alive and getting extra smites with your Oath. Your not going to have 10 uses left to use on the feat when someone goes down this early. Perhaps wait till later levels when you have like 15+ uses of lay on hands...But even then you can cast Resurrection from a scroll with UMD and not waste your feats on a support feat.....focus on just YOUR combat and not playing front liner who runs off to heal people.

Dude. What is it with you and fey fondling? This is a family board, you know.

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The only major difference between this and the beaststrike club is the single change (as opposed to 5 settings like the club) and the lack of wild shape applications. Would that significantly alter the price do you think?

And yes to Savage Maw. That spell is pretty on the money.

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For my Mummy's Mask game, I have the intention of introducing a magic sword that I want to custom make. I'm modeling it on the Beaststrike Club.

I'm calling it Sobek's Jaw. It's a +1 Falchion with crocodile teeth set into the blade. Upon command, the damage changes from Slashing to Piercing. I want the weapon to function as a natural bite attack for the purposes of feats and spells as well.

How much do you guys figure such a weapon would cost, and what would the crafting requirements be? What spell would you base it off?

Any help would be appreciated, this is my first magic item I've designed.

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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
David M Mallon wrote:
Lesson: never name your NPCs things that are homophonic or easily rhymable with everyday words and phrases.
Or something that can be twisted into something that sounds dirty.

This is truth. In my Jade Regent campaign, we were hot on the trail (in book two) of Asvig Longthews. Of course, with the way his name is pronounced it took very little prompting for the halfling cleric to kick the door in and demand to know which of the people inside was "butt fruit."

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What the smurf?

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The gnome was in the employ of a powerful force of some kind, who wanted his construct army for their own nefarious purposes. The PCs must climb the ladder to deal with this newly emerged threat?

A rancid swamp? Sounds like prime Black dragon real estate.

The golems he had created were the only things keeping a local threat in check (hobgoblin tibe/Cadre of dark wizards from whom the gnome stole many of his necromantic secrets/Undead creature who was going to be using many of the raw materials of the biotech critters for food and/or progent)?

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Something to think about-

Here's a list of the deities that allow for Heroism subdomain

Are you more interested in Gorum or in Heroism?

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Easy there Fruian- fondling fey is a crime in certain places

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They have fewer articles, less information, and more persistent errors than

They must have a better Google algorithm because they come up higher in the search engines, but there is no comparison between the two as far as information, sourcing, and depth of detail.

Liberty's Edge is remarkably useless.

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Apple Blossom wrote:

I like the idea of a frog that has been exposed to and mutated from Numerian oozes. Perhaps play it as an Alchemist and build towards the Master Chymst.

Or... get a banjo and take levels of bard while singing about rainbows.

Kremit D'Forg.

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Neo2151 wrote:

I should clarify that I don't think Clerics are a *bad* class (the only bad classes, IMO, are Fighters, Monks, and Rogues).

I just think if you're looking to fill any of the roles they can fill, you'll always have a better option available.

Divine Self-Buffer? Paladin, Inquisitor, and Warpriest are all superior to Cleric.
Party Buffer/Healer? Oracles and Shaman are both superior to Cleric here.
Debuffing? It's a risky strategy for anyone, but Arcane tends to do it more reliably.
Summoner? Arcane just simply does it better, whether it's a Conjurer, a Summoner, an Arcanist, etc.
Necromancy? You're pretty good here, but get to deal with all the roleplay issues. Aaaand Oracle does it better.

And if the default argument in their favor is that, "you can do all those things!" Well, you really can't. It's possible, sure, but being unfocused in your goal tends to increase the odds that you won't have prepared the right tool for the job when you need it. (It's why Wizards automatically have Scribe Scroll, after all.)

That said, the cleric can do any of these as necessary. The mild mannered support cleric can buff himself into a combatant, the bad-touch debuffer can repair damage and lift conditions...

Many classes can perform the individual tasks as well or better, but none can take 15 minutes of prayer and fill a totally different role as required.

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How was it?

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The Druid in my Skulls and Shackles campaign went with constrictor. When appropriately buffed, it gave my ridiculously optimized CAGM barbarian a run for his money in the DPR department.

It gets my vote.

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My players are The True Seekers. Their ranks are:

Fortuitous, a Halfling Paladin of Sarenrae
Yum Tog, an unscrupulous Half-orc barbarian
Aswed Tau, a Tiefling rogue destined for great things
Izof, a far-flung Varisian Pilgrim of Desna
Hrynn, a Gnoll inquisitor of Horus.

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Underground and Urban.

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yazo wrote:
What do i do?

You seem to ask a question and dismiss the entirety of the responses for some reason or other.

You are pigeonholing yourself unnecessarily by being "The skill guy." There is no skill in the game that can't be overcome by creativity, blunt force trauma, or magic. And you have magic, too.

Combat is a major part of the game. Learn to contribute in it or make sure the other players are fine dragging around a non-contributor. Can't contribute to damage in combat? Cast grease on the badguy's sword, or on the floor. Grab a longspear and make attacks of opportunity, or use the aid another action. Hell, maybe just don't contribute at all. That can be an enjoyable RP decision- maybe your guy is a total coward, or a pacifist, or has some other foible about participating in combat?

It seems like you're really upset that the GM isn't letting you utilize your skills. Talk to him. Maybe see if he won't replace "simple doors" with "strong doors." Work in more social encounters, or traps.

You have ridiculous stats- the equivalent of a 45 point buy. You can find a way to make it work.

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Westphalian_Musketeer wrote:

d6 classes roll 1d4+2, d8 classes roll 1d6+2, d10 classes roll 1d8+2, and d12 classes roll 1d10+2

There's still a significant amount of variation, and it's riskier the higher you go along the hit die, as all classes have a minimum of three.

Not bad. I may go with that.

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We go with alternatives- either the PFS style (d6 gets 4, d8 gets 5, d10 gets 6, d12 gets 7)


You roll yours, and the GM rolls the same in secret. If you don't like your roll, you can take the GM's roll.

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The music from the HBO series ROME was surprisingly good.

Likewise the soundtrack from The Last Temptation of Christ.

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Hilariously bad rolls all night nearly killed my party a few different times. Believe it or not, the dolls were the most dangerous critters.

We have at the table:

A Div-Spawn Tiefling Rogue (later going to Sorcerer)
A Half-Orc Barbarian
A Human Varisian Pilgrim of Desna
A Halfling Paladin of Sarenrae
A Gnoll Inquisitor of Horus

They're going by the name "The True Seekers."

It's a good group, but they rolled for absolute crap last night. We did the lottery and the first tomb pretty quickly, and they looted most everything they could.

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I bet this thread didn't see this post coming a mere 5 years after its demise.

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Summons. They'll find traps for you.

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Kysus Arelius wrote:

Curious, but why has there been a few mentions of Wild Child Brawler but no mention of Nature Fang Druid?

** spoiler omitted **

1) They get the Studied Target Slayer ability
2) They get 1d6 Sneak Attack
3) They get Slayer Talents (able to get Ranger Combat Style feats via this)
4) AC from Druid list at full BAB
5) Full caster level (Barkskin, Greater Magic Fang, Animal Growth, + more)

Not trying to create a Tarzan replica but more of a Wild clawing/biting character like Gau from FF6 or San from Princess Mononoke. Does the above build seem doable and are the stats ok? I'll have to buy a Headband of Wisdom +2 around level 6 to be able to cast 5th and 6th level spells later on. My DC's will be low, will I be losing out a lot on the Druid's offensive spells?

You may not have noticed, but you can't get Eldritch Claws at level 7 since you won't have +6 BAB. That may impact your decision making.

I think you're not getting the advice you're looking for because of how you phrased the question. Most people think of tarzan as being loin-cloth clad and grappling/pummeling/stabbing with his knife, not as a creature that grew claws and fangs.

There are a number of very good options in the Advanced Class Guide for what you're trying to accomplish. The Mad Dog Barbarian is probably the best option from what you've got this far, with Beast Totem, but you'll be relying on weapons and your base stats until you get to rage at 4th level.

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You could take Additional Traits as a feat to pick up Magical Knack to improve your CL, or save up money for an Orange Prism Ioun Stone, to offset it.

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